AAC Flying Pay change
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Guys,
Come on, do you really think that HQ DAAvn give a flying **ck what you think. Your opinions count for squat on their horizon. Clearly there are a
lots of concerns and squabbles regarding pay, however in the current climate of jobtastic in civi street, why oh why,do you remain. I'm sure some of you are on time-bars but the majority are not, so just leave.
If your waiting for a reversal forget it, someone would have to say sorry or god forbid admit they **cked up large, and we all know that will never happen.
You are worth more than the treatment your getting, but you are still putting up with it!
I have raised several issues regarding the performance of various HQ eliments within the AAC and have taken flak for my comments, but sorry to say it again, told you so.
We have gone through similar events like this before and the majority held tight in the hope that things would improve for the better, they seldom did it has to be said. This time things are beyond recovery; No FRI, Delayed flying pay and you can look forward to increased operational tours, over commitment and no thanks.
So.............No Thanks....has to be the way ahead!
PP
Come on, do you really think that HQ DAAvn give a flying **ck what you think. Your opinions count for squat on their horizon. Clearly there are a
lots of concerns and squabbles regarding pay, however in the current climate of jobtastic in civi street, why oh why,do you remain. I'm sure some of you are on time-bars but the majority are not, so just leave.
If your waiting for a reversal forget it, someone would have to say sorry or god forbid admit they **cked up large, and we all know that will never happen.
You are worth more than the treatment your getting, but you are still putting up with it!
I have raised several issues regarding the performance of various HQ eliments within the AAC and have taken flak for my comments, but sorry to say it again, told you so.
We have gone through similar events like this before and the majority held tight in the hope that things would improve for the better, they seldom did it has to be said. This time things are beyond recovery; No FRI, Delayed flying pay and you can look forward to increased operational tours, over commitment and no thanks.
So.............No Thanks....has to be the way ahead!
PP
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PP,
Usually your caustic posts get my back up, but on this one I am with you. However, what has allowed the powers that be take 'ownership of this risk' (i.e. gamble) is that despite all of what has been said above and despite the significant differences in pay and conditions between Army and the RN/RAF is that there has not been a rush of people voting with their feet.
Of course there are those that are leaving at or around pension point - the 'cushion of a pension' making the decision easier. The Corps had factored those in and actually would like them to go. It always had invested a lot of responsibility in youth, where as the other 2 services have some well seasoned operators/high hour operators in command.
It is the 'bums on seats' and middle managers that would really hurt if they voted on mass. But despite the disparity and high op tempo forecast in the years ahead, the personnel figures look as though they are staying put.
Unless you know differently, I do not see or hear from the crew rooms of any stampede to civvie street (despite a very bouyant market, looking to explode in the airline market). This either signifies that either life is not as bad as portrayed, or the AAC retention measures do work (in comparison to the other 2 Services) or that it is infact true and the AAC pilot (given background, education, character etc) is a more stable Human Resource and not as mobile in the job market as his/her RN/RAF colleagues.
Whatever the reason, I do not think that people are voting with their feet, just whingeing and whining in crewrooms, with a real kick in the nuts for morale, just at the point when the Corps could proudly hold its head up high in the Joint Helicopter arena.
Usually your caustic posts get my back up, but on this one I am with you. However, what has allowed the powers that be take 'ownership of this risk' (i.e. gamble) is that despite all of what has been said above and despite the significant differences in pay and conditions between Army and the RN/RAF is that there has not been a rush of people voting with their feet.
Of course there are those that are leaving at or around pension point - the 'cushion of a pension' making the decision easier. The Corps had factored those in and actually would like them to go. It always had invested a lot of responsibility in youth, where as the other 2 services have some well seasoned operators/high hour operators in command.
It is the 'bums on seats' and middle managers that would really hurt if they voted on mass. But despite the disparity and high op tempo forecast in the years ahead, the personnel figures look as though they are staying put.
Unless you know differently, I do not see or hear from the crew rooms of any stampede to civvie street (despite a very bouyant market, looking to explode in the airline market). This either signifies that either life is not as bad as portrayed, or the AAC retention measures do work (in comparison to the other 2 Services) or that it is infact true and the AAC pilot (given background, education, character etc) is a more stable Human Resource and not as mobile in the job market as his/her RN/RAF colleagues.
Whatever the reason, I do not think that people are voting with their feet, just whingeing and whining in crewrooms, with a real kick in the nuts for morale, just at the point when the Corps could proudly hold its head up high in the Joint Helicopter arena.
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Front Seater, some very worthy points to ponder but I must point out that is isnt always as easy to vote with ones feet spontaneously. There are other considerations such as family, schooling, homes etc etc to consider and so to expect a stampede just isn't realistic.
What is realistic however is when considering the future and weighing up the reasons to stay or go, the arguments for are rapidly turning to against.
Furthermore, this whole vote with your feet argument just isn't condusive to human rights as I should have an option to very easily approach my employer regarding changes to my contract etc. What is needed is for a cessation of out of court settlements and a drive to push the MOD to pay for its errors to all whom have suffered as well as those that will follow.
I shouldnt have to give up my job just to show my discontent as all those that have done will agree it simply proves worthless.
What is realistic however is when considering the future and weighing up the reasons to stay or go, the arguments for are rapidly turning to against.
Furthermore, this whole vote with your feet argument just isn't condusive to human rights as I should have an option to very easily approach my employer regarding changes to my contract etc. What is needed is for a cessation of out of court settlements and a drive to push the MOD to pay for its errors to all whom have suffered as well as those that will follow.
I shouldnt have to give up my job just to show my discontent as all those that have done will agree it simply proves worthless.
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There is also the small matter of having a licence either via bridging or the long route. I think what you will find now is a lot of people who were debating licencing are now actively seeking it. Lets face it, no-one is going to want to leave and be unemployed just to make a point. I think the effect of these changes will be felt in a couple of years time.
What might be more use at the moment is the prospect of a class action, I'd have no idea where to start with this but surely the disparity between services can't be right, especially since flying training became joint.
What might be more use at the moment is the prospect of a class action, I'd have no idea where to start with this but surely the disparity between services can't be right, especially since flying training became joint.
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I agree you shouldn't have to give up a job that you enjoy just to show your discontent as unless there are big numbers involved no-one will bat an eye lid at 1 or 2 people leaving before their 22 year point. This won't bring the system down! Lets be realistice about leaving, its not to show or to prove to anyone what you think as this is not only worthless but also pointless.
You've got to be doing it for your own reasons forget the good of the service, whether you are leaving because of financial or family reasons get the most out of the services and bother yourself to get a licence at the earliest opportuniuty so you can leave if someone decides to change your terms and conditions without dicussing it
You've got to be doing it for your own reasons forget the good of the service, whether you are leaving because of financial or family reasons get the most out of the services and bother yourself to get a licence at the earliest opportuniuty so you can leave if someone decides to change your terms and conditions without dicussing it
have licence. will leave at initial pension point (not long to go now). If I hadn't got a licence, same result.
If I'm going to get treated like sh eyte I'll go elsewhere and get paid more for the privilege thanks.
If I'm going to get treated like sh eyte I'll go elsewhere and get paid more for the privilege thanks.
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The thunder of hooves ...
There are a number of factors that the Army as a whole, and the AAC in particular, is not paying sufficient attention to on the issue of retention.
Firstly, for DE officers, the IRC was only invented in the late 90's. Before that, there were two types of officer - short service guys and lifers. However, the present generation of Capts/Majs have already twice been in a position where they have had to consider their prospects outside the military (once on conversion of SSC to IRC, and again on conversion of IRC to Reg C). The decision to stay has not always been easy, and many of my colleagues routinely express serious doubts about whether or not it was the right thing to do. These are the guys and girls who will shortly be approaching their IPPs, starting in 2008. They will have spent a great proportion of their commissioned service regarding their 16 yr points as the ultimate target, not the half-way point of a full career. The 'old guard' of SO1s and above have, largely, held Regular Commissions since they joined, or in some cases from even before that, so they cannot empathise or comprehend quite how many, or how serious we all are about our intentions to leave at the earliest opportunity. I think the Corps needs to radically re-assess just how many carrots it is going to need to keep anyone in beyond the 07, 08 and 09 Sqn Comd boards, and for each and every No 5 board thereafter. Standby for a lot of gapped SO2 and SO1 posts in the future ....
Secondly, for all ranks, the reality is that many people are marrying later, having children later, and many have partners who themselves have significant careers independent of the Army. The 'hooks' of boarding school allowance and subsidised quartering are simply not catching as many people as they did a decade ago, and many soldiers and officers will be reaching their pension points, before having become trapped by a reliance on these benefits. This trend is getting worse (from a retention perspective) and the only solution is to have a rewards package that gives cash, rather than allowances. (FRIs were an example of this trend). Again, the present generation of SO1s and above are already firmly trapped and once again, they just don't have the capacity to fully appreciate that for many of us, continued service is really only marginally more attractive than other options. The change in policy for flying pay progression (and it was a change for the worse, not just a clarification) is just another straw, but one that will break many camels' backs.
Finally, I sometimes think that the old guard (and maybe even some posters on this forum) underestimate our IQs. We all know that under the new JSP 754 regs, flying pay is immediately cut once we PVR, and so to have expected a knee-jerk response of a swathe of resignations is naive. We will go, eventually - make no mistake - but it will be on our terms, when it suits us. The real measure is not whether 2 or 3 people go this year, but whether 20 or 30 will have gone by 2008 and 2009. And the real tragedy is that these 20 or 30 won't be the natural wastage, whose loss the system is designed to cope with, or the garbage that we are glad to see the back of - it will be the best and the brightest ... the ones the Corps really needs to retain if it wants to make progress and develop.
For any CO, their influence is only temporal, but their reputation is eternal. Whether they are derided or celebrated is in our hands, and we must all make them realise that this is the issue on which they will be judged.
In the meantime - play the long game:
Write to HQ DAAvn to express your discontent.
Write to your MP.
Write to Professor David Greenaway (Chairman of the AFPRB), and every other member of the team: Robert Burgin, Alison Gallico, Dr Peter Knight CBE, Professor Derek Leslie, Neil Sherlock, Air Vice Marshal (Retired) Ian Stewart CB, Dr Anne Wright CBE and Lord Young of Norwood Green (and while you are at it, ask them to include an AAC unit on their visits for 2008).
Apply for a transfer to the RAF or the RN.
And above all, make your chain of command aware that failing to resolve this issue will cost the Corps dearly down the line. The four horsemen may not be riding across the lawn at Middle Wallop just yet, but I can hear the thunder of hooves not far off ...
Firstly, for DE officers, the IRC was only invented in the late 90's. Before that, there were two types of officer - short service guys and lifers. However, the present generation of Capts/Majs have already twice been in a position where they have had to consider their prospects outside the military (once on conversion of SSC to IRC, and again on conversion of IRC to Reg C). The decision to stay has not always been easy, and many of my colleagues routinely express serious doubts about whether or not it was the right thing to do. These are the guys and girls who will shortly be approaching their IPPs, starting in 2008. They will have spent a great proportion of their commissioned service regarding their 16 yr points as the ultimate target, not the half-way point of a full career. The 'old guard' of SO1s and above have, largely, held Regular Commissions since they joined, or in some cases from even before that, so they cannot empathise or comprehend quite how many, or how serious we all are about our intentions to leave at the earliest opportunity. I think the Corps needs to radically re-assess just how many carrots it is going to need to keep anyone in beyond the 07, 08 and 09 Sqn Comd boards, and for each and every No 5 board thereafter. Standby for a lot of gapped SO2 and SO1 posts in the future ....
Secondly, for all ranks, the reality is that many people are marrying later, having children later, and many have partners who themselves have significant careers independent of the Army. The 'hooks' of boarding school allowance and subsidised quartering are simply not catching as many people as they did a decade ago, and many soldiers and officers will be reaching their pension points, before having become trapped by a reliance on these benefits. This trend is getting worse (from a retention perspective) and the only solution is to have a rewards package that gives cash, rather than allowances. (FRIs were an example of this trend). Again, the present generation of SO1s and above are already firmly trapped and once again, they just don't have the capacity to fully appreciate that for many of us, continued service is really only marginally more attractive than other options. The change in policy for flying pay progression (and it was a change for the worse, not just a clarification) is just another straw, but one that will break many camels' backs.
Finally, I sometimes think that the old guard (and maybe even some posters on this forum) underestimate our IQs. We all know that under the new JSP 754 regs, flying pay is immediately cut once we PVR, and so to have expected a knee-jerk response of a swathe of resignations is naive. We will go, eventually - make no mistake - but it will be on our terms, when it suits us. The real measure is not whether 2 or 3 people go this year, but whether 20 or 30 will have gone by 2008 and 2009. And the real tragedy is that these 20 or 30 won't be the natural wastage, whose loss the system is designed to cope with, or the garbage that we are glad to see the back of - it will be the best and the brightest ... the ones the Corps really needs to retain if it wants to make progress and develop.
For any CO, their influence is only temporal, but their reputation is eternal. Whether they are derided or celebrated is in our hands, and we must all make them realise that this is the issue on which they will be judged.
In the meantime - play the long game:
Write to HQ DAAvn to express your discontent.
Write to your MP.
Write to Professor David Greenaway (Chairman of the AFPRB), and every other member of the team: Robert Burgin, Alison Gallico, Dr Peter Knight CBE, Professor Derek Leslie, Neil Sherlock, Air Vice Marshal (Retired) Ian Stewart CB, Dr Anne Wright CBE and Lord Young of Norwood Green (and while you are at it, ask them to include an AAC unit on their visits for 2008).
Apply for a transfer to the RAF or the RN.
And above all, make your chain of command aware that failing to resolve this issue will cost the Corps dearly down the line. The four horsemen may not be riding across the lawn at Middle Wallop just yet, but I can hear the thunder of hooves not far off ...
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I doubt the chain of command will care if they get 1 or 2 letters from a few DE officers as I suppose they will write this off as some misled officers being idealists or that they were misguided by their SNCOs, equally 1 or 2 gapped SO1 or SO2 posts won't effect the manning of a front line squadron.
Whilst I agree with the sentiment of this rallying cry, 20 or 30 extra aircrew leaving a year can be easily absorbed by the Middle Wallop production line, long term your naive if you think anything will change because of a few disgruntled voices!
Do you think the chain of command cares about the noise of hooves?
For any CO, their influence is only temporal, but their reputation is eternal. Whether they are derided or celebrated is in our hands, and we must all make them realise that this is the issue on which they will be judged.
Do you think the chain of command cares about the noise of hooves?
Last edited by MINself; 28th Mar 2007 at 23:24. Reason: spell chuck
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You are of course right that a few disgruntled voices will not make any difference. That is why we must act collectively to force this to the top of HQ DAAvn's agenda. Have you seen the list? There are nearly 300 names on it. The greatest hypothetical financial loss is over £44k.
And whilst the sausage factory can, quite possibly, churn out an extra 20-30 people over the next few years, these would be 2nd Lts, with 250hrs. With the LOS-based terms of service for officer careers, it will take another 12 years to replace the Majs and senior Capts that will be voting with their feet over the next 36months. This will have second-order consequences and compound effects as those who remain will have fewer and fewer opportunities for service at E2, increased tour lenths and reduced tour intervals, and of course less money than they had been expected for doing it.
What really makes me laugh is that the Corps fall-back option for the last decade has been to commission every Tom, Dick and Harry (these days they prefer to be known as Thomas, Richard and Henry, obviously) to fill the shortfall created by the Corps' patent inability to retain those people it had originally selected and trained for the job. However, the effect of D/AAvn/31/003 is to disproportionately disadvantage precisely those NCO aircrew who we have historically relied on to take up these LE commissions - and whilst I don't claim any expertise in understanding the British NCO psyche, I'm pretty sure that the bunch I've met who serve in AAC Regts are not tolerant of idiots, do not take kindly to being shafted, have very long memories, and will not easily forgive this act of snake-bellied treachery by the Directorate.
Like I said, it will be more than just a few gapped posts at SO2 and SO1 level over the next few years ...
And whilst the sausage factory can, quite possibly, churn out an extra 20-30 people over the next few years, these would be 2nd Lts, with 250hrs. With the LOS-based terms of service for officer careers, it will take another 12 years to replace the Majs and senior Capts that will be voting with their feet over the next 36months. This will have second-order consequences and compound effects as those who remain will have fewer and fewer opportunities for service at E2, increased tour lenths and reduced tour intervals, and of course less money than they had been expected for doing it.
What really makes me laugh is that the Corps fall-back option for the last decade has been to commission every Tom, Dick and Harry (these days they prefer to be known as Thomas, Richard and Henry, obviously) to fill the shortfall created by the Corps' patent inability to retain those people it had originally selected and trained for the job. However, the effect of D/AAvn/31/003 is to disproportionately disadvantage precisely those NCO aircrew who we have historically relied on to take up these LE commissions - and whilst I don't claim any expertise in understanding the British NCO psyche, I'm pretty sure that the bunch I've met who serve in AAC Regts are not tolerant of idiots, do not take kindly to being shafted, have very long memories, and will not easily forgive this act of snake-bellied treachery by the Directorate.
Like I said, it will be more than just a few gapped posts at SO2 and SO1 level over the next few years ...
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Chaps,
I would have thought that it was obvious by now; it is the first stage of absorbing the AAC into the RAF, and the disbandment of a discredited HQ DAAvn and introducing JHC as the Corps focus. We all know that NCO aircrew are an anathema to the RAF, so first, lets get rid of them by having them leave of their own accord under the guise of a flying pay anomaly. And, of course, once the AAC goes, then the next target will be the Fleet Air Arm.Simple really.
I would have thought that it was obvious by now; it is the first stage of absorbing the AAC into the RAF, and the disbandment of a discredited HQ DAAvn and introducing JHC as the Corps focus. We all know that NCO aircrew are an anathema to the RAF, so first, lets get rid of them by having them leave of their own accord under the guise of a flying pay anomaly. And, of course, once the AAC goes, then the next target will be the Fleet Air Arm.Simple really.
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Something in the title may explain; the Joint Helicopter Command commands operational activity and the Directorate directs (as in deals with personnel, airworthiness, flight safety structures and organisational matters, training policy and a whole host of other things that the JHC would not even wish to go near). Apart from fighting PS10 about flying pay, it does a remarkably good job given the circumstances. (Oh and I wasn't paid to say that; I know how hard some of those people work for the Corps).
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It does a remarkably good job given the circumstances
would that be the great and the good SO1/2s manning their desks and too preoccupied with their pet projects. At the same time keeping favour with DAAvn and hoping that the end of their own short postings hasten along before anything rocks their own career apple cart, but not so willing to put their heads above the parapet when it comes to standing up for the very people that HQ DAAvn should be trying to retain in the AAC and not alienate because of some short sighted penny pinching. More worrying still is that their probably right and that DAAvn won't see a mass exodus of their experienced aircrew as these officers and soldiers all have their own careers with families to support to consider. In time this detrayal will be forgotten about and the new pay scheme will be all thats known, unless your one of those fortunate enough to be in a position to be able to leave now because of this last straw.
Unless you hope for this
it is the first stage of absorbing the AAC into the RAF
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I'll be off then....
GreenieLynxPilot has hit the nail quite squarely on the head. This issue will bite the Corps squarely on the ass in a few years time. The tractor bean pull of the 16 year pension has got me firmly within its grasp and I would be foolish to sacrifice the pension for the sake of demonstrating my anger. However as a hitherto loyal member of the AAC I am disgusted at the way in which this change has been brought in. This is a disgraceful way to treat the hard working, loyal pilots of the AAC.
And so whilst I will not be leaving in the immediate future, D/AAvn/31/003 has killed off any lingering chance that I might transfer from an IRC to a RegC. I am quite sure that I will not be the only one.
And so whilst I will not be leaving in the immediate future, D/AAvn/31/003 has killed off any lingering chance that I might transfer from an IRC to a RegC. I am quite sure that I will not be the only one.
me too chicken leg. But to add to what greenielynxpilot said - he makes a very good point about such things as attitude changes and boarding school allowance - I wouldn't dream of sending my children to boarding school no matter how much money they gave me - so that is completely not a draw for me.
I have got a regular commission - but the writing's on the wall for the corps. I have to say that this pay change is a wonderful 50th anniversary present for lions led by a bunch of chiselers.
I have got a regular commission - but the writing's on the wall for the corps. I have to say that this pay change is a wonderful 50th anniversary present for lions led by a bunch of chiselers.
