AAC Flying Pay change
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
This deserves to stay up until one of the Falaise Road Assault Group (FRAG)SO1's feels the need to explain how 3,000 hours P1 (750 Night) on a staff desk allows you to shaft or ignore the new blood in the Corps. Although when you need MapQuest to get to the Hangars, why would you even think this was an issue? For everyone who wondered what lowering the Director's post to 1 Star from 2 Star would mean in real terms, all those years ago, here's a good example. Singe would have relished a challenge like this.
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Singe
I'm afraid the days of the Corps having real characters with a geniene interest in its future are sadly gone. I wonder what the likes of Gen. Lytle would have made of this whole sorry affair? 
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A letter to the AFPRB, explaining that over 300 aircrew in the AAC have, in effect, received a pay cut this year, should give us another line of development to pursue.
Even better, 300 letters, each describing the precise figure of the financial loss that D/AAvn/31/003 is going to cost an entire generation of Army pilots, should really ram the point home. (For those of you who have not yet calculated it, I've written a spreadsheet to work out the actual loss in pay. PM me and I'll send you a copy).
At the very least, we must ask them to visit Middle Wallop and/or Wattisham during 2007 to get an opportunity to make our voices heard, and not those cowardly yes-men at DAAvn who have lost any right to represent our best interests.
Admittedly, it is the long game, but continued and persistent pressure is our best bet. I recommend addressing your letters to AVM (Retd) Ian M Stewart, CB - as a former Harrier pilot, he should be able to convince the remainder of the panel that this policy is against the long-term interests of Defence, and that the SO1s at DAAVn and PS10 have quite simply got it wrong about our intentions for continued service in the face of such betrayal. Professor David Greenaway, the chairman of the AFPRB, should also be copied on any letters that are written.
Letters for the AFPRB should be sent to the following address:
c/o Mr P Bush
AFPRB Secretariat
OME
6th Floor, Bay 669
Kingsgate House
66-74 Victoria Street
LONDON
SW1E 6SW
There is a comments form available at http://www.ome.uk.com/contact.cfm although I suspect that a proper letter is more likely to have the desired effect.
Do this - my letter alone will not make a difference. 300 will.
Even better, 300 letters, each describing the precise figure of the financial loss that D/AAvn/31/003 is going to cost an entire generation of Army pilots, should really ram the point home. (For those of you who have not yet calculated it, I've written a spreadsheet to work out the actual loss in pay. PM me and I'll send you a copy).
At the very least, we must ask them to visit Middle Wallop and/or Wattisham during 2007 to get an opportunity to make our voices heard, and not those cowardly yes-men at DAAvn who have lost any right to represent our best interests.
Admittedly, it is the long game, but continued and persistent pressure is our best bet. I recommend addressing your letters to AVM (Retd) Ian M Stewart, CB - as a former Harrier pilot, he should be able to convince the remainder of the panel that this policy is against the long-term interests of Defence, and that the SO1s at DAAVn and PS10 have quite simply got it wrong about our intentions for continued service in the face of such betrayal. Professor David Greenaway, the chairman of the AFPRB, should also be copied on any letters that are written.
Letters for the AFPRB should be sent to the following address:
c/o Mr P Bush
AFPRB Secretariat
OME
6th Floor, Bay 669
Kingsgate House
66-74 Victoria Street
LONDON
SW1E 6SW
There is a comments form available at http://www.ome.uk.com/contact.cfm although I suspect that a proper letter is more likely to have the desired effect.
Do this - my letter alone will not make a difference. 300 will.
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I have recently had the party line from DAAvn and his staff regarding the state of the nation. I am appalled by these recent changes to flying pay and like so many, it is another nail in the coffin lid for me. That isn’t why I’m posting though. I think that before we all shoot the messenger, it isn’t the messenger who has caused the current situation. 
The Army is broke; no money anywhere and the AAC consumes a vast amount of the Army budget, even more so now the Apache has arrived. Now consider that there are many well established Regiments with friends in very high places who will no doubt have pointed, where necessary, those in the direction of a cost cutting freebie in order to save their own plans and desirable improvements for their own Regiment. I would imagine that with the exception of 16 Bde and now 3 Cdo Bde (thanks to the Apache in Helmand) I don’t think that the AAC has too many friends in Town.
I can tell you that there is work in being done to rectify what has been done. I would imagine this change came as a real googly to those in the crease. It doesn’t minimise the impact to those directly affected. More communication about this would not have gone amiss, indeed this forum is read by those in DAAvn; and though unconventional, a post on here would touch the masses.
Greenielynxpilot, great post
The Army is broke; no money anywhere and the AAC consumes a vast amount of the Army budget, even more so now the Apache has arrived. Now consider that there are many well established Regiments with friends in very high places who will no doubt have pointed, where necessary, those in the direction of a cost cutting freebie in order to save their own plans and desirable improvements for their own Regiment. I would imagine that with the exception of 16 Bde and now 3 Cdo Bde (thanks to the Apache in Helmand) I don’t think that the AAC has too many friends in Town.
I can tell you that there is work in being done to rectify what has been done. I would imagine this change came as a real googly to those in the crease. It doesn’t minimise the impact to those directly affected. More communication about this would not have gone amiss, indeed this forum is read by those in DAAvn; and though unconventional, a post on here would touch the masses.
Greenielynxpilot, great post
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QHI 656,
Interesting post - but I must challenge you on your thought process. I couldn't give a monkeys bum for the rest of the Army and how Apache is viewed in town or who is high up in which Regimental MAFIA ruling the roost.
Based on your assumptions then we, as the British Army should have united against the RAF and RN and gone for the jugular on those areas of Defence Spending that are not contributing to real world operations or training for operations. We could all look around and identify the areas (and I do not for one moment think I am having a sideways swipe at Typhoon, MRA4, T45 or the new carriers, because they will vindicate themselves I am sure, just as we did after many a year of virtually everyone doubting us and the Apache.
The point that I think you have missed QHI is that I am more than content to take a real time pay cut for the Defence of the Country (did I just say that!!) - seriously, if that was what our lords and masters had agreed, I would have sucked it up and felt the pain.
But can someone please tell me that if Defence (not just the Army echelons of power) is that broke, why didn't HQ DAAvn stand up to the treasury, top brass with the very simple fact that on operations, here and now we are fighting alongside both RAF and RN aviators, in exactly the same uniform and under the same command.
So if Defence is that broke why doesn't HQ DAAvn and the Army tell the RN and RAF to backfill their shortfall with this so called (still unconfirmed') 'surplus' of Army pilots. When we are supposedly working for the same company under a Joint Personnel Agency can individuals get paid different amounts despite being of the same rank, length of service and professional qualification?
It has nothing to do with the Army/Defence being broke - it is the fact that I am in Joint Helicopter Command and not only do I see myself and my Army Air Corps colleagues not getting any FRI for our efforts, but I also have to take a real pay cut over the years ahead.
Where was DAAvn's Staff when the other 2 Services were obviously fighting their corner - yet again back to being Teeny Weenie Airways, with wheezie boy in the corner!
Sorry QHI - you want us to fight together then pay us together - this is just so deviscive and can only breed ill feeling.
Bottom line QHI - if the Army is broke and cannot afford us, then I am sure that the RAF/RN will find some funds for us and look after its people in a much better way than HQ DAAvn.
Interesting post - but I must challenge you on your thought process. I couldn't give a monkeys bum for the rest of the Army and how Apache is viewed in town or who is high up in which Regimental MAFIA ruling the roost.
Based on your assumptions then we, as the British Army should have united against the RAF and RN and gone for the jugular on those areas of Defence Spending that are not contributing to real world operations or training for operations. We could all look around and identify the areas (and I do not for one moment think I am having a sideways swipe at Typhoon, MRA4, T45 or the new carriers, because they will vindicate themselves I am sure, just as we did after many a year of virtually everyone doubting us and the Apache.
The point that I think you have missed QHI is that I am more than content to take a real time pay cut for the Defence of the Country (did I just say that!!) - seriously, if that was what our lords and masters had agreed, I would have sucked it up and felt the pain.
But can someone please tell me that if Defence (not just the Army echelons of power) is that broke, why didn't HQ DAAvn stand up to the treasury, top brass with the very simple fact that on operations, here and now we are fighting alongside both RAF and RN aviators, in exactly the same uniform and under the same command.
So if Defence is that broke why doesn't HQ DAAvn and the Army tell the RN and RAF to backfill their shortfall with this so called (still unconfirmed') 'surplus' of Army pilots. When we are supposedly working for the same company under a Joint Personnel Agency can individuals get paid different amounts despite being of the same rank, length of service and professional qualification?
It has nothing to do with the Army/Defence being broke - it is the fact that I am in Joint Helicopter Command and not only do I see myself and my Army Air Corps colleagues not getting any FRI for our efforts, but I also have to take a real pay cut over the years ahead.
Where was DAAvn's Staff when the other 2 Services were obviously fighting their corner - yet again back to being Teeny Weenie Airways, with wheezie boy in the corner!
Sorry QHI - you want us to fight together then pay us together - this is just so deviscive and can only breed ill feeling.
Bottom line QHI - if the Army is broke and cannot afford us, then I am sure that the RAF/RN will find some funds for us and look after its people in a much better way than HQ DAAvn.
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AQHI656
I think the clue is in the first line of your post. "The party line"
Since when has a party line actually involved the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?. If it ever did then there would be no requirement for a "party line", would there ?
In the big scheme of things (Defence Budgets and spending) the amount of money saved by these new interpretations of old rules really is insignificant. The real life cost of training new aircrew will far outweight any perceived saving.
The question is even more simple than people are making out.
Q. Why are the rules concerning flying pay different for qualified pilots doing the same job under the same Command for the same Queen.
A. ( DAAvn staff to insert implausible long winded answer here)
I think the clue is in the first line of your post. "The party line"
Since when has a party line actually involved the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?. If it ever did then there would be no requirement for a "party line", would there ?
In the big scheme of things (Defence Budgets and spending) the amount of money saved by these new interpretations of old rules really is insignificant. The real life cost of training new aircrew will far outweight any perceived saving.
The question is even more simple than people are making out.
Q. Why are the rules concerning flying pay different for qualified pilots doing the same job under the same Command for the same Queen.
A. ( DAAvn staff to insert implausible long winded answer here)
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I wasn't expecting that!
Front Seater, normal service resumes 
Mate I'm not saying I agree with what was said, indeed it has added another crack in my resolve, flying pay cuts, poor flying rates, forced move to Wattashambles does not a retention policy make
I simply injected the idea that DAAvn is working to resolve the issue, they didn't request the change, but they do have to handle the fall-out.
Ron, what makes the whole joint thing even worse is that in the RAF, NAVs and pilots get paid the rate of flying pay, now I'm unsure about RN front seat crew, maybe somebody on this forum could advise. Yet two pilots in an Army aircraft, (including Apache) are rated differently. Shocking!
Mate I'm not saying I agree with what was said, indeed it has added another crack in my resolve, flying pay cuts, poor flying rates, forced move to Wattashambles does not a retention policy make I simply injected the idea that DAAvn is working to resolve the issue, they didn't request the change, but they do have to handle the fall-out.
Ron, what makes the whole joint thing even worse is that in the RAF, NAVs and pilots get paid the rate of flying pay, now I'm unsure about RN front seat crew, maybe somebody on this forum could advise. Yet two pilots in an Army aircraft, (including Apache) are rated differently. Shocking!
Last edited by AHQHI656SQN; 3rd Apr 2007 at 16:44. Reason: None
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RN Pilots are paid the same rates as RAF, whether they fly a Harrier a SeaQueen or a desk.
Incidentally, they also still get FRI, 50k obviously as there are no oiks about, whether they fly a Harrier, SeaQueen or a desk.
Ohhh or a Lynx!
Not sure about RM but can't see it being much different.
Incidentally, they also still get FRI, 50k obviously as there are no oiks about, whether they fly a Harrier, SeaQueen or a desk.
Ohhh or a Lynx!
Not sure about RM but can't see it being much different.
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Sorry AHQHI, I realised after i posted that you probably meant that, I will check with my RN overpaid comrades and get back to you (after Easter as I'm buggering orffff) 
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I have had a letter back from my MP saying he is writing to the Minister of Defence about this issue . I've also written to BAFF (British Armed Forces Federation) asking them for assistance as I'm considering taking legal action.
Thanks for the info on AFPRB, I'll write to them shortly.
Cheers.
. I've also written to BAFF (British Armed Forces Federation) asking them for assistance as I'm considering taking legal action. Thanks for the info on AFPRB, I'll write to them shortly.
Cheers.
Nigerian In Law
Variation On A Theme
I passed out of Wallop in the summer of '86 as an NCO pilot. There were four officers and five (as you had to be then) SNCOs.
The NCOs went to squadrons flying around 300-400 hours a year. One of them went to NI flying up to 700. The officers were expected to fly less than half that. We got NCO flying pay, the officers got a much higher officer's rate which applied to all three services.
Mainly due to Maggie's "Options For Change" Forces Review, I did the compulsory four years and left. Since then I've been flying for exactly the same pay as anyone else with the same level of experience etc. The way it should be. And some of the posts here are on the money (excuse the pun), there are plenty of good paying jobs on the outside.
Now it appears that even with complex types like Apache to fly, all AAC aircrew are being shafted
NEO
The NCOs went to squadrons flying around 300-400 hours a year. One of them went to NI flying up to 700. The officers were expected to fly less than half that. We got NCO flying pay, the officers got a much higher officer's rate which applied to all three services.
Mainly due to Maggie's "Options For Change" Forces Review, I did the compulsory four years and left. Since then I've been flying for exactly the same pay as anyone else with the same level of experience etc. The way it should be. And some of the posts here are on the money (excuse the pun), there are plenty of good paying jobs on the outside.
Now it appears that even with complex types like Apache to fly, all AAC aircrew are being shafted
NEO
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Greenie,
Your obviously the main focus on here and I admire your posts that show complete determination and I for one support you fully.
I have drafted a few letters and need guidance on who and where to send them so that they are hitting the same places that yours are hitting. I also know of one person who has sought legal advice on the matter and is waiting for the next stage so fingers crossed we may be able to get some answers and rectification on this damning subject.
Anybody else who has an avid interest in this topic whould be following the lead set by greenie as it is in your best interests and certainly affects your wallet over the next few years.
Lets keep it up without failing to do our jobs but certainly maintaining our displeasure in the way in which we are being treated.
Lets move forward in unity.
Your obviously the main focus on here and I admire your posts that show complete determination and I for one support you fully.
I have drafted a few letters and need guidance on who and where to send them so that they are hitting the same places that yours are hitting. I also know of one person who has sought legal advice on the matter and is waiting for the next stage so fingers crossed we may be able to get some answers and rectification on this damning subject.
Anybody else who has an avid interest in this topic whould be following the lead set by greenie as it is in your best interests and certainly affects your wallet over the next few years.
Lets keep it up without failing to do our jobs but certainly maintaining our displeasure in the way in which we are being treated.
Lets move forward in unity.
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Absurd!
I have been following threads on this site for some time now but have always been reluctant to get involved however this thread has broke me.
I would like to say that it is sad that the last post prior to this one is almost a week old. It seems to me either people have now got bored with it or like myself do not always believe in airing their views in this manor, either way the members of this site at the higher end of the CoC I’m sure will be sitting behind their desks thinking “well that’s the worst of it over and its all calm waters from here on“. I beg to differ. I’m hoping that the reason there has been little interest recently is that individuals are carefully planning their future on this one and seeking some sort of Legal Advice.
It would be a shame if DAAVN was again allowed to sell us down the river with everyone sitting back and accepting yet another change to the regulations which where in force when most of the worst affected individuals qualified from Middle Wallop.
I have been informed by a reliable source that Comd JHC himself has recently visited one of our Regiments to talk about FSI following a recent accident, and this was raised as the first discussion point in what was perceived as an open forum. He left having discussed nothing about FSI but did say the following comments on this matter:
“This is in to stay and is very unlikely it will be changed or rectified, there has been no changes made to the current regulations as this has always been the regulations on flying pay which has been over looked for such a long time”
“The Army Air Corps is currently over strength with pilots so a few pilots leaving will not effect the manning a great deal, it will take a lot more than normal to leave before any sort of FRI would be considered by the AFPRB, and it is unlikely that the amount of pilots who will leave would be any where near the amount required”
“DAAVN will be publishing an article in the next DAAVN Bulletin to explain in more clearer terms the new regulations and why it has now come into force”
I have no reason to believe that the quotes above were not said but I’m sure if this is not a true and accurate account then someone in the higher CoC will be more than happy to correct me and give us all an accurate account of what exactly was said on this matter.
Hearing the above, I now accept that this is not going to be corrected as we all are hoping, and I’m sure if it is the case where the Army Air Corps is so over manned with pilots then they will not be too affected by me Terminating my service and taking the leap into the civilian market where life will be a lot more pleasant and secure for both myself and my family.
I now intend to inform my CoC immediately on return from Easter Leave of my intentions.
It has been a pleasure serving and flying in the Army Air Corps, but I will now happily take my experience to someone who will not only benefit from it, but also respect it.
I would like to say that it is sad that the last post prior to this one is almost a week old. It seems to me either people have now got bored with it or like myself do not always believe in airing their views in this manor, either way the members of this site at the higher end of the CoC I’m sure will be sitting behind their desks thinking “well that’s the worst of it over and its all calm waters from here on“. I beg to differ. I’m hoping that the reason there has been little interest recently is that individuals are carefully planning their future on this one and seeking some sort of Legal Advice.
It would be a shame if DAAVN was again allowed to sell us down the river with everyone sitting back and accepting yet another change to the regulations which where in force when most of the worst affected individuals qualified from Middle Wallop.
I have been informed by a reliable source that Comd JHC himself has recently visited one of our Regiments to talk about FSI following a recent accident, and this was raised as the first discussion point in what was perceived as an open forum. He left having discussed nothing about FSI but did say the following comments on this matter:
“This is in to stay and is very unlikely it will be changed or rectified, there has been no changes made to the current regulations as this has always been the regulations on flying pay which has been over looked for such a long time”
“The Army Air Corps is currently over strength with pilots so a few pilots leaving will not effect the manning a great deal, it will take a lot more than normal to leave before any sort of FRI would be considered by the AFPRB, and it is unlikely that the amount of pilots who will leave would be any where near the amount required”
“DAAVN will be publishing an article in the next DAAVN Bulletin to explain in more clearer terms the new regulations and why it has now come into force”
I have no reason to believe that the quotes above were not said but I’m sure if this is not a true and accurate account then someone in the higher CoC will be more than happy to correct me and give us all an accurate account of what exactly was said on this matter.
Hearing the above, I now accept that this is not going to be corrected as we all are hoping, and I’m sure if it is the case where the Army Air Corps is so over manned with pilots then they will not be too affected by me Terminating my service and taking the leap into the civilian market where life will be a lot more pleasant and secure for both myself and my family.
I now intend to inform my CoC immediately on return from Easter Leave of my intentions.
It has been a pleasure serving and flying in the Army Air Corps, but I will now happily take my experience to someone who will not only benefit from it, but also respect it.
Ricon is right. Don't forget that, rather than PVR, you can write a letter stating your intention to leave at a particular point, e.g. end of timebar. They can't actually do anything until you submit formal PVR paperwork, but the point will be noted.
Does anyone know how to post a survey here, or link it to here, to see how many people are intending to leave at the end of a timebar rather than stay in? I don't know how to but it would be interesting to see and compare to known numbers of active pilots in the Corps i.e. not those flight safety liabilities in HQ DAAvn.
I for one will be voting with my feet!
Does anyone know how to post a survey here, or link it to here, to see how many people are intending to leave at the end of a timebar rather than stay in? I don't know how to but it would be interesting to see and compare to known numbers of active pilots in the Corps i.e. not those flight safety liabilities in HQ DAAvn.
I for one will be voting with my feet!
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Some good points Ricon
I am a little perplexed regarding the AAC being over strength as that just doesnt seem to be true. I don't know of any Field Army Squadrons up to strength.
Aside from that though it just cannot be condoned that 1 Arm of HM Forces interprets a document one way and yet the other 2 another.
I am glad you brought this topic back to light as the Easter break has obviously kept people away.
I am a little perplexed regarding the AAC being over strength as that just doesnt seem to be true. I don't know of any Field Army Squadrons up to strength.
Aside from that though it just cannot be condoned that 1 Arm of HM Forces interprets a document one way and yet the other 2 another.
I am glad you brought this topic back to light as the Easter break has obviously kept people away.
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Ricon, Some heart felt points made - it will be a pity that yet another member of the Corps has been left feeling that the only viable option is to pull the 'black and yellow' and depart to civvie street to be appreciated.
With reference to the visit of Comd JHC to one of the Regiments, I would be perturbed if he left with an impression that manning and flying pay/FRI issues were not causing concern at the 'coal face'. I have been reliably informed that post the recent accident a 'no holds barred' open forum was held at which manning/leave (ability to take or not)/financial issues were just some of those raised as contributory points to generally feeling of malaise.
I live in hope that things will improve.
pax
With reference to the visit of Comd JHC to one of the Regiments, I would be perturbed if he left with an impression that manning and flying pay/FRI issues were not causing concern at the 'coal face'. I have been reliably informed that post the recent accident a 'no holds barred' open forum was held at which manning/leave (ability to take or not)/financial issues were just some of those raised as contributory points to generally feeling of malaise.
I live in hope that things will improve.
pax
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I rarely come on this site but this subject forces me too, yes I am on the hit list and was due to move to enhanced this year but not anymore. The upper echelons of the Corps should be ashamed of themselves, as always we get screwed time and time again; never have I witnessed such a lack of leadership in my 20+ year career. I have for the majority of my time in the Army enjoyed myself and given 100+% at all times, in return I expect a fair deal but this decision is absolutely appalling. These kind of decisions enforce outside opinion that we play at it (aviation) and make us the laughing stock amongst the other Services, it's only the professionalism of the individuals at the coal face that change this perception of the Corps.
I will be leaving at the first opportunity (IPP)
and taking my 4000+hrs and Q qual experience elsewhere. Never have I witnessed and never do I want to witness the level of appalling management (loosest possible term) that I have experienced in recent years.
The Corps should be ashamed and in their 50th year, appalling management and incompetence, alongside the belief that the guys on the ground will just accept this decision, unbelievable. Hopefully the merging of DAAvn into JHC will finally give us some form of leadership and remove it as a hiding place for those individuals who clearly have no real ability and having been sacked from previous post are able to operate and come up with ludicrous decisions and policy time after time; time for a clear out I reckon.
Well rant over and bring on the airlines!
I will be leaving at the first opportunity (IPP)
and taking my 4000+hrs and Q qual experience elsewhere. Never have I witnessed and never do I want to witness the level of appalling management (loosest possible term) that I have experienced in recent years. The Corps should be ashamed and in their 50th year, appalling management and incompetence, alongside the belief that the guys on the ground will just accept this decision, unbelievable. Hopefully the merging of DAAvn into JHC will finally give us some form of leadership and remove it as a hiding place for those individuals who clearly have no real ability and having been sacked from previous post are able to operate and come up with ludicrous decisions and policy time after time; time for a clear out I reckon.
Well rant over and bring on the airlines!
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Too many Army pilots.
I've had a few telephone calls to friends in all of the Army Air Corps regiments, and the general feeling is none of them are up to strength. So, if we are being told we are up to full manning, what manning levels are we aiming for, are the HQ’s accepting 75% as full?
Mutley, the other services don't have to interpret the document at all, as they only have one rate of flying pay for pilots and navs. So can anybody tell me why a newly qualified Army pilot gets less flying pay than both newly qualified RAF pilot and newly qualified RAF Nav?
My Army flying has just had one more nail in the coffin lid!
Mutley, the other services don't have to interpret the document at all, as they only have one rate of flying pay for pilots and navs. So can anybody tell me why a newly qualified Army pilot gets less flying pay than both newly qualified RAF pilot and newly qualified RAF Nav?
My Army flying has just had one more nail in the coffin lid!