AAC Flying Pay change
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How times have changed. I remember when SNCO/Officer flying pay was all brought into line in the 80s. At one point someone had to make a decision on whether crewman time counted towards your wings starting date for pilot pay. It did. Whoever made that interpretation of the rules certainly did me a favour as well as many others. It is a shame the same positive interpretation of the rules was not used this time. On completion of Aircrewmans course, awarded observer wing, flying pay started. Each 4 years after that a rise in flying pay. What could be more simple. The airforce and navy are still the same. Only the army insists on completing other courses to start flying pay.
Flying pay should start when you are awarded your wings. It is not only retention pay, it is additional pay for an additional skill set and a recognition of the extra element of danger that flying has.
Army Flying pay is not started until you complete a conversion after wings. Barking.The quickest way to get flying in the AAC now is to fail your lynx or AH conversion and get put onto a Gaz conversion.
I am lucky, i no longer get flying pay as I am on PES. If this decision had cost me a single pound ... oh how i would have congratulated the system on another fine piece of man management.
This change in flying pay has saved money. At what cost? Some aircrew on the list will have to wait an extra 4 years to get to the next rate. Do the AAC have such a glut of aircrew that they can afford to be so blatant about this 'anti retention' measure. No retention bonuses, just the opposite.
No one wins after this change. MOD save a bit of money but the long term result will be more good guys leaving. Net loss for the MOD. Simple to change. Flying pay starts after wings and increases every 4 years after that.
Flying pay should start when you are awarded your wings. It is not only retention pay, it is additional pay for an additional skill set and a recognition of the extra element of danger that flying has.
Army Flying pay is not started until you complete a conversion after wings. Barking.The quickest way to get flying in the AAC now is to fail your lynx or AH conversion and get put onto a Gaz conversion.
I am lucky, i no longer get flying pay as I am on PES. If this decision had cost me a single pound ... oh how i would have congratulated the system on another fine piece of man management.
This change in flying pay has saved money. At what cost? Some aircrew on the list will have to wait an extra 4 years to get to the next rate. Do the AAC have such a glut of aircrew that they can afford to be so blatant about this 'anti retention' measure. No retention bonuses, just the opposite.
No one wins after this change. MOD save a bit of money but the long term result will be more good guys leaving. Net loss for the MOD. Simple to change. Flying pay starts after wings and increases every 4 years after that.
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Jeep,
Always nice tangling with you on this media. I must take issue with you however in your last post. Flying pay did not start on award of wings, it started on taking up a flying appointment which attracted flying pay, in the Field Army, post award of wings.
So Low Ball got his wings on the 15th Jan 1970 (were you at School by then?) and all his course mates disappeared off to UK, BAOR, Middle East and Far East to fly the powerful Sioux. Ah the days of postings anywhere in the world with not a care in the world no house no labrador no worries! LB was to be a Scout Pilot (Queeen of the sky). Anyway after the Scout Course I took up an appointment in BAOR and my flying pay started from the date on the posting order. All my contemporaries had had the benefit of flying pay for some 6 months.
Never got over it
Low Ball
Always nice tangling with you on this media. I must take issue with you however in your last post. Flying pay did not start on award of wings, it started on taking up a flying appointment which attracted flying pay, in the Field Army, post award of wings.
So Low Ball got his wings on the 15th Jan 1970 (were you at School by then?) and all his course mates disappeared off to UK, BAOR, Middle East and Far East to fly the powerful Sioux. Ah the days of postings anywhere in the world with not a care in the world no house no labrador no worries! LB was to be a Scout Pilot (Queeen of the sky). Anyway after the Scout Course I took up an appointment in BAOR and my flying pay started from the date on the posting order. All my contemporaries had had the benefit of flying pay for some 6 months.
Never got over it
Low Ball
Jeep / LB, different again as my Flying pay started (as a crewman, Royal Marine) the day I walked through the gates at MW to start the course. Every 3 yrs after that another increase, consequently myself and many others starting Pilots courses later on were already on 2nd tour, your increases continued so that by the time I did the Aircraft Commanders course I went straight onto 2rd tour A/C pay.
Another huge bungle that can only send more people off to civvy street.
Another huge bungle that can only send more people off to civvy street.
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Low Ball
We must have been at MW at the same time. Got my wings Oct 69 (Course 208 - the last Hiller course) and went on to fly my namesake. I seem to remember getting student flying pay during the course but can't find any documentation to support the memory.
We must have been at MW at the same time. Got my wings Oct 69 (Course 208 - the last Hiller course) and went on to fly my namesake. I seem to remember getting student flying pay during the course but can't find any documentation to support the memory.
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Army Flying pay is not started until you complete a conversion after wings. Barking.The quickest way to get flying in the AAC now is to fail your lynx or AH conversion and get put onto a Gaz conversion.
Current RAF trainee pilots get initial rate FP on completion of a recognised OCU, or on recategorisation to B1 if they're first-tourist instructors. So you're not the only ones who get it on conversion! Bearing in mine the lengths of holds that you can still find if you're unlucky, you're looking at 6 months for EFT, 10 months for BFJT, 6-8 months AFT, 4-6 months TW, 6 months OCU...
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Well history and reunions in the making. CM and Python 21 you are both right (call it an age problem) There was a student rate of flying pay not much IIRC around the £1 mark. So I remained on student rates until I appeared at Bunde as a trained Scout pilot.
BTW Python we were on the same course of the two of us that wore tarton on 210 I was the young handsome one
LB
BTW Python we were on the same course of the two of us that wore tarton on 210 I was the young handsome one
LB
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P21 and LB
If you two were Jocks, I think I may have a vague memory (every memory is vague these days) of one of you. Wish I could work out how to post a photograph on this blasted thing, but then I was only a Sioux pilot!
If you two were Jocks, I think I may have a vague memory (every memory is vague these days) of one of you. Wish I could work out how to post a photograph on this blasted thing, but then I was only a Sioux pilot!
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P21 and CM
P21 was not a Jock I now know who he is and he was a Royal. There were still 2 Jocks on 210, both amazingly called Mike, I was the Lt the other was a Capt.
Still no clues as to your ID CM?
LB
P21 was not a Jock I now know who he is and he was a Royal. There were still 2 Jocks on 210, both amazingly called Mike, I was the Lt the other was a Capt.
Still no clues as to your ID CM?
LB
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LB
Still no clues as to your ID CM?
I'll try to remember who I am. Think I was an Anglian. Captain at the time. Was Richard Orde, a Jock, on 210? Inshaw? Clarke?
Come to think of it, Orde was earlier, 207 I think.
Still no clues as to your ID CM?
I'll try to remember who I am. Think I was an Anglian. Captain at the time. Was Richard Orde, a Jock, on 210? Inshaw? Clarke?
Come to think of it, Orde was earlier, 207 I think.
Last edited by Clockwork Mouse; 15th Mar 2007 at 11:29. Reason: Return of vague memory
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DAAVN's View on the new rules
Had a visit from DAAVN top brass yesterday to the Regiment. We got a chance to view our concerns on various things including this pay change.
The short of it is from above this pay change is here to stay and pilots will have to 'mark time' (civvie speak -pay cut) on their pay. He also said that the Lynx fleet is undermanned (at last the penny drops but no retention bonus). He did say that P2 pay may also go.
I told him that I have a copy of the old rules from DAAVN stating effectively the opposite of what he was saying but it was brushed over.
I'm not 'marking time' for anybody. If the AAC wants to pay me only 2 flying tours, then thats all they will get! RAF here I come!
Cheers.
The short of it is from above this pay change is here to stay and pilots will have to 'mark time' (civvie speak -pay cut) on their pay. He also said that the Lynx fleet is undermanned (at last the penny drops but no retention bonus). He did say that P2 pay may also go.
I told him that I have a copy of the old rules from DAAVN stating effectively the opposite of what he was saying but it was brushed over.
I'm not 'marking time' for anybody. If the AAC wants to pay me only 2 flying tours, then thats all they will get! RAF here I come!
Cheers.
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A quick word in CGS's ear
Me again. I was tasked to fly CGS from A to B. Guess what my top subject was? Yep, P1 pay. CGS is a pilot himself and was on side about our pay claims. He said he would speak to DAAVN about it very soon.
Being a crusty pilot NCO has some privilages after all!
Ta Ta for now.
Being a crusty pilot NCO has some privilages after all!
Ta Ta for now.
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I have been itching to get my bit in but only just remebered password and as a person that now has to mark time for another 4 1/2 years to go onto enhanced I feel a few words need to be said.
Correct me if I am wrong but a flying tour is a flying tour and it is deemed to be 4 years as it is across the services. Therefore:
0-4 years lower rate
4-8 years middle rate
8-12 years higher rate
12+ enhanced
I was a Cpl pilot and had the long wait for Ac Comd and got it after 4 1/2 years but was already on middle rate as being a pilot and completed 9 yrs reckonable got it after 3 years as the rules clearly defined. i then went onto Ac Comd middle rate and subsequently higher rate at the 8 yr point.
During this time there was confusion for everyone in this bracket and clearly remebered and still have possession of a letter from DAAvn stating that to avoid confusion flying tours were 4, 8, 12 respectively and we all agreed.
To state the rules now and having read the recent letter from DAAvn there is a complete shift and if you read the rules then all these years since 1964 (the pay warrant) there was no justification for getting Ac Comd as you would have reverted to P1 initial. Clearly a load of B----x as usual. Surely the tours of 4, 8 and 12 are stead fast and the incentive to command and qualify was rewarded with the extra pay for the extra responsibility. Call me old fashioned but this is the norm in civ div for any pilot receiving command. More responsibility-more pay.
It is also worth noting on the AFPRB 07 that it clearly states that to go onto enhanced you must have been in receipt of higher rate for the previous 4 years. Who is right the AFPRB or the clown who introduced this JPA fiasco.
Also with regards to P1 and P2 - years ago and more so today I used to log P1 in the relevant column but still got P2 pay so surely somewhere along the line i must be due back pay for all my P1 time. Clearly not cause you would not be able to work it out but its worth a legal wrangle if nothing else.
Many more comments to come now I have my password but must dash for now but has anyone got the number of that legal beagle that was used in the FRI scandal a couple of years ago. Bet he could do with a few more clients to cater for.
Correct me if I am wrong but a flying tour is a flying tour and it is deemed to be 4 years as it is across the services. Therefore:
0-4 years lower rate
4-8 years middle rate
8-12 years higher rate
12+ enhanced
I was a Cpl pilot and had the long wait for Ac Comd and got it after 4 1/2 years but was already on middle rate as being a pilot and completed 9 yrs reckonable got it after 3 years as the rules clearly defined. i then went onto Ac Comd middle rate and subsequently higher rate at the 8 yr point.
During this time there was confusion for everyone in this bracket and clearly remebered and still have possession of a letter from DAAvn stating that to avoid confusion flying tours were 4, 8, 12 respectively and we all agreed.
To state the rules now and having read the recent letter from DAAvn there is a complete shift and if you read the rules then all these years since 1964 (the pay warrant) there was no justification for getting Ac Comd as you would have reverted to P1 initial. Clearly a load of B----x as usual. Surely the tours of 4, 8 and 12 are stead fast and the incentive to command and qualify was rewarded with the extra pay for the extra responsibility. Call me old fashioned but this is the norm in civ div for any pilot receiving command. More responsibility-more pay.
It is also worth noting on the AFPRB 07 that it clearly states that to go onto enhanced you must have been in receipt of higher rate for the previous 4 years. Who is right the AFPRB or the clown who introduced this JPA fiasco.
Also with regards to P1 and P2 - years ago and more so today I used to log P1 in the relevant column but still got P2 pay so surely somewhere along the line i must be due back pay for all my P1 time. Clearly not cause you would not be able to work it out but its worth a legal wrangle if nothing else.
Many more comments to come now I have my password but must dash for now but has anyone got the number of that legal beagle that was used in the FRI scandal a couple of years ago. Bet he could do with a few more clients to cater for.
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We need more PPruners!
I'm surprised at the limited mumber of replies concerning this pay **** up. Come on guys please take 2 minutes of your time and log in, lets here your views!
Cheers.
Cheers.
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Hello,
Sorry for not speaking out before now, but I have been busy trying to find out if this was really going to happen or not.
Unfortunately it is.
We have been told that we are lucky and should be happy because we do not have to pay back all the money that has (allegedly) been incorrectly paid.
A pilot coming off the course now will be paid £44000 less over a twelve year tour.
This change of interpretation along with removal of FRI is appalling and will not do the Corps any favours.
I think there has not been many posts for a few reasons:
1. not everyone knows about it yet.
2. some people just dont believe it will happen (it is, so suck it up)
3. Those who have just gone up a rate and are going to get paid £30000+ more than a mate (who did their check ride a week later), might be a little embarassed and a bit worried in case he loses his own higher rate.
4. People are in shock.
5. They are too busy looking on LASORS, CAA or in the RAF careers office.
This decision saddens me as I have always been proud of my Army pilot status but now dont care what colour my uniform is as long as I am treated well.
I dont know if complaining will change anything.
The only thing that will change is Senior Army pilots will be looking elsewhere.
Adios Amigos
Sorry for not speaking out before now, but I have been busy trying to find out if this was really going to happen or not.
Unfortunately it is.
We have been told that we are lucky and should be happy because we do not have to pay back all the money that has (allegedly) been incorrectly paid.
A pilot coming off the course now will be paid £44000 less over a twelve year tour.
This change of interpretation along with removal of FRI is appalling and will not do the Corps any favours.
I think there has not been many posts for a few reasons:
1. not everyone knows about it yet.
2. some people just dont believe it will happen (it is, so suck it up)
3. Those who have just gone up a rate and are going to get paid £30000+ more than a mate (who did their check ride a week later), might be a little embarassed and a bit worried in case he loses his own higher rate.
4. People are in shock.
5. They are too busy looking on LASORS, CAA or in the RAF careers office.
This decision saddens me as I have always been proud of my Army pilot status but now dont care what colour my uniform is as long as I am treated well.
I dont know if complaining will change anything.
The only thing that will change is Senior Army pilots will be looking elsewhere.
Adios Amigos