AAC Flying Pay change
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MM4
I need to explain a few things that have come to light recently.
It would appear that the AAC made a decision about having more Officer pilots than NCO a few years ago. One only has to look at the names on the Pilots courses for the last 5 to 6 years to see evidence of that. We used to be 60/40 split in favour of NCO's but alas no more.
Along with that is a miscalculation a while ago that indicated overstrength was apparently wrong and we are undermanned even allowing for BRH.
Now here lies the problem: Ever since the birth of the Corps the NCO cadre have been the backbone of flying allowing the Officers to progress along standard Army lines including various spells behind a desk etc. Witht he increase in Officer manning that backbone has shrunk meaning less pilots at front line whilst officers go through the normal hoops. Add to that the fact that most of todays young Captains and Majors just want to fly and so are either leaving or transferring you can see the problem.
Now the fact: AAC MCM are actively encouraging NCO's to stay beyond 22. This has been poorly received as at offer to transfer to AFPS 05 it was made clear no such offers would be in place owing to the supposed overmanning. Hence we have to stay on AFPS 75. Add to that the option to go onto PES but being capped at 22 the package isnt quite as attractive.
You might then ask why am I here? Well I'm the foolish one that likes what I do. So why moan I hear you ask? Because this needs to be rectified and soon in order to keep Army Aviation where it should be..in the Army.
I need to explain a few things that have come to light recently.
It would appear that the AAC made a decision about having more Officer pilots than NCO a few years ago. One only has to look at the names on the Pilots courses for the last 5 to 6 years to see evidence of that. We used to be 60/40 split in favour of NCO's but alas no more.
Along with that is a miscalculation a while ago that indicated overstrength was apparently wrong and we are undermanned even allowing for BRH.
Now here lies the problem: Ever since the birth of the Corps the NCO cadre have been the backbone of flying allowing the Officers to progress along standard Army lines including various spells behind a desk etc. Witht he increase in Officer manning that backbone has shrunk meaning less pilots at front line whilst officers go through the normal hoops. Add to that the fact that most of todays young Captains and Majors just want to fly and so are either leaving or transferring you can see the problem.
Now the fact: AAC MCM are actively encouraging NCO's to stay beyond 22. This has been poorly received as at offer to transfer to AFPS 05 it was made clear no such offers would be in place owing to the supposed overmanning. Hence we have to stay on AFPS 75. Add to that the option to go onto PES but being capped at 22 the package isnt quite as attractive.
You might then ask why am I here? Well I'm the foolish one that likes what I do. So why moan I hear you ask? Because this needs to be rectified and soon in order to keep Army Aviation where it should be..in the Army.
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What happens to the Corps if BRH gets cancelled? Can you see the Corps lasting with only one type (excluding the dribs and drabs of indep flights)?
As far as I'm aware, the BRH 'contract' is only for 3 aircraft at the moment. Until AW can demonstrate that its up to speed, we have no obligation to commit.
Ironic that in the Corps 50th year, its not looking very rosey for the future at all.
As far as I'm aware, the BRH 'contract' is only for 3 aircraft at the moment. Until AW can demonstrate that its up to speed, we have no obligation to commit.
Ironic that in the Corps 50th year, its not looking very rosey for the future at all.
and with the post of DAAvn about to become a one-star directly under the command of JHC, as opposed to where he has sat until now, what does that tell you?
Although I have to say that, for the people in the corps, I think that is a good thing - might modernise some of the attitudes that continue to hold sway in the increasingly anachronistic portakabin city.
Although I have to say that, for the people in the corps, I think that is a good thing - might modernise some of the attitudes that continue to hold sway in the increasingly anachronistic portakabin city.
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MM4
All points understood about natural wastage and the lack of evidence concerning shortages.
One thing I must say is that all the guys I referred to in my post, and myself are NOT leaving at planned points, ie: not at the time the AAC think we are due to leave. Most of us are in fact not due to leave until approx 2015, admittedly the majority will be way past IPP at the time but they are still up on the manning board as "in" for the duration.
From a purely selfish perspective I don't suppose it matters a jot anymore as I've made my decision and I know that I won't be missed. And actually at this point in time there is no incentive planned or available that would make me stay. It's why I've come around to this way of thinking that is the problem.
Treat people fairly, keep them informed, ask opinions and act on them when possible/feasible, never mess with money, leave, families or food.
It isn't that hard.
All points understood about natural wastage and the lack of evidence concerning shortages.
One thing I must say is that all the guys I referred to in my post, and myself are NOT leaving at planned points, ie: not at the time the AAC think we are due to leave. Most of us are in fact not due to leave until approx 2015, admittedly the majority will be way past IPP at the time but they are still up on the manning board as "in" for the duration.
From a purely selfish perspective I don't suppose it matters a jot anymore as I've made my decision and I know that I won't be missed. And actually at this point in time there is no incentive planned or available that would make me stay. It's why I've come around to this way of thinking that is the problem.
Treat people fairly, keep them informed, ask opinions and act on them when possible/feasible, never mess with money, leave, families or food.
It isn't that hard.
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After a great weekend at Middle Wallop, meeting with friends that I've not seen for a while, the one thing that struck me was just how well the Australian forces are going to do out of the UK Apache program!
Did anybody mention the light switch?
Did anybody mention the light switch?
Bloody right the Aussies are doing well out of AH drivers, not only AH drivers either but a few of our other type drivers including planks are shooting off as well. Still everythings rosey !!
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Good to see lots of old faces over the weekend. A sign of growing old, seems to be that of all the friends I spoke with seemed to be getting out of the Army, than staying in. 
Mutley 4, you make some very interesting points, I hope DAAvn read them. Regarding the capping at level 22, I was once told that it was set that way to appeal more to Sgts, remember when we had lots of 22 year Sergeant pilots, who would be very happy to be on PES and getting the same pension as a WO1, without getting off their arris, just plod along fat dumb and 'appy.
The problem with that is that people like you, with drive and ambition want more. You want more?
Mutley, you can't please everyone. The problem is, after this weekend, I don't know anyone that is happy!
Mutley 4, you make some very interesting points, I hope DAAvn read them. Regarding the capping at level 22, I was once told that it was set that way to appeal more to Sgts, remember when we had lots of 22 year Sergeant pilots, who would be very happy to be on PES and getting the same pension as a WO1, without getting off their arris, just plod along fat dumb and 'appy.
The problem with that is that people like you, with drive and ambition want more. You want more?
Mutley, you can't please everyone. The problem is, after this weekend, I don't know anyone that is happy!
Last edited by owe ver chute; 17th Sep 2007 at 22:41.
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Tri-Service Flying Pay!
Apparently DAAvn has announced that as of April 08 the services will come in line with regards to flying pay.
The only specific we were told of was that RAF and RN will not receive flying pay until Converted to type (CTT/OCU) as per the current AAC practise. Cant see that going down to well with those currently at JEFTS/DHFS.
No further info was passed on but I hope that the P2/P1,tour length and commander status issues are resolved as this is what really matters to those of us currently doing the job. This could be good news but I am not holding my breath.
Che'
The only specific we were told of was that RAF and RN will not receive flying pay until Converted to type (CTT/OCU) as per the current AAC practise. Cant see that going down to well with those currently at JEFTS/DHFS.
No further info was passed on but I hope that the P2/P1,tour length and commander status issues are resolved as this is what really matters to those of us currently doing the job. This could be good news but I am not holding my breath.
Che'
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Thanks for the info but I am not sure this information from DAAvn helps the folks that have been caught in the middle ground; it seems as though the Army are just dragging the RAF and RN down to the AAC's level which means the cheapest option. It will be interested to see what happens to the folks caught in the middle ground from the RAF and RN. I assume it will be no recovery action for the folks that have got it and tough luck on the rest who are awaiting to move up levels.
Or looking at it differently/cynically, is DAAvn trying to suggest that those people thinking of jumping (the list is long) that it will not financially benefit them by making the move from AAC to RAF?
Or looking at it differently/cynically, is DAAvn trying to suggest that those people thinking of jumping (the list is long) that it will not financially benefit them by making the move from AAC to RAF?
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The change mostly impacts those who would get flying pay from the 72 week point. RN & RAF now get flying pay post CTT, same as Army Air Corps. Just to add, the pilots on CH47 CTT have to wait the longest.
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As an outsider looking in, the AAC have always been a professional bunch who I have the utmost respect for. I have been in the RAF a long time and worked alondside you guys on many occasions and it seems that the AACs main problem is the poor attitude your lords and masters have towards you and your ability. You fly, you operate in the same OOA locations alongside us yet you get a bum deal. I feel for you, I really do but before you leave and shut the door on it, rather than turn out the light howabout jumping across to the RAF or FAA because if you choose to vote with your feet to prove a point, your lords and masters would have a herd of cows.
COME ON IN THE WATERS LURVELY
....
COME ON IN THE WATERS LURVELY
....
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Tri-service flying pay
Interesting that it took a major uproar/change of flying pay regulations in order that we in the AAC get paid the same as our compatriots in the other two services!. That is if it is really true!.
Was talking to an RAF friend today and he made a very valid point:
Given that AAC aircrew recieve the lowest rate of flying pay upon completion of CTT, how much money do we actually lose out on for doing a comparible job.
We compared our last 6 years of flying since qualifying.
Army: £6.77 upon qualification untill Ac Comd Qual ( 2 years = £4,942)
£12.95 upon Ac Comd status ( 6 years = £18,907)
Total to date= £23,849
RAF/RN: £12.95 upon qualification ( 4 years = £18,907)
£21.97 after 4 years on preceding rate (2 years = £16,038)
Total to date= £34,945
He made a very good point that the earning situation/disparity will only get worse as time goes on and that getting to Enhanced rate even 2 years earlier widens the gulf considerably over a full career!.
If someone can give me a straight forward answer as to why being an army aviator means that I get paid considerably less that Light/Dark blue, then I am all ears!.
Interesting that if I transfer to the RAF/RN I would immediatley go onto the next rate of pay by virtue of my wings qualification date!, I would eat my frickin hat if that is going to be implemented in April 08!.
No doubt we will have to "dry our eyes" and take the fact that we are army aviators as reward enough. Sadly even if I wanted to swell my chest with pride it still would'nt be as big as my oppos wallet!.
;-)
Ralph
Was talking to an RAF friend today and he made a very valid point:
Given that AAC aircrew recieve the lowest rate of flying pay upon completion of CTT, how much money do we actually lose out on for doing a comparible job.
We compared our last 6 years of flying since qualifying.
Army: £6.77 upon qualification untill Ac Comd Qual ( 2 years = £4,942)
£12.95 upon Ac Comd status ( 6 years = £18,907)
Total to date= £23,849
RAF/RN: £12.95 upon qualification ( 4 years = £18,907)
£21.97 after 4 years on preceding rate (2 years = £16,038)
Total to date= £34,945
He made a very good point that the earning situation/disparity will only get worse as time goes on and that getting to Enhanced rate even 2 years earlier widens the gulf considerably over a full career!.
If someone can give me a straight forward answer as to why being an army aviator means that I get paid considerably less that Light/Dark blue, then I am all ears!.
Interesting that if I transfer to the RAF/RN I would immediatley go onto the next rate of pay by virtue of my wings qualification date!, I would eat my frickin hat if that is going to be implemented in April 08!.
No doubt we will have to "dry our eyes" and take the fact that we are army aviators as reward enough. Sadly even if I wanted to swell my chest with pride it still would'nt be as big as my oppos wallet!.
;-)
Ralph
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I am so sad for the corps.
After reading the last 3million messages ref the new pay farce......I can only wish you guys still serving all the very best. You have been and are being...poo'd upon heavily. I have only been out 3 years after 17 as a "true blue" and I loved every single day and still miss a lot of things about the life. The difference now is I have a life...my own. I loved the Corps and EVERY person I met wether I was refueling, door gunning, teaching in the training wing or flying. Good luck to you all with the farce that is your management. The water out here is clean, clear, warm and much better paid ! and getting a salary for what is only 6 months of work is well worth it.
Stay safe and dont take it from them......do it. As another person said...vote with your feet. Good luck and best wishes to you all.
FCL
Stay safe and dont take it from them......do it. As another person said...vote with your feet. Good luck and best wishes to you all.
FCL
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AAC Flying Pay Change
I walked to the RAF many years ago, retired at 50 and do not regret a minute of my time. The Army was brilliant I had a fantastic time, lots off hard work but times to be remembered . The RAF was also a fantastic time with lots of hard work and times to be remembered. We were working ultimately for the same company and it is ultimately what standard of life and what you ultimately want to achieve that must govern your decision. The decision is ultimately yours.
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I am in an optimistic mood; has anybody had any update on whether this measure might be reversed for the 300ish people that were told there flying pay increment date was shifted to the right?
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Been a while since this thread has been discussed.
After a rumour that the AAC will be reviewing its flying pay rates/regulations to come into line with the RAF/RN, nothing has been heard.
I find it very hard to believe that the esteemed workers in puzzle palace at DAAvn are not working all the hours god sends to redress the unfairness between services!.
But then they are probably scratching their heads trying to work out why a large number of AAC officers are either leaving or transferring.
Anyone heard any news?.
After a rumour that the AAC will be reviewing its flying pay rates/regulations to come into line with the RAF/RN, nothing has been heard.
I find it very hard to believe that the esteemed workers in puzzle palace at DAAvn are not working all the hours god sends to redress the unfairness between services!.
But then they are probably scratching their heads trying to work out why a large number of AAC officers are either leaving or transferring.
Anyone heard any news?.