AAC Flying Pay change
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Always the less well looked after and now the lesser paid too! and with the increased frequency of Op tours... Wow, DAAvn must know with absolute certainty that his mass of SNCO aircrew won't leave before their 22 years inspite of how badly their terms and conditions get rearranged to suit this latest cash saving farce 
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My shredder has just eaten my application form to participate in the wonderful forthcoming 50th anniversary celebrations.
When, as an Airtpr, I participated in the 25th Anniversary back in '82, I would not have believed that things could ever come to such a pass as they have now. Frankly I am disgusted that my former Flt Comd, now DAAvn, could have allowed this to occur.
Naaaaaargh, scratch that -anyone who can ban ketchup and sliced bread from his mess could easily permit such 'minor' inconveniences as the present pay debacle to take place. (Cluck cluck, gibber gibber, my old man's a mushroom etc).
But as already noted, the persons responsible are already well feathered for their retirement funds, just like Bliar & Co plc, so the rest of you can just - well, transfer to the crabs actually. Or the airlines. Or anywhere else that you might just start to feel valued for your contribution. But certainly not in the Army Aeroplane Club.
What a tragic waste of a fine Corps!
When, as an Airtpr, I participated in the 25th Anniversary back in '82, I would not have believed that things could ever come to such a pass as they have now. Frankly I am disgusted that my former Flt Comd, now DAAvn, could have allowed this to occur.
Naaaaaargh, scratch that -anyone who can ban ketchup and sliced bread from his mess could easily permit such 'minor' inconveniences as the present pay debacle to take place. (Cluck cluck, gibber gibber, my old man's a mushroom etc).
But as already noted, the persons responsible are already well feathered for their retirement funds, just like Bliar & Co plc, so the rest of you can just - well, transfer to the crabs actually. Or the airlines. Or anywhere else that you might just start to feel valued for your contribution. But certainly not in the Army Aeroplane Club.
What a tragic waste of a fine Corps!
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Spurlash, Yes it is the same thing and I stand corrected.
Cheers.
P.S I got confused (easily done) by the term Rearcrew, and even more confused because it was level 28 (not 29).
I'll get my coat.
Cheers.
P.S I got confused (easily done) by the term Rearcrew, and even more confused because it was level 28 (not 29).
I'll get my coat.
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It would appear that the message is hitting the HQ with considerable pace as people have told me that other letters are now hitting the offices, 1 alledgedly mentioning the that it was not very tactful how the news was delivered to the corps, no s--t sherlock, bit late now lofty - damage done!!
If someone out there represented us so well at the AFPRB then clearly it was some other clown who has sold us down the river cause I am naturally assuming that whoever represented us through all this fiasco naturally fought to keep the present structure (as we all know it) in place and have the JSP754 or pay warrant amended to reflect what has been happening over the last 13 years that i have been involved with the AAC and god knows how many more years before that.
Questions.
1. Who represented the Corps at the AFPRB?
2. Who represented us in the implementation against JPA?
3. Who made the f--k up in the first place?
4. Has any tackled the legal side of this yet?
5. Are we all gonna stick together on this one and see it through to the end?
If someone out there represented us so well at the AFPRB then clearly it was some other clown who has sold us down the river cause I am naturally assuming that whoever represented us through all this fiasco naturally fought to keep the present structure (as we all know it) in place and have the JSP754 or pay warrant amended to reflect what has been happening over the last 13 years that i have been involved with the AAC and god knows how many more years before that.
Questions.
1. Who represented the Corps at the AFPRB?
2. Who represented us in the implementation against JPA?
3. Who made the f--k up in the first place?
4. Has any tackled the legal side of this yet?
5. Are we all gonna stick together on this one and see it through to the end?
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PES (A)
What I don’t understand is the poor set up of Army pilot pay? Notwithstanding the P2 to P1 debacle. When a Warrant Officer Class 1 on LSL (A) transfers onto PES (A) and if he was on the top rate of WO1 (likely because the point of transfer from normal rates of pay to PES (A) is IPP plus 5) it works out he will be on level 22. A Sergeant will reach level 22 after 8 Years or so on PES (A)
So if I am right (possibly)
the WO1 will mark time on this rate of pay for 10 years! Can that be fair? Someone in PS10 should lose the problem of a NCO accruing a Lt Colonel pension and allow the normal expectation of an annual increase in pay for every year and a pension representative of a full career as a pilot. 
So if I am right (possibly)
the WO1 will mark time on this rate of pay for 10 years! Can that be fair? Someone in PS10 should lose the problem of a NCO accruing a Lt Colonel pension and allow the normal expectation of an annual increase in pay for every year and a pension representative of a full career as a pilot.
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PNVS,
Good point. I think if you work out the equivalent pensions for the levels of PAS against what rank they equate to on normal pension rates, you will see the reason why it is unacceptable to our lords and masters for WO to climb above level 22. The level 35 rate is equal to a red tab colonel. A warrant officer staying in until 55 could easily reach that level. Think that will be allowed or accepted?
I work with WO that are marking time on level 22. Each year I go up a level as I am LE, they do not.
Is that correct?
Professional Aviators should go up a level every year until they max out at level 35 right? ..... and then there is the real world.
Good point. I think if you work out the equivalent pensions for the levels of PAS against what rank they equate to on normal pension rates, you will see the reason why it is unacceptable to our lords and masters for WO to climb above level 22. The level 35 rate is equal to a red tab colonel. A warrant officer staying in until 55 could easily reach that level. Think that will be allowed or accepted?
I work with WO that are marking time on level 22. Each year I go up a level as I am LE, they do not.
Is that correct?
Professional Aviators should go up a level every year until they max out at level 35 right? ..... and then there is the real world.
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JEEP
A couple of quickies. Are you capped at a particular level as an LE or can you progress to level 35?
Also, I heard that moving on to PES(A) is automatic on commissioning (as long as IPP has been reached), do you know if this is correct?
Have you heard that there is a (draft) plan to change the rules on PES(A) so that NCO aircrew move onto it at IPP instead of IPP+5 ? (this is as likely as Santa bringing my kids a PS3 yesterday).
Personally I think that the final point would be a useful retention tool in light of current pay issues.
A couple of quickies. Are you capped at a particular level as an LE or can you progress to level 35?
Also, I heard that moving on to PES(A) is automatic on commissioning (as long as IPP has been reached), do you know if this is correct?
Have you heard that there is a (draft) plan to change the rules on PES(A) so that NCO aircrew move onto it at IPP instead of IPP+5 ? (this is as likely as Santa bringing my kids a PS3 yesterday).
Personally I think that the final point would be a useful retention tool in light of current pay issues.
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Count',
the only attractive feature I can see about about PES(A) is the fact that your whole salary is taken into account when it comes to the calculation of your pension. If you're not on the PA spine, it wouldn't matter if you were on super turbo enhanced flying pay, you'd only get a pension for the substansive rank that you're in. That's my uneducated take on it, it's still not parity and not much of a silver lining either. Especially when you consider just how few people in the Army actually make it onto the PA spine.
the only attractive feature I can see about about PES(A) is the fact that your whole salary is taken into account when it comes to the calculation of your pension. If you're not on the PA spine, it wouldn't matter if you were on super turbo enhanced flying pay, you'd only get a pension for the substansive rank that you're in. That's my uneducated take on it, it's still not parity and not much of a silver lining either. Especially when you consider just how few people in the Army actually make it onto the PA spine.
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Thats the clever bit about PES(A) its so subjective its almost unattainable, but still enough of a carrot to keep those too long in the tooth to be bothered to leave jumping to try and get on it.
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PES(A)
Count,
just to add to your figures.
On 07/08 rates a WO1 (level 7) on enhanced flying pay would go straight to level 22 on PES(A) and stay there, potentially for 10 years.
It's actually no difference to what happens before PES(A), I have been marking time on level 7 WO1 pay for 5 years now, the problem is that until (if ever) I get onto PES(A) none of my addpay is pensionable. Spookily enough my period of continuance runs out the day before I qualify for PES.
I can't think of any reason why the AAC accepted IPP+5 as a starting point for NCO PES(A), surely the starting point should be IPP at the very latest, with IPP-5 being a much better retention factor.
To be honest I am one of many people that believes we get paid a fair wage for what we do, especially at my level. What isn't fair is the disparity between services for those people doing the same job.
just to add to your figures.
On 07/08 rates a WO1 (level 7) on enhanced flying pay would go straight to level 22 on PES(A) and stay there, potentially for 10 years.
It's actually no difference to what happens before PES(A), I have been marking time on level 7 WO1 pay for 5 years now, the problem is that until (if ever) I get onto PES(A) none of my addpay is pensionable. Spookily enough my period of continuance runs out the day before I qualify for PES.
I can't think of any reason why the AAC accepted IPP+5 as a starting point for NCO PES(A), surely the starting point should be IPP at the very latest, with IPP-5 being a much better retention factor.
To be honest I am one of many people that believes we get paid a fair wage for what we do, especially at my level. What isn't fair is the disparity between services for those people doing the same job.
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nail, head, hit!
Ron,
you've hit the nail on the head there I think
. I don't think most people have a complaint about pay in general (of course more would be nice). It's the disparity across the services with regard to flying pay and FRI that seems to me to be the real bone of contention. This has certainly taken the shine off any 50th celebrations for me.
you've hit the nail on the head there I think
. I don't think most people have a complaint about pay in general (of course more would be nice). It's the disparity across the services with regard to flying pay and FRI that seems to me to be the real bone of contention. This has certainly taken the shine off any 50th celebrations for me.
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Count,
As I'm prone to getting my "maffs" wrong I've done a quick double check.
From AFPRB 07
WO1 Level 7 = £118.01 per day (£43077)
Enhanced Rate = £41.12 per day (£15008)
Total £58,085
PES(A) Level 22 = £58,674
Bear in mind that you can't take a pay drop (level 21 = £57,584).
Maybe the pay rise wasn't so bad after all!
Sorry if I appear to be pedantic, I'm not trying to be, just helping to make a point.
As I'm prone to getting my "maffs" wrong I've done a quick double check.
From AFPRB 07
WO1 Level 7 = £118.01 per day (£43077)
Enhanced Rate = £41.12 per day (£15008)
Total £58,085
PES(A) Level 22 = £58,674
Bear in mind that you can't take a pay drop (level 21 = £57,584).
Maybe the pay rise wasn't so bad after all!
Sorry if I appear to be pedantic, I'm not trying to be, just helping to make a point.
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Ron,
LE can climb to level 35. Transfer to PES(A) is not automatic, MCM hand them out after a board. Very few were handed out around the time of pension decision (another big trick missed on the retention boat, as some might have changed their pension and stayed).
There is no real advantage to being on PES(A) unless you can move up the scales past level 22 (LE), or have changed your pension to 05. Very few would have gambled on the pension decision anticipating that they might get PES(A).
2 very positive retention measures would be:
Allow AAC NCO Pilots to climb above level 22
Allow pension swap from 75 to 05 on award of PES(A).
Watch them pigs fly.
LE can climb to level 35. Transfer to PES(A) is not automatic, MCM hand them out after a board. Very few were handed out around the time of pension decision (another big trick missed on the retention boat, as some might have changed their pension and stayed).
There is no real advantage to being on PES(A) unless you can move up the scales past level 22 (LE), or have changed your pension to 05. Very few would have gambled on the pension decision anticipating that they might get PES(A).
2 very positive retention measures would be:
Allow AAC NCO Pilots to climb above level 22
Allow pension swap from 75 to 05 on award of PES(A).
Watch them pigs fly.
Swap pensions on award of PES(A)! You must be pi$$ed! They would never allow that, the people who manage us are the biggest green eyed monsters I have ever come across and the thought that someone who in their eyes are "temporary polyfilla" hiding the cracks that their mis-management of DE has created could possibly get an equivalent or better pension than them they will fight tooth and nail to stop. What grips me is the individual(s) who are supposed to fight our corner appear to be on their side and not ours for exactly the same reason or because they are sitting pretty. I find it incredible that the other two services find it a fairly straightforward process to become their equivalent of PES(A) but the amount of hoops we have to go through not forgetting the carrot dangling game they play plus the SSC/IRC debacle all add up to my decision to not bother.
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I'm not for one minute doubting anyones experience here but some of this info conflicts with what I am being told and I am on the verge of making career changing/continuing/leaving decisions.
This is what I've been told:
When the offer to transfer pension came around the decision could only be based on what was known at the time, ie: 22 year career. I was informed that in the event of my terms/conditions of service changing ie: commissioning, continuance or LSL(A) then I would have a further opportunity to transfer to 05. This worked the other way as well in that if I could have reasonably expected to serve to 55 and had elected to go onto 05, then subsequently got the old "services no longer required" at 48 then I could switch back to 75.
I got that pearl of wisdom straight from the mouth of the SO1 who signed the OTT letters, not from my RAO or the AAC.
It makes a lot of sense too as how the hell are people supposed to second guess the future, especially in the AAC. Only 2 years ago we were told there were too many pilots and that we needed to lose LOTS over the next 3 years. Guys were actually told to go and find ground jobs and that the chance of continuance/LSL was nil unless you were an AH pilot or an A1 QHI (OK, any QHI). Now we are being told the opposite and things like VEng are being banded about. Obviously the minute anyone takes up VEng they are going to want to switch to 05 as the difference is huge. Logically they must be given that opportunity. If this is not the case then it's a no-brainer, take the pension+lump sum and leave.
I would of thought that moving onto PES(A) was a change in terms/conditions of service, am I being silly?
All of the points raised on this thread need clarifying with the relevant PS depts and a precis/briefing given to all aircrew. People need to make informed decisions about their futures and moving goalposts monthly does not allow for this. These decisions also have to be tri-service to stop the AAC feeling like second class citizens.
Like a lot of people I would happily stay in until 55, I love being in the Army but like those same people I am aware of my earning potential in civvy street and the quality of life on offer, might not be as much fun at work but hey-ho I have got a family to think of. I don't mind 6 months a year on ops for the next 15 years as long as my terms are as fair as the next bloke (the one in Blue).
This is what I've been told:
When the offer to transfer pension came around the decision could only be based on what was known at the time, ie: 22 year career. I was informed that in the event of my terms/conditions of service changing ie: commissioning, continuance or LSL(A) then I would have a further opportunity to transfer to 05. This worked the other way as well in that if I could have reasonably expected to serve to 55 and had elected to go onto 05, then subsequently got the old "services no longer required" at 48 then I could switch back to 75.
I got that pearl of wisdom straight from the mouth of the SO1 who signed the OTT letters, not from my RAO or the AAC.
It makes a lot of sense too as how the hell are people supposed to second guess the future, especially in the AAC. Only 2 years ago we were told there were too many pilots and that we needed to lose LOTS over the next 3 years. Guys were actually told to go and find ground jobs and that the chance of continuance/LSL was nil unless you were an AH pilot or an A1 QHI (OK, any QHI). Now we are being told the opposite and things like VEng are being banded about. Obviously the minute anyone takes up VEng they are going to want to switch to 05 as the difference is huge. Logically they must be given that opportunity. If this is not the case then it's a no-brainer, take the pension+lump sum and leave.
I would of thought that moving onto PES(A) was a change in terms/conditions of service, am I being silly?
All of the points raised on this thread need clarifying with the relevant PS depts and a precis/briefing given to all aircrew. People need to make informed decisions about their futures and moving goalposts monthly does not allow for this. These decisions also have to be tri-service to stop the AAC feeling like second class citizens.
Like a lot of people I would happily stay in until 55, I love being in the Army but like those same people I am aware of my earning potential in civvy street and the quality of life on offer, might not be as much fun at work but hey-ho I have got a family to think of. I don't mind 6 months a year on ops for the next 15 years as long as my terms are as fair as the next bloke (the one in Blue).
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Ron Fenest
I fear you were led up the garden path. There never was a conditional offer to be able to reconsider transfer to AFPS05 at alater date after Apr 06. The only way you can "transfer" now is to retire from service, and then rejoin later, in which case you would rejoin into AFPS 05. That doesn't mean you would suddenly achieve all the benefits as though you had transfered whilst in continuous service.
There was a condition, which is still active, for RAF personnel selected for redundancy under the current draw down, to leave by Apr 08, that if they had previously transfered to AFPS 05 but could now show that their redundacy terms would have been more advantageous had they remained within AFPS 75, then they could elect to revert to AFPS 75 to exit the Service. I am not aware of any other such arrangement, although it is possible that there are others.
Legally, I don't think PAS/PES(A) membership is a "Term of Service", any more than entitlement to various pay rates and types of allowances could be seen as such. "Terms of Service" are now laid down by Statutory Instruments, and are generally limited to the types of engagements available, the relevant qualifying start and end dates, rights to end service under various circumstances, transfer to the Reserve etc.
Regards
Ginseng
There was a condition, which is still active, for RAF personnel selected for redundancy under the current draw down, to leave by Apr 08, that if they had previously transfered to AFPS 05 but could now show that their redundacy terms would have been more advantageous had they remained within AFPS 75, then they could elect to revert to AFPS 75 to exit the Service. I am not aware of any other such arrangement, although it is possible that there are others.
Legally, I don't think PAS/PES(A) membership is a "Term of Service", any more than entitlement to various pay rates and types of allowances could be seen as such. "Terms of Service" are now laid down by Statutory Instruments, and are generally limited to the types of engagements available, the relevant qualifying start and end dates, rights to end service under various circumstances, transfer to the Reserve etc.
Regards
Ginseng