AAC Flying Pay change
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A Sorry State Of Affairs Indeed
As a former Corps member I am dismayed and indeed disgusted with this situation. Directorate, you should hang your heads in shame; even if you are merely the messenger.............you are crap messengers.
I will not drone on about how poor this is as many of you have already put this across extremely well..........Greenie in particular I think.
I left due to a perceived lack of leadership present and fortunately this coincided with my 22 point, this beats anything I saw, it truly is a disgrace. Were this a civilian company, heads would roll I can assure you.
Companies in the real world simply do not tollerate incompetence, it costs them money which is a big no no. How fortunate that the people behind this lack of communication and leadership are cast iron, tefloned within a company so big that this is a mere ripple.
Col Comdt, kick some butts.
DAAvn, kick some butts.
CO's, Make some noise, your men are getting royally shafted.
Guys, Make your views known through the chain of command, your superiors have an absolute obligation to forward reasoned argument and feedback.
Gents, the civi market is buoyant, if you do not have a lic, get one, even if you are not yet contemplating leaving, (anyone??
), it is a nice warm feeling to have ejection handles dangling and waiting.
Rant over, I am truly saddened to see good people being treated this way.
I will not drone on about how poor this is as many of you have already put this across extremely well..........Greenie in particular I think.
I left due to a perceived lack of leadership present and fortunately this coincided with my 22 point, this beats anything I saw, it truly is a disgrace. Were this a civilian company, heads would roll I can assure you.
Companies in the real world simply do not tollerate incompetence, it costs them money which is a big no no. How fortunate that the people behind this lack of communication and leadership are cast iron, tefloned within a company so big that this is a mere ripple.
Col Comdt, kick some butts.
DAAvn, kick some butts.
CO's, Make some noise, your men are getting royally shafted.
Guys, Make your views known through the chain of command, your superiors have an absolute obligation to forward reasoned argument and feedback.
Gents, the civi market is buoyant, if you do not have a lic, get one, even if you are not yet contemplating leaving, (anyone??
), it is a nice warm feeling to have ejection handles dangling and waiting.Rant over, I am truly saddened to see good people being treated this way.
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Stunned at the complete apathy ...
Everyone I speak to says the same thing ... "this is ****e, but what can you do?"
Well, for starters, make your chain of command work for you:-
Next time you have a spare moment in the crewroom with your flight commanders; or
Next time you have a mid-year appraisal (or ACR/OJAR/SJAR/whatever) interview with your OC or even better, your CO; or
Next time DAAvn (or anyone) visits your Regiment and you are lined up for one of those singularly naff 'meet the troops' events that only COs seem to think are a good idea; or
If you work at DAAvn, pop round to the SO1 G1's office; or
If you are an Adjutant, the next time you ring MCM Div on some other matter; or
If you are a WO1 in a Regiment, corner the RAOWO at Tea and Toast;
and ask them any one of the following questions - (and demand an answer):
Well, for starters, make your chain of command work for you:-
Next time you have a spare moment in the crewroom with your flight commanders; or
Next time you have a mid-year appraisal (or ACR/OJAR/SJAR/whatever) interview with your OC or even better, your CO; or
Next time DAAvn (or anyone) visits your Regiment and you are lined up for one of those singularly naff 'meet the troops' events that only COs seem to think are a good idea; or
If you work at DAAvn, pop round to the SO1 G1's office; or
If you are an Adjutant, the next time you ring MCM Div on some other matter; or
If you are a WO1 in a Regiment, corner the RAOWO at Tea and Toast;
and ask them any one of the following questions - (and demand an answer):
• How much consultation was there (with AAC representation present) over this ‘clarification’? What was the rank of those who represented the AAC at meetings where this was discussed? How many meetings were held, over what time-frame? What other parties were represented? Are the minutes from the meetings where this policy clarification was discussed publicly available? If not, why not?
• Has the wording of the Army Pay Warrant 1964 really been that badly mis-applied by a decade's worth of RAOs and RAOWOs across the Corps, or had it already been amended? How many amendments have there been in the period 1995-2007, and how does one get copies of earlier amendments for the periods to which they applied?
• Exactly how ‘inconsistent’ was the interpretation prevalent between 1995 and 2007? How many officers and soldiers were in receipt of enhanced rates of flying pay on 1 Mar 07, and what proportion of these had had their increment date coincident with the 4-yr anniversary of their initial receipt of flying pay rather than a 4-yr anniversary of qualification as aircraft commander? What is the proportion of all increments awarded between 1995 and 2007, including all those who have since left the service, that were based on a 4-yr anniversary of initial flying pay?
• What precisely is the distinction between the following terms, and where else are they defined other than in JSP318/JSP550?• Were the definitions of these terms intended to define entitlement to specialist pay?
• What precisely is the distinction between ‘P1’ and ‘Aircraft Commander’? Are the terms interchangeable, in all three of the examples above? How did these definitions evolve or change during the period 1995 to 2007?
• How many pilots had their aircraft commander authorisation granted at some point after satisfying the requirements for qualification as an aircraft commander as per JSP318/JSP550 (most commonly due to there being insufficient vacant Aircraft Commander LSNs within that person’s unit at that time, or possibly also because transfer and/or promotion to Sgt was delayed, or as a consequence of some other disciplinary or administrative censure). What is the average period of time for this delay for all those affected? Was it the intention of the Commanding Officers in each case to impose a deferred cumulative financial penalty by imposing this delay? Could this constitute career mismanagement, or an unauthorised, retrospective or illegal punishment?
• Whilst rare, it is technically possible for an Aircraft Commander to lose his/her Aircraft Command status, either on disciplinary, administrative or medical grounds. To what rate of pay would a pilot who presently in receipt of middle, higher, or enhanced rates of P1 pay be entitled if this were to occur? By what formula would his/her entitlement to the various rates of P1 pay be calculated on re-instatement of the P1 qualification / employment / authorisation?
• What is the rationale behind the naming convention for P1 and P2 rates of flying pay? Why is it that a serviceperson who is qualified, authorised and subsequently employed as an aircraft commander after progressing onto the P2 middle rate must remain there until four years at that rate has elapsed? Should not the name of a rate of pay reflect the common English meaning of the words used, and therefore does the logic not suggest that initial P1 pay should be greater than the highest available rate of P2 pay?
• Exactly what is the policy basis for distinguishing Army and RM officers from their RAF and RN counterparts in the matter of P2 pay until qualified as aircraft commanders?
• What is the total amount of P1 pay erroneously paid, for all existing and previous aircraft commanders since 1995? What is the forecast total saving of this ‘clarification’ over the next four years? How many Apache pilots would need to resign on completion of their time bar to completely negate this saving?
In fact, print this out and keep it in your pocket just in case. Constant, persistent, firm pressure is what will force the hierarchy to sort this out. Don't give up on this - if they think we'll tolerate this, what will they take next?
• Has the wording of the Army Pay Warrant 1964 really been that badly mis-applied by a decade's worth of RAOs and RAOWOs across the Corps, or had it already been amended? How many amendments have there been in the period 1995-2007, and how does one get copies of earlier amendments for the periods to which they applied?
• Exactly how ‘inconsistent’ was the interpretation prevalent between 1995 and 2007? How many officers and soldiers were in receipt of enhanced rates of flying pay on 1 Mar 07, and what proportion of these had had their increment date coincident with the 4-yr anniversary of their initial receipt of flying pay rather than a 4-yr anniversary of qualification as aircraft commander? What is the proportion of all increments awarded between 1995 and 2007, including all those who have since left the service, that were based on a 4-yr anniversary of initial flying pay?
• What precisely is the distinction between the following terms, and where else are they defined other than in JSP318/JSP550?
o Authorised as aircraft commander?
o Employed as aircraft commander?
o Qualified as aircraft commander?
o Employed as aircraft commander?
o Qualified as aircraft commander?
• What precisely is the distinction between ‘P1’ and ‘Aircraft Commander’? Are the terms interchangeable, in all three of the examples above? How did these definitions evolve or change during the period 1995 to 2007?
• How many pilots had their aircraft commander authorisation granted at some point after satisfying the requirements for qualification as an aircraft commander as per JSP318/JSP550 (most commonly due to there being insufficient vacant Aircraft Commander LSNs within that person’s unit at that time, or possibly also because transfer and/or promotion to Sgt was delayed, or as a consequence of some other disciplinary or administrative censure). What is the average period of time for this delay for all those affected? Was it the intention of the Commanding Officers in each case to impose a deferred cumulative financial penalty by imposing this delay? Could this constitute career mismanagement, or an unauthorised, retrospective or illegal punishment?
• Whilst rare, it is technically possible for an Aircraft Commander to lose his/her Aircraft Command status, either on disciplinary, administrative or medical grounds. To what rate of pay would a pilot who presently in receipt of middle, higher, or enhanced rates of P1 pay be entitled if this were to occur? By what formula would his/her entitlement to the various rates of P1 pay be calculated on re-instatement of the P1 qualification / employment / authorisation?
• What is the rationale behind the naming convention for P1 and P2 rates of flying pay? Why is it that a serviceperson who is qualified, authorised and subsequently employed as an aircraft commander after progressing onto the P2 middle rate must remain there until four years at that rate has elapsed? Should not the name of a rate of pay reflect the common English meaning of the words used, and therefore does the logic not suggest that initial P1 pay should be greater than the highest available rate of P2 pay?
• Exactly what is the policy basis for distinguishing Army and RM officers from their RAF and RN counterparts in the matter of P2 pay until qualified as aircraft commanders?
• What is the total amount of P1 pay erroneously paid, for all existing and previous aircraft commanders since 1995? What is the forecast total saving of this ‘clarification’ over the next four years? How many Apache pilots would need to resign on completion of their time bar to completely negate this saving?
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Constant, persistent, firm pressure is what will force the hierarchy to sort this out. Don't give up on this - if they think we'll tolerate this, what will they take next?
An interesting post. The point that I fear you are missing is that many of the appointments you mentioned at the start of this post do not support your view that there is a case to answer. Most, if not all will say that you should think yourself lucky that the money is not being reclaimed and that this solution is the best that could be hope for.
Naturally, this is scandulous, but it will not change. Whether or not it appears so in the Sqn's, the Corps is overmanned with pilots and there is no historical evidence that Army pilots vote with their feet. Ever!
As has been said before on this thread. I'm afraid to say that I reckon you're stuck with this
The RAF are crying out for pilots of all persuasions; why not join the reported twenty odd pongo's that are already someway along the transfer route. You only have to read other threads on here to see that actually, the Light Blue life is no better, but at least you might get paid your worth. Interestingly, due to the over manning, the Army will do very little to stop you gong either!
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Greenie..........dont listen to that boxxxxks
Keep at it, this is a disgrace that needs to be kept in the open.
The directorate are no doubt gleeful that this has slipped onto the PPRUNE backwaters.
Keep at it, this is a disgrace that needs to be kept in the open.
The directorate are no doubt gleeful that this has slipped onto the PPRUNE backwaters.
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I'll answer that one - All this:
Quote:
Constant, persistent, firm pressure is what will force the hierarchy to sort this out. Don't give up on this - if they think we'll tolerate this, what will they take next?
Greenielynxpilot:
An interesting post. The point that I fear you are missing is that many of the appointments you mentioned at the start of this post do not support your view that there is a case to answer. Most, if not all will say that you should think yourself lucky that the money is not being reclaimed and that this solution is the best that could be hope for.
Naturally, this is scandulous, but it will not change. Whether or not it appears so in the Sqn's, the Corps is overmanned with pilots and there is no historical evidence that Army pilots vote with their feet. Ever!
As has been said before on this thread. I'm afraid to say that I reckon you're stuck with this
The RAF are crying out for pilots of all persuasions; why not join the reported twenty odd pongo's that are already someway along the transfer route. You only have to read other threads on here to see that actually, the Light Blue life is no better, but at least you might get paid your worth. Interestingly, due to the over manning, the Army will do very little to stop you gong either!
DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION - OBVIOUSLY NOT SOMEONE WHO IS ADVERSLY AFFECTED BY IT. STAY AWAY WITH YOUR NEGATIVE COMMENTS.
Quote:
Constant, persistent, firm pressure is what will force the hierarchy to sort this out. Don't give up on this - if they think we'll tolerate this, what will they take next?
Greenielynxpilot:
An interesting post. The point that I fear you are missing is that many of the appointments you mentioned at the start of this post do not support your view that there is a case to answer. Most, if not all will say that you should think yourself lucky that the money is not being reclaimed and that this solution is the best that could be hope for.
Naturally, this is scandulous, but it will not change. Whether or not it appears so in the Sqn's, the Corps is overmanned with pilots and there is no historical evidence that Army pilots vote with their feet. Ever!
As has been said before on this thread. I'm afraid to say that I reckon you're stuck with this
The RAF are crying out for pilots of all persuasions; why not join the reported twenty odd pongo's that are already someway along the transfer route. You only have to read other threads on here to see that actually, the Light Blue life is no better, but at least you might get paid your worth. Interestingly, due to the over manning, the Army will do very little to stop you gong either!
DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION - OBVIOUSLY NOT SOMEONE WHO IS ADVERSLY AFFECTED BY IT. STAY AWAY WITH YOUR NEGATIVE COMMENTS.
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OooooooooooKayyyyyyyyyy! Let's be more precise and remember that I am the messenger only!:
Sad but true. The majority of DAAvn think this is fair (at least outwardly anyway).
Surprising maybe, but also true.
Give me an example of when there has ever been a mass exodus due to poor leadership or management?
There are in excess of 20 Pongo's currently going through the transfer process and MCM are supporting those applications.
You seem to be shooting down my points because you don't like them. I don't like them either, but it doesn't make them boxxxxks. You're right, I'm not adversely affected by the change, but again, that doesn't make my points boxxxxks.
I am genuinely as disgusted by this as you, but emotions won't win the day. Voting with your feet will. But as we said above, there's very little chance that that will happen.
Good luck; sincerely.
many of the appointments you mentioned at the start of this post do not support your view that there is a case to answer. Most, if not all will say that you should think yourself lucky that the money is not being reclaimed and that this solution is the best that could be hope for
Whether or not it appears so in the Sqn's, the Corps is overmanned with pilots
there is no historical evidence that Army pilots vote with their feet. Ever!
The RAF are crying out for pilots of all persuasions; why not join the reported twenty odd pongo's that are already someway along the transfer route. You only have to read other threads on here to see that actually, the Light Blue life is no better, but at least you might get paid your worth. Interestingly, due to the over manning, the Army will do very little to stop you gong either!
You seem to be shooting down my points because you don't like them. I don't like them either, but it doesn't make them boxxxxks. You're right, I'm not adversely affected by the change, but again, that doesn't make my points boxxxxks.
I am genuinely as disgusted by this as you, but emotions won't win the day. Voting with your feet will. But as we said above, there's very little chance that that will happen.
Good luck; sincerely.
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Sorry if you are offended Arthur, not my intention at all.
The "stuck with this" bit is what I diagree with.
I personally have voted with my feet, and it is much greener for me.
Look at 9 Regt about 1 year ago, the list was;
RQHI
DRQHI
ADJT
OPS OFFR
RWO
RAO
Some of it might just be put down to the normal cycle of things.....hmmmmm
Now maybe, just maybe this was a big co-incidence if it were 2 or 3.........but 6 RHQ officers??
Again, sincere apols for any offence caused.
The "stuck with this" bit is what I diagree with.
I personally have voted with my feet, and it is much greener for me.
Look at 9 Regt about 1 year ago, the list was;
RQHI
DRQHI
ADJT
OPS OFFR
RWO
RAO
Some of it might just be put down to the normal cycle of things.....hmmmmm
Now maybe, just maybe this was a big co-incidence if it were 2 or 3.........but 6 RHQ officers??
Again, sincere apols for any offence caused.
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Is everybody aware of the new ruling on PES A.
Those on AFPS 75 - Straight onto PES A at IPP now instead of waiting to complete 5 years continuance.
Those on AFPS 05 - Onto it when you get to 18/40.
Wonder if this is a trade off for the flying pay fiasco.
Apparently all SNCO's who apply will almost definately get it.
Not sure what the comittment time is though, there was no mention of that on the letter i saw.
Also heard through grapevine that flying pay fiasco is being looked into with considerable scrutiny and maybe revert back to what we know but please dont shoot the messenger - as always, chinese whispers but from a creditable source, watch with caution.
Those on AFPS 75 - Straight onto PES A at IPP now instead of waiting to complete 5 years continuance.
Those on AFPS 05 - Onto it when you get to 18/40.
Wonder if this is a trade off for the flying pay fiasco.
Apparently all SNCO's who apply will almost definately get it.
Not sure what the comittment time is though, there was no mention of that on the letter i saw.
Also heard through grapevine that flying pay fiasco is being looked into with considerable scrutiny and maybe revert back to what we know but please dont shoot the messenger - as always, chinese whispers but from a creditable source, watch with caution.
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Had a call from a colleague about this yesterday and all isnt quite as rosey as it appears.
If your on AFPS 05 then PES will suit but whom out of us elected to change as none of us ever thought we'd ever grace the corridors of PESness?
As NCO pilots are only allowed to reach level 22 as the maximum, the rewards if for instance you are a WO1 are almost non apparent.
In order for this to work an option to change to 05 or a raising of the attainable level as an NCO must be in place otherwise its simply a paperwork exercise that will only spoof the foolhardy.
If your on AFPS 05 then PES will suit but whom out of us elected to change as none of us ever thought we'd ever grace the corridors of PESness?
As NCO pilots are only allowed to reach level 22 as the maximum, the rewards if for instance you are a WO1 are almost non apparent.
In order for this to work an option to change to 05 or a raising of the attainable level as an NCO must be in place otherwise its simply a paperwork exercise that will only spoof the foolhardy.
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I sincerely hoipe that this does get sorted out.............but for goodness sake how can such a cluster get rubber stamped and wheeled out before the troops, apparantly without an adult having looked at the implications on staff morale and hence retention.
If DAAvn were well ahead on this and kept all informed at timely points then fair play to them, all you can ask with bad news is the people are tranparent and honest, and timely with info.
Anyway guys, great servicibility and no getting jerked around awaits you out here if you wish ..........
If DAAvn were well ahead on this and kept all informed at timely points then fair play to them, all you can ask with bad news is the people are tranparent and honest, and timely with info.
Anyway guys, great servicibility and no getting jerked around awaits you out here if you wish ..........
PES(A)....Hurrumph. Firstly I wasn't old enough and now I am too old. Coupled with the IRC fiasco last year and subsequently not taking the risk of getting Reg, I have remained AFPS 75. A planned incentive is actually going to make me leave at the earliest opportunity. Perhaps that was the plan! Hey ho.
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What are the facts regarding PES A
I've been involved in the move down south, so I haven't had a chance to really read the letter. I'm an LE over 40 years old and more than 18 years service and signed onto the 05 pension.
When can I get PES?
Many regards.
Tom
When can I get PES?
Many regards.
Tom
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Check your pm's Tom
I think the crunch is going to be that you need at least 5 years return of service from commencement of PES.
I think the crunch is going to be that you need at least 5 years return of service from commencement of PES.
Last edited by mutleyfour; 23rd Jun 2007 at 07:55.
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Tom,
Not quite sure what M4's PM consisted of but by my understanding is that you can go onto PES at your IPP. The "letter" was not that clear as it did not specify (for your case) whether your IPP is now five years hence from being commissioned or your old enlisted IPP or indeed (if applicable) the AFPS 05 IPP......I think it might be wise to speak to Glasgow to get the straight and skinny....Maybe not!!
Not quite sure what M4's PM consisted of but by my understanding is that you can go onto PES at your IPP. The "letter" was not that clear as it did not specify (for your case) whether your IPP is now five years hence from being commissioned or your old enlisted IPP or indeed (if applicable) the AFPS 05 IPP......I think it might be wise to speak to Glasgow to get the straight and skinny....Maybe not!!
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Countdeblades
My point is that passing IPP is not enough to get onto PES. you have to have at least five years of guaranteed service beyond. So if your on 3 years of continuance you will not be eligible. Likewise if you have already passed IPP and are a year or two into a 5 year spell you will not be eligible. It was explained to me that you must be on LSL, Continuance or the like and have 5 years return of service from commencement of PES.
My point to Tom is that each of us have a different case and I dont know if he is on SSC or Reg C but he will have to dot the I's and cross the T's with MCM to determine his case as it isnt as simple as it might seem.
SNCO's need to made aware that they can only achieve level 22 which roughly equates to a WO1 on Enhanced and no further at the moment.
My point is that passing IPP is not enough to get onto PES. you have to have at least five years of guaranteed service beyond. So if your on 3 years of continuance you will not be eligible. Likewise if you have already passed IPP and are a year or two into a 5 year spell you will not be eligible. It was explained to me that you must be on LSL, Continuance or the like and have 5 years return of service from commencement of PES.
My point to Tom is that each of us have a different case and I dont know if he is on SSC or Reg C but he will have to dot the I's and cross the T's with MCM to determine his case as it isnt as simple as it might seem.
SNCO's need to made aware that they can only achieve level 22 which roughly equates to a WO1 on Enhanced and no further at the moment.