AAC Flying Pay change
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Ginseng
Many thanks for that and I understand what you are telling me. Making the decision on OTT in the RAF should have been a relatively easy one to make as most people would have known whether they were likely to serve until 55 or indeed if they would want to, I imagine that there was a massive uptake of the offer.
The AAC on the other hand made it perfectly clear, including MCM unit briefings to all non-AH line pilots that the chance of serving past 22 years was effectively NIL. This has to have been a major factor in making the decision to stay on AFPS 75 (well it was the clincher for me). I could probably quantify this by asking how many people (non AH/QHI) elected to change to AFPS 05. I could be wrong but I reckon I could count them on one hand.
I'm sure that when/if VEng is introduced then those same people will feel a bit cheated by the system. This is in fact changing the whole picture and as such I feel it would be only fair to re-offer the pension transfer option. We will not be the only Corps with this problem and I would be interested to know how others are feeling.
I realise what the "rules" state. But I also realise that rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. If they can change the terms of service then surely they can rethink other options. Actually the offer of VEng combined with the offer to transfer to AFPS05 would be a useful carrot to have in the bag for retention, it puts people straight back into a pension trap that they wouldn't want to leave early.
I also believe that pigs can fly. Of course the easy solution is to make it clear that extended service of any kind is voluntary and as such I can get right back in my little box.
All of course just my useless opinion.
The AAC on the other hand made it perfectly clear, including MCM unit briefings to all non-AH line pilots that the chance of serving past 22 years was effectively NIL. This has to have been a major factor in making the decision to stay on AFPS 75 (well it was the clincher for me). I could probably quantify this by asking how many people (non AH/QHI) elected to change to AFPS 05. I could be wrong but I reckon I could count them on one hand.
I'm sure that when/if VEng is introduced then those same people will feel a bit cheated by the system. This is in fact changing the whole picture and as such I feel it would be only fair to re-offer the pension transfer option. We will not be the only Corps with this problem and I would be interested to know how others are feeling.
I realise what the "rules" state. But I also realise that rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. If they can change the terms of service then surely they can rethink other options. Actually the offer of VEng combined with the offer to transfer to AFPS05 would be a useful carrot to have in the bag for retention, it puts people straight back into a pension trap that they wouldn't want to leave early.
I also believe that pigs can fly. Of course the easy solution is to make it clear that extended service of any kind is voluntary and as such I can get right back in my little box.
All of course just my useless opinion.
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Three guesses what...
Hello fellow PPRUNERS!
I have been very active behind the scenes trying to get our voice heard about this pay **** up. To date, I have written to my MP and David Cameron. Also I was able to speak to CGS at length about it and he was shocked at our treatment by DAAVN. I have 'heard' that the SUN newspaper has wind of this also.
I will try every option (including a good moan) before I make the final move and jump ship. Perhaps a joint petition? Or everybody being grounded due to stress? It sounds really desperate (almost mutanous) to say this stuff but what loyalty have DAAVN shown us? Being told to mark time by the Regimental Colonel isn't good enough in 2007, or pretending that they are protecting some from repayments!!!! Bull ***
I have been very active behind the scenes trying to get our voice heard about this pay **** up. To date, I have written to my MP and David Cameron. Also I was able to speak to CGS at length about it and he was shocked at our treatment by DAAVN. I have 'heard' that the SUN newspaper has wind of this also.
I will try every option (including a good moan) before I make the final move and jump ship. Perhaps a joint petition? Or everybody being grounded due to stress? It sounds really desperate (almost mutanous) to say this stuff but what loyalty have DAAVN shown us? Being told to mark time by the Regimental Colonel isn't good enough in 2007, or pretending that they are protecting some from repayments!!!! Bull ***
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Ron F
Don't get me wrong, I do not disagree with the sentiment of your main argument; it just isn't going to happen.
There probably were differences between the 3 Services in the rate of uptake of AFPS 05, and I don't know what they were, but I can assure you that it was by no means an easy and obvious choice for the majority of RAF personnel. The fact that across the 3 services as a whole, the voluntary transfer rate was limited to about 8% should tell us something about how wonderfully tempting the offer was for the majority of people!
Regards
Ginseng
There probably were differences between the 3 Services in the rate of uptake of AFPS 05, and I don't know what they were, but I can assure you that it was by no means an easy and obvious choice for the majority of RAF personnel. The fact that across the 3 services as a whole, the voluntary transfer rate was limited to about 8% should tell us something about how wonderfully tempting the offer was for the majority of people!
Regards
Ginseng
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Lost, me old skip jack son of a sea dog.
Whilst I'm sure the vast majority of people would agree with everything you say, I feel it may be a little harder to actually get them to act. I for one am more than happy to voice my displeasure, and this whole episode is making me think of my next move VERY carefully.
Getting everyones ears to go pop on the same day would certainly make people take note. However, it would only have the desired effect if you can get enough people on board. On paper that shouldn't be too hard, in practice?....
Come to think of it, I am a little bit sniffly today. Is there something going round?
Whilst I'm sure the vast majority of people would agree with everything you say, I feel it may be a little harder to actually get them to act. I for one am more than happy to voice my displeasure, and this whole episode is making me think of my next move VERY carefully.
Getting everyones ears to go pop on the same day would certainly make people take note. However, it would only have the desired effect if you can get enough people on board. On paper that shouldn't be too hard, in practice?....
Come to think of it, I am a little bit sniffly today. Is there something going round?
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Lost in Space.
A credit to you my pruning friend. At least someone has the gumption about them to do something, albeit probably to no avail but your stance is credit to you and all that support you (definately me) in this diabolical fiasco. I have just come off operations and due to go back on operations middle of the year and for what reason - to keep this country safe and sound against terrorism.
Now the question is can I really sustain my level head in an active operational area while worrrying about my finances and the lack of the extra money for which I was expecting and based my mortgage on, guess thats not the kind of thing you want in the back of your mind when the bullets are flying. What will the hierachy say "Get on with it" just as they always do but your right, in 2007, this day and age, do I really have to just get on with it, my a--e I do.
All we are is a statistical object and they give not 2 ****es about us so bout time to start thinking of numero uno.
Cannot wait to see the outcome of the letters to MP and Cameron and looks like the sun news will be well worth the 35p a day for the next few weeks.
No wonder they wont let us join a union which I am sure is a violation of my human rights cause they know fine well that they would not get away with any of the s--t that comes our way.
A credit to you my pruning friend. At least someone has the gumption about them to do something, albeit probably to no avail but your stance is credit to you and all that support you (definately me) in this diabolical fiasco. I have just come off operations and due to go back on operations middle of the year and for what reason - to keep this country safe and sound against terrorism.
Now the question is can I really sustain my level head in an active operational area while worrrying about my finances and the lack of the extra money for which I was expecting and based my mortgage on, guess thats not the kind of thing you want in the back of your mind when the bullets are flying. What will the hierachy say "Get on with it" just as they always do but your right, in 2007, this day and age, do I really have to just get on with it, my a--e I do.
All we are is a statistical object and they give not 2 ****es about us so bout time to start thinking of numero uno.
Cannot wait to see the outcome of the letters to MP and Cameron and looks like the sun news will be well worth the 35p a day for the next few weeks.
No wonder they wont let us join a union which I am sure is a violation of my human rights cause they know fine well that they would not get away with any of the s--t that comes our way.
Re the swapping of AFPS75 to 05 or vice versa, the OTT was purely based on a "snapshot" of your circumstances at the time, decisions were irreversible aside from as stated earlier those made redundant within a certain time frame or if you inconveniently died, your spouse could elect to change. The only exception I know of was if your terms of service were incorrect at the decision making time or you had every reason to believe you were under certain terms of service (for example, a signal from your own desk officer telling you that you are now IRC and have a job until your 50th birthday) but then it subsequently turns out that the AAC are not going to conform with the rest of the Army, the OTT board have been sympathetic. What galled me was not a single acknowledgement from anyone accepting the error and recognising the angst it had put so many of us through. It's all about people.
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To give all of this some perspective - consider the following:
The following is calculated over the period at which DAAVN has now set our mid rate flying pay.
So from wings to AC Comd (15 months in this case), and then a further 4 years from there before middle rate:
Under the new system:
Total pay would be £23,629.
Made up of P2 pay of £4,205 and A/C Comd pay (aka flying pay anywhere other than the AAC) of £19,424.
Under the ‘old’ system (where middle rate is 4 years from wings):
Total pay would be £30,002
Made up of P2 pay of £4,205, A/C Comd pay of £10,270 and mid Rate flying pay of £15,527.
Even more morale giving:
Compare an AAC Officer pilot with any RN/RM or RAF pilot getting wings at the same time:
Total flying pay of £33,848
Made up of flying pay of (aka A/C Comd pay in the AAC) of £18,320 and Mid Rate flying pay of £15,527.
The figures get more ridiculous if you then look at how much you lose out on over the 8 years from wings and into top/enhanced rates.
What is so grating about this pathetic measure is that the decision has been made by those who are more than happy on their enhanced rates of flying pay and whose likelihood of getting in an operational helicopter, let alone flying one around Iraq or Afghanistan, is distinctly remote.
Of course these people count their jobs as ‘flying related’. If you can count watching aircraft fly past the window at DAVVN a flying related job.
Call me cynical but with these sort of incentives to work ever harder with less and less it’s increasingly hard not to be….!
The following is calculated over the period at which DAAVN has now set our mid rate flying pay.
So from wings to AC Comd (15 months in this case), and then a further 4 years from there before middle rate:
Under the new system:
Total pay would be £23,629.
Made up of P2 pay of £4,205 and A/C Comd pay (aka flying pay anywhere other than the AAC) of £19,424.
Under the ‘old’ system (where middle rate is 4 years from wings):
Total pay would be £30,002
Made up of P2 pay of £4,205, A/C Comd pay of £10,270 and mid Rate flying pay of £15,527.
Even more morale giving:
Compare an AAC Officer pilot with any RN/RM or RAF pilot getting wings at the same time:
Total flying pay of £33,848
Made up of flying pay of (aka A/C Comd pay in the AAC) of £18,320 and Mid Rate flying pay of £15,527.
The figures get more ridiculous if you then look at how much you lose out on over the 8 years from wings and into top/enhanced rates.
What is so grating about this pathetic measure is that the decision has been made by those who are more than happy on their enhanced rates of flying pay and whose likelihood of getting in an operational helicopter, let alone flying one around Iraq or Afghanistan, is distinctly remote.
Of course these people count their jobs as ‘flying related’. If you can count watching aircraft fly past the window at DAVVN a flying related job.
Call me cynical but with these sort of incentives to work ever harder with less and less it’s increasingly hard not to be….!
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This cannot go unchallenged.
The Directorate needs to be made quite clear that this is not simply about the money ... it is about a failure of leadership by the AAC's command.
.
Even if the Lt Col who signed his name to D/AAvn/31/003 dated 1 Mar 07 bothered to fight the cause on behalf those who will be worst affected (which I very much doubt), there has been a monumental corporate comms failure by HQ DAAvn through their complete lack of desire to have any dialogue with the Corps' aircrew over this issue. This simply exacerbates the perception that we are held in complete contempt by them.
.
Anyone who has earned their wings since Feb 1995 will be affected, and will receive less pay than they will have had a legitimate expectation of earning. The opening line of that letter claims that "the rules for transition to P1 rates of flying pay .... have been interpreted in an inconsistent manner across the Corps for some time".
.
I challenge you to name a single AAC officer, at any time during the last 16 years, who has not progressed up the rates of flying pay on the 4-yr anniversary of their wings parade.
.
There was nothing inconsistent about the interpretation of the rules at all. This is a blatant change in the accepted practice, which effectively reduces the value of the rewards package that an AAC pilot receives over his/her entire career.
.
In my case, the difference will amount £16,185.42. Or, to put it another way, I have received a pay CUT of 8.34% for each and every day between now and when I eventually catch up to the level I believed I would be at. This will happen again in 4 yrs time (although in my case, I can categorically state that I will not remain in the AAC long enough for that to matter - I wonder how many others are feeling the same way?)
.
Others, who will suffer disproportionately more, include all Cpl pilots who were prevented from occupying aircraft commander LSNs until they promoted to Sgt, and pretty much anyone who took longer than the minimum six month period because of the attrocious serviceability (particularly on Lynx) during the late 90's and early 00's.
.
The present Director is quite happy to bask in the reflected glory of the Corps and its aircrew ... and so he must also be prepared to bear the responsibility for the weaknesses of his staff, particularly the G1 branch at HQ DAAvn. All the officers involved must be made quite clear that their failure to fight this, their failure to communicate honestly and openly with those most seriously affected, and their treachery in trading off the Corps' best interests in return for being 'allowed' to remain on enhanced rates of flying pay themselves, is utterly disgusting and reprehensible to pretty much the entirety of those they are supposed to serve. I hope they choke on their 30 pieces of silver. This scandal will tarnish them for the remainder of their careers.
.
In the meantime, may I suggest that everyone registers their disapproval by cancelling their 'two day's pay' contribution to the AAC Association.
.
Even if the Lt Col who signed his name to D/AAvn/31/003 dated 1 Mar 07 bothered to fight the cause on behalf those who will be worst affected (which I very much doubt), there has been a monumental corporate comms failure by HQ DAAvn through their complete lack of desire to have any dialogue with the Corps' aircrew over this issue. This simply exacerbates the perception that we are held in complete contempt by them.
.
Anyone who has earned their wings since Feb 1995 will be affected, and will receive less pay than they will have had a legitimate expectation of earning. The opening line of that letter claims that "the rules for transition to P1 rates of flying pay .... have been interpreted in an inconsistent manner across the Corps for some time".
.
I challenge you to name a single AAC officer, at any time during the last 16 years, who has not progressed up the rates of flying pay on the 4-yr anniversary of their wings parade.
.
There was nothing inconsistent about the interpretation of the rules at all. This is a blatant change in the accepted practice, which effectively reduces the value of the rewards package that an AAC pilot receives over his/her entire career.
.
In my case, the difference will amount £16,185.42. Or, to put it another way, I have received a pay CUT of 8.34% for each and every day between now and when I eventually catch up to the level I believed I would be at. This will happen again in 4 yrs time (although in my case, I can categorically state that I will not remain in the AAC long enough for that to matter - I wonder how many others are feeling the same way?)
.
Others, who will suffer disproportionately more, include all Cpl pilots who were prevented from occupying aircraft commander LSNs until they promoted to Sgt, and pretty much anyone who took longer than the minimum six month period because of the attrocious serviceability (particularly on Lynx) during the late 90's and early 00's.
.
The present Director is quite happy to bask in the reflected glory of the Corps and its aircrew ... and so he must also be prepared to bear the responsibility for the weaknesses of his staff, particularly the G1 branch at HQ DAAvn. All the officers involved must be made quite clear that their failure to fight this, their failure to communicate honestly and openly with those most seriously affected, and their treachery in trading off the Corps' best interests in return for being 'allowed' to remain on enhanced rates of flying pay themselves, is utterly disgusting and reprehensible to pretty much the entirety of those they are supposed to serve. I hope they choke on their 30 pieces of silver. This scandal will tarnish them for the remainder of their careers.
.
In the meantime, may I suggest that everyone registers their disapproval by cancelling their 'two day's pay' contribution to the AAC Association.
Last edited by Greenielynxpilot; 24th Mar 2007 at 02:16.
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I'm sorry chaps - I left the Corps in 99 after some 20 odd years, I only left because the w**ker in Glasgow f***ed me about from ar***ole to breakfast and was unable to give me any of the information I needed about extending and all promises expired spectacularly. I was really p**sed off about having to leave. I thought someone might appreciate a 5000hr QHI who really did want to go AH. As it happens I was out on my ear before I knew it... and it has taken nearly eight years to realise what, as an NCO, my net worth to the Corps really was. Answer. F*ck all!!! Vote with your feet and leave if you feel hard done by, no other action is as remotely effective. There are plenty of opportunities out there, just bite the bullet and go.
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Greenie,
I was as surprised as you are about to be when I learned today that there are a lot of officers out there that did not progress to middle rate flying pay until after 4 years as an A/C Comd (5-6 years from flying trg), meaning they will not be affected by the "revised" rules. Basically I spoke to 3 different DE Officers in different departments that all said the same thing so I'm (probably wrongly) assuming this is the case for many others. I should add that these people don't work at DAAvn so there wasn't a party line to be seen.
Personally I haven't even seen the list, nobody in my CoC has mentioned it to me. Can anyone tell me if the list also has DE officers on it ? I'm only asking to see if this problem is confined to NCO/LE aircrew. If so then maybe the people making the decisions won't feel so guilty. If I am right then it would logically mean that ex-Cpl pilots and those taking a long time to achieve A/C Comd satus will be worst hit. I'm not suggesting for one second that it's fair but if this is the case then it will be harder to defend.
Can anyone correct me ?
I was as surprised as you are about to be when I learned today that there are a lot of officers out there that did not progress to middle rate flying pay until after 4 years as an A/C Comd (5-6 years from flying trg), meaning they will not be affected by the "revised" rules. Basically I spoke to 3 different DE Officers in different departments that all said the same thing so I'm (probably wrongly) assuming this is the case for many others. I should add that these people don't work at DAAvn so there wasn't a party line to be seen.
Personally I haven't even seen the list, nobody in my CoC has mentioned it to me. Can anyone tell me if the list also has DE officers on it ? I'm only asking to see if this problem is confined to NCO/LE aircrew. If so then maybe the people making the decisions won't feel so guilty. If I am right then it would logically mean that ex-Cpl pilots and those taking a long time to achieve A/C Comd satus will be worst hit. I'm not suggesting for one second that it's fair but if this is the case then it will be harder to defend.
Can anyone correct me ?
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Ron,
There are indeed many DE Officers on the list and, quite a few Majors at that, although the majority affected are the former Cpl pilots who could not progress until promoted to Sgt.
Greenie,
'In the meantime, may I suggest that everyone registers their disapproval by cancelling their 'two day's pay' contribution to the AAC Association.'
I think this action is divisive, although I agree something has to done to highlight the issue. I have a couple of mates who are now disabled and the AACA has paid handsomely for adequate facilities to assist their condition whilst at home. The AACA has also recently paid for a deceased pilots children, who was not a AACA member incidentally, to complete and indeed start private education. They also donate an awful lot of money to ex-AAC members who have fallen on hard times in one way or another so I cannot sign up to your option.
h
There are indeed many DE Officers on the list and, quite a few Majors at that, although the majority affected are the former Cpl pilots who could not progress until promoted to Sgt.
Greenie,
'In the meantime, may I suggest that everyone registers their disapproval by cancelling their 'two day's pay' contribution to the AAC Association.'
I think this action is divisive, although I agree something has to done to highlight the issue. I have a couple of mates who are now disabled and the AACA has paid handsomely for adequate facilities to assist their condition whilst at home. The AACA has also recently paid for a deceased pilots children, who was not a AACA member incidentally, to complete and indeed start private education. They also donate an awful lot of money to ex-AAC members who have fallen on hard times in one way or another so I cannot sign up to your option.
h
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I dont believe for one minute that any officers waited 4 years after initial Ac comd to go to middle rate, ifs there is only 3 then they must have been a bit wet behind the ears and should have kicked the pay office into action to get onto middle rate 4 years after wings as everyone else did in the corps.
As for the AACA, I will remain as would like to think that if I ever fell on hard times someone would be there for me. However I agree that someone in the Directorate should be standing up with big shoulders and owning up to the fact that they were the one, or ones, who sold us down the river and then
f--king resign in disgrace before the corps falls from around its feet. You know who you are!!!
A suggestion would be to have a open discussion at the corps birthday when hopefully everyone will be present apart from those on op tours working their balls off for not as much pay as they originally thought they were going to get, a severe chest poking session in the AACA tent.
In fact can any one tell me - If you are a member of the the association does this guarantee you entry to the AACA tent as one year I was told to hoof it as I was a SNCO and only Officers were allowed in. Food for thought.
As for the AACA, I will remain as would like to think that if I ever fell on hard times someone would be there for me. However I agree that someone in the Directorate should be standing up with big shoulders and owning up to the fact that they were the one, or ones, who sold us down the river and then
f--king resign in disgrace before the corps falls from around its feet. You know who you are!!!
A suggestion would be to have a open discussion at the corps birthday when hopefully everyone will be present apart from those on op tours working their balls off for not as much pay as they originally thought they were going to get, a severe chest poking session in the AACA tent.
In fact can any one tell me - If you are a member of the the association does this guarantee you entry to the AACA tent as one year I was told to hoof it as I was a SNCO and only Officers were allowed in. Food for thought.
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I can imagine the discussions at MOD with this one.
AAC Rep : Er Sir Humphrey, we wish to change the interpretation on Army flying pay so our chaps are not penalised financially, it would be a positive retention measure but it is going to cost more money.
Sir Humphrey: Really, what do the other 2 services do?
AAC Rep: They do it the way we want to do it.
Sir Humphrey: Ahh I see. You just wish it to be the same across the service aircrew?
AAC Rep: Yes
Sir Humphrey: Perhaps they could do it the Army way, might that save more money?
AAC Rep: Well that might get my chaps orf my back .....
Total fiction right?
AAC Rep : Er Sir Humphrey, we wish to change the interpretation on Army flying pay so our chaps are not penalised financially, it would be a positive retention measure but it is going to cost more money.
Sir Humphrey: Really, what do the other 2 services do?
AAC Rep: They do it the way we want to do it.
Sir Humphrey: Ahh I see. You just wish it to be the same across the service aircrew?
AAC Rep: Yes
Sir Humphrey: Perhaps they could do it the Army way, might that save more money?
AAC Rep: Well that might get my chaps orf my back .....
Total fiction right?
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Any tuther news about the fiasco. Any one heard through the grapevine that all pilots are to receive back pay for P1 top rate from wings and a £50000 tax free bonus for messing us around - No i thought not - wishful thinking again. More people required to comment on this site, it it affects you then comment so at least the readers from DAAvn will know it is fully supported across the corps.
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As an army pilot I would like someone to tell me why as an Army Pilot am I being paid much less than my fellow mates in the other 2 services!!! Im trying to get the reason behind this into my head, lets think, same pilots course, same standards, same job, same tours, but totally different pay? WHY??? JPA (joint)??? How on a joint pay scheme can I be paid less than an RAF and Navy pilot??
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Well i think the powers that be are must be realising there are alot of unhappy chappies out there!
You can put up with the sh*t but as soon as the £ signs are mentioned and you effect what's put into people's wallets, they'll turn around and bite you in the ass!
So stand by the door is open and the feet are a walking and you can keep your carrots!
You can put up with the sh*t but as soon as the £ signs are mentioned and you effect what's put into people's wallets, they'll turn around and bite you in the ass!
So stand by the door is open and the feet are a walking and you can keep your carrots!
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Hear, Hear!
I have been reading PPrune for a couple of years now and this has finally spurred me on to register.
It is, frankly, shocking that we are being treated in this way and I, for one, will not be renewing my subscription to the Journal...
AHV
I have been reading PPrune for a couple of years now and this has finally spurred me on to register.
It is, frankly, shocking that we are being treated in this way and I, for one, will not be renewing my subscription to the Journal...
AHV