Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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I think we are all agreed, then
If the wing falls off - you are poorly placed!!
If you are hit by a missile (guided or unguided) you could lose a wing. Please note however, that because they go so fast, most MANPADSs are likely to go straight through the engine/wing and the explosion is limited).
If you get an explosion caused by stray 'wiggly-amps' or unguided missile/bullets/shrapnel in the fuel tanks, you might also lose a wing.
If you fit a modern and effective DAS you are less likely to be hit the guided missile.
But if you fit foam, the wing is less likely to be blown off by a fuel explosion. however caused.
DAS can be very expensive and will probably be limited to reduced number of frames.
Foam is relatively cheap and could be fitted to all aircraft!
Because of costings/budgets/blah, our Gov't/MOD is doing little to placate most people's fears that MOST RAF ac are poorly protected - in all cases.
We should continue to keep up the pressure - Nige and Chappie - bravo!
Have I missed something?
ps
Hope the emails have stopped. Anyone desparate to contact me - please PM.
Where R we - 4000? - not bad! But the record is still 20,000!!!
I HAVE YET TO MEET A HERC CREW-MEMBER WHO WOULD REFUSE THE FITMENT OF ESF!!!!!!
If the wing falls off - you are poorly placed!!
If you are hit by a missile (guided or unguided) you could lose a wing. Please note however, that because they go so fast, most MANPADSs are likely to go straight through the engine/wing and the explosion is limited).
If you get an explosion caused by stray 'wiggly-amps' or unguided missile/bullets/shrapnel in the fuel tanks, you might also lose a wing.
If you fit a modern and effective DAS you are less likely to be hit the guided missile.
But if you fit foam, the wing is less likely to be blown off by a fuel explosion. however caused.
DAS can be very expensive and will probably be limited to reduced number of frames.
Foam is relatively cheap and could be fitted to all aircraft!
Because of costings/budgets/blah, our Gov't/MOD is doing little to placate most people's fears that MOST RAF ac are poorly protected - in all cases.
We should continue to keep up the pressure - Nige and Chappie - bravo!
Have I missed something?
ps
Hope the emails have stopped. Anyone desparate to contact me - please PM.
Where R we - 4000? - not bad! But the record is still 20,000!!!
I HAVE YET TO MEET A HERC CREW-MEMBER WHO WOULD REFUSE THE FITMENT OF ESF!!!!!!
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LCP please do not fret, flipster did not send out 20,000 emails. his computer did that all by itself. to date the petition has 2616 signatures of which i am very grateful. flight magasine have chosen not to get in contact about the petition, whichis a disappointment but i will not give up.
the reason that i will not give up is this.....taday is a bad day. today i miss my brother and it hurts so much it's like you wish the pain was a cancer as you could cut that cancer away then live your life. the pain left by grief stays and rots and hurts more each time it jumps up and reminds you who's the boss. i have watched the sterling work that the navy has been doing with evacuating the british. sometimes, just sometimes i think i see him, in his combats, then i realise how stupid i am but by that point i'm crying. i look on in awe at what you guys do and i want to say how proud i am of the british armed forces. it is not enough that we are eighteen months on from the crash and seven months on from the BoI. where are we? we've finally got the fitting underway. we don't have a written number.....still. we don't have a financial comittment. that is wrong and will not be accepted.the way i feel today is the reason why we still have to push. no one not even my worse enmey should go through this. if i was to say the stress of all this has caught up with me and now i've shingles i would feel defeated and though they had won. that won't happen. i've lost already....bob.
just for the record those of us fighting the good fight are not blinkered, but incredibly focussed and passionate about our cause. we have to be. if we weren't there would be no foam fitting ongoing. remember this is not a luxury...this is a standard we are fighting for. i did not mention XXXV179 but mr reid mentioned DAS which he really didn't want to do as his governemnt is unable to stump up the cash for that either! why discuss why he was wondering what the views were about money being to spent it was an empty gesture guys. he is not worth the space.
the reason that i will not give up is this.....taday is a bad day. today i miss my brother and it hurts so much it's like you wish the pain was a cancer as you could cut that cancer away then live your life. the pain left by grief stays and rots and hurts more each time it jumps up and reminds you who's the boss. i have watched the sterling work that the navy has been doing with evacuating the british. sometimes, just sometimes i think i see him, in his combats, then i realise how stupid i am but by that point i'm crying. i look on in awe at what you guys do and i want to say how proud i am of the british armed forces. it is not enough that we are eighteen months on from the crash and seven months on from the BoI. where are we? we've finally got the fitting underway. we don't have a written number.....still. we don't have a financial comittment. that is wrong and will not be accepted.the way i feel today is the reason why we still have to push. no one not even my worse enmey should go through this. if i was to say the stress of all this has caught up with me and now i've shingles i would feel defeated and though they had won. that won't happen. i've lost already....bob.
just for the record those of us fighting the good fight are not blinkered, but incredibly focussed and passionate about our cause. we have to be. if we weren't there would be no foam fitting ongoing. remember this is not a luxury...this is a standard we are fighting for. i did not mention XXXV179 but mr reid mentioned DAS which he really didn't want to do as his governemnt is unable to stump up the cash for that either! why discuss why he was wondering what the views were about money being to spent it was an empty gesture guys. he is not worth the space.
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To Foam or not
I have read all the posts on this forum, including the ones which are negative about foam.
However this discusion as I understand it, is not really about whether foam should be fitted, but when it will be fitted.
I am sure that I would speak for the majority of flight crew, who would like to see foam fitted.
From an accounting point of view alone, the cost of fitting foam is very small, and is even smaller when fitted at aircraft build time.
I think from a aircrew/passenger point of view, one of the most serious problems you can encounter, both on the ground and air, IS FIRE.
If the logic of not fitting foam is true, because it cannot cover every situation, we might as well throw the fire detection and fighting equipment off the schedule, as they are seldom used, and also too are not always affective.
Those who travel in military aircraft at least, need to have the cards stacked in their favour. Yes it can be true that nothing is fully affective, but even a small percentage of protection, particularly under the current situation, and is certainly much better than nothing.
The latest loss shows clearly that this airplane may have been saved, or at least those in it, would have had a better chance in getting out OK. If there been more people on board, their chances of survival could have been reduced.
Unfortunately, the people who do not agree with foam, their comments can be often taken by those who do not want to do this task, as a reason not to proceed.
Foam has proven in the past to work, it may not always be the answer, but the facts are that it does increase the chance of surviving.
Self sealing tanks, which I understand were developed by the British company, Fireproof tanks in WW2, saved countless people, when perhaps at low level the risks were not as high today.
Foam is a cheap affective start to a problem, for which there is no total solution.
LET NOT THESE MEN TO HAVE DIED IN VAIN.
Regards
Col Tigwell
However this discusion as I understand it, is not really about whether foam should be fitted, but when it will be fitted.
I am sure that I would speak for the majority of flight crew, who would like to see foam fitted.
From an accounting point of view alone, the cost of fitting foam is very small, and is even smaller when fitted at aircraft build time.
I think from a aircrew/passenger point of view, one of the most serious problems you can encounter, both on the ground and air, IS FIRE.
If the logic of not fitting foam is true, because it cannot cover every situation, we might as well throw the fire detection and fighting equipment off the schedule, as they are seldom used, and also too are not always affective.
Those who travel in military aircraft at least, need to have the cards stacked in their favour. Yes it can be true that nothing is fully affective, but even a small percentage of protection, particularly under the current situation, and is certainly much better than nothing.
The latest loss shows clearly that this airplane may have been saved, or at least those in it, would have had a better chance in getting out OK. If there been more people on board, their chances of survival could have been reduced.
Unfortunately, the people who do not agree with foam, their comments can be often taken by those who do not want to do this task, as a reason not to proceed.
Foam has proven in the past to work, it may not always be the answer, but the facts are that it does increase the chance of surviving.
Self sealing tanks, which I understand were developed by the British company, Fireproof tanks in WW2, saved countless people, when perhaps at low level the risks were not as high today.
Foam is a cheap affective start to a problem, for which there is no total solution.
LET NOT THESE MEN TO HAVE DIED IN VAIN.
Regards
Col Tigwell
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Thanks Col. I do not know a Herc crew member who does not want to see foam fitted. Losing 23 feet of wing is clearly the result of not having it fitted. If it was easy to have foam fitted it would have been done 25 years ago when Herc crews first requested it. This is a hard slog, the first RAF Herc is still to be fitted and yet chiefs of staff have knowingly sent Herc crews into another theatre of war. If the foam campaigners had not stepped forward who knows where we would be now.
Remember, USAF Hercs survived much worse attacks than the one that downed XV179. All USAF Hercs have foam. That is a fact worth taking on board, literally.
Remember, USAF Hercs survived much worse attacks than the one that downed XV179. All USAF Hercs have foam. That is a fact worth taking on board, literally.
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are these the men who are your leaders?
thankyou 5d2d. i am struggling to understand how this is going to be possible when the great men who are supposed to be your leaders ae unable to even acknowledge that i have written to them. this is either as a campaigner looking for answers or as i am...a grieving sister of one of their airmen. in letters recieved the offer is made that the channels of communication are opened if any concerns arise. what it doesn't say is that there is no way that you will recieve a reply. i ask this of you your airships.....why? what is it that makes it so hard to write to me? the less contact there is the more i get concerned that there is something to hide. so think on. surely you should be leading by example...you expect your men to cope in the face of adversity yet you cannot even find it within you to write to me. not the example the upper ranks would want to make....surely?
i saw a herc flying from marshalls about half hour ago. it was a beautiful sight and sound to see. it's a bittersweet view because sometimes just sometimes i think of being inside the herc where the boys were, what they'd be doing, how things should be and for those few minutes they are alive....like they should be , if there had been foam. it's like i can see them, but all to quickly reality reminds me that they have gone. yet despite the pain that can cause any one individual and the fact that you can do something about it, even read this thread from afar, yet never able to step up to the mark and justify why you won't take the action needed to ensure that the lives of your aircrew are protected you just hide. how do you expect your soliders to be the men you want them to be when you won't show the way? you cannot expect them to give and you take with nothing in return. that is not your right. in fact it sickens me.
despite the pain that i'min right now and how amazingly crappy i feel i will write to you all again and if i have to i will write every week until you decide that you can be bothered to write back.....remember, i'm going nowhere. the more you try and ignore the more i think you have to hide. I/WE ARE NOT FIGHTING FOR A LUXURY, BUT A STANDARD. IT IS ESSENTIAL IT IS WANTED AND NEEDED , A LEGACY TO 10 FINE MEN...david stead,paul pardoel, bob o'connor, richie brown, paddy marshall, mark gibson. stephen jones, david williams, andrew smith, gary nicholson....AND THE HEROES STILL FLYING ON A DAILY BASIS WITHOUT THE PROTECTION THAT THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO.
i saw a herc flying from marshalls about half hour ago. it was a beautiful sight and sound to see. it's a bittersweet view because sometimes just sometimes i think of being inside the herc where the boys were, what they'd be doing, how things should be and for those few minutes they are alive....like they should be , if there had been foam. it's like i can see them, but all to quickly reality reminds me that they have gone. yet despite the pain that can cause any one individual and the fact that you can do something about it, even read this thread from afar, yet never able to step up to the mark and justify why you won't take the action needed to ensure that the lives of your aircrew are protected you just hide. how do you expect your soliders to be the men you want them to be when you won't show the way? you cannot expect them to give and you take with nothing in return. that is not your right. in fact it sickens me.
despite the pain that i'min right now and how amazingly crappy i feel i will write to you all again and if i have to i will write every week until you decide that you can be bothered to write back.....remember, i'm going nowhere. the more you try and ignore the more i think you have to hide. I/WE ARE NOT FIGHTING FOR A LUXURY, BUT A STANDARD. IT IS ESSENTIAL IT IS WANTED AND NEEDED , A LEGACY TO 10 FINE MEN...david stead,paul pardoel, bob o'connor, richie brown, paddy marshall, mark gibson. stephen jones, david williams, andrew smith, gary nicholson....AND THE HEROES STILL FLYING ON A DAILY BASIS WITHOUT THE PROTECTION THAT THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO.
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Chappie,
If you are not getting any answers to your questions write to the Defence Committee and they will ask the questions for you. RAF officers do not like the extra work load but if they are important questions and the chiefs do not reply then do what you must.
If you are not getting any answers to your questions write to the Defence Committee and they will ask the questions for you. RAF officers do not like the extra work load but if they are important questions and the chiefs do not reply then do what you must.
In the news recently....
I thought people would be interested in the level of investment in Duty of Care by our partners, and the apparent unit cost (approx £170k each) of a CMWS. To put this cost in context, many of our aircraft carry a V/UHF radio which, in 1980s, cost £110k each. The figure quoted for C130 DAS seems very high.
BAE SYSTEMS TO PROTECT ARMY AIRCRAFT WITH ADVANCED SYSTEM
Type of document: News
Source: BAE systems
UK - NORTH AMERICA - The U.S. Army has awarded BAE Systems a sole-source award for its Common Missile Warning System (CMWS) to protect Army fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft from heat-seeking missiles.
BAE Systems in Nashua, N.H., received a five-year indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity (IDIQ) award with a maximum ceiling of $1.4 billion on May 19. The Army ordered 80 CMWS systems for $23.2 million under the IDIQ. An IDIQ affords the Army the flexibility to order at various times any number of systems up to the maximum quantity specified in the contract.
CMWS was deployed to support the global war on terrorism ahead of schedule and is currently flying on multiple Army and allied helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft. CMWS is credited with saving multiple aircraft and crews from man-portable air defense missiles.
BAE Systems has been delivering ATIRCM/CMWS systems to the Army under a previous IDIQ awarded in September 2004. The company was awarded a low-rate initial production contract in 2002 for up to 484 LRIP systems.
CMWS, BAE Systems' ATIRCM system, and the advanced infrared countermeasures munitions flares comprise the primary components of the Army's suite of integrated infrared countermeasures.
I thought people would be interested in the level of investment in Duty of Care by our partners, and the apparent unit cost (approx £170k each) of a CMWS. To put this cost in context, many of our aircraft carry a V/UHF radio which, in 1980s, cost £110k each. The figure quoted for C130 DAS seems very high.
BAE SYSTEMS TO PROTECT ARMY AIRCRAFT WITH ADVANCED SYSTEM
Type of document: News
Source: BAE systems
UK - NORTH AMERICA - The U.S. Army has awarded BAE Systems a sole-source award for its Common Missile Warning System (CMWS) to protect Army fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft from heat-seeking missiles.
BAE Systems in Nashua, N.H., received a five-year indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity (IDIQ) award with a maximum ceiling of $1.4 billion on May 19. The Army ordered 80 CMWS systems for $23.2 million under the IDIQ. An IDIQ affords the Army the flexibility to order at various times any number of systems up to the maximum quantity specified in the contract.
CMWS was deployed to support the global war on terrorism ahead of schedule and is currently flying on multiple Army and allied helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft. CMWS is credited with saving multiple aircraft and crews from man-portable air defense missiles.
BAE Systems has been delivering ATIRCM/CMWS systems to the Army under a previous IDIQ awarded in September 2004. The company was awarded a low-rate initial production contract in 2002 for up to 484 LRIP systems.
CMWS, BAE Systems' ATIRCM system, and the advanced infrared countermeasures munitions flares comprise the primary components of the Army's suite of integrated infrared countermeasures.
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Tuc, I have no reason to doubt the figures.
Are you aware of the requirement to pay for UORs from next years defence budget?
Are you aware of the requirement to pay for UORs from next years defence budget?
Last edited by nigegilb; 21st Jul 2006 at 07:03.
Nigel
The very nature of UORs means they should not normally be in the EP. Remember, EP07 (April 07 - March 08) assumptions were known some months ago. If they are, then the capability shortfall for a very precise requirement/theatre has been identified well in advance (!). That is, they do not meet the UOR criteria. What you describe may be a devious way of cutting the budget. Perhaps someone has at last forced IPTs to stop wasting money, gathered together the savings, and placed it in a UOR bucket (which, if not committed, would effectively cut the budget). Or perhaps forced DEC to do their job properly and, for example, check that we don't already have the kit they want under a UOR. (It happens, especially when it has been previously procured under UOR; like DAS).
The real problem I suppose is that the frequency of short-notice commitments is increasing, so EVERYTHING is becoming urgent. A result of the Governments scatter-gun approach to defence in general, and their effective shredding of our published military doctrine.
The very nature of UORs means they should not normally be in the EP. Remember, EP07 (April 07 - March 08) assumptions were known some months ago. If they are, then the capability shortfall for a very precise requirement/theatre has been identified well in advance (!). That is, they do not meet the UOR criteria. What you describe may be a devious way of cutting the budget. Perhaps someone has at last forced IPTs to stop wasting money, gathered together the savings, and placed it in a UOR bucket (which, if not committed, would effectively cut the budget). Or perhaps forced DEC to do their job properly and, for example, check that we don't already have the kit they want under a UOR. (It happens, especially when it has been previously procured under UOR; like DAS).
The real problem I suppose is that the frequency of short-notice commitments is increasing, so EVERYTHING is becoming urgent. A result of the Governments scatter-gun approach to defence in general, and their effective shredding of our published military doctrine.
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Yes, but as I understand it, you can procure something under a UOR but you do not get lifetime support for said item. Officially the item should be removed following the Op under which UOR was raised. This causes problems further down the chain as normally the item is required long-term but how do they fund it.
I am not disagreeing things shouldn't be procured under a UOR, but UORs are not the panacea. The money for the long-term support has to come from somewhere and that is where the issue is. Big boys get paid lots of money to make big decisions, which is precisely what they are not doing at the moment.
I am not disagreeing things shouldn't be procured under a UOR, but UORs are not the panacea. The money for the long-term support has to come from somewhere and that is where the issue is. Big boys get paid lots of money to make big decisions, which is precisely what they are not doing at the moment.
WRW
Yes, you are correct. Funding for a UOR usually runs out after one year. If it is to be retained after that, it must be brought into the EP. (Is this what you meant Nigel?). In practice, that means something else has got to give, as pressure is exerted to support it from existing funds. (This amounts to abrogation by DEC). This is further exacerbated if the kit is fitted to a platform. A UOR will typically be embodied under an SEM. While the rules mandate the SEM is verified for safety/airworthiness by the relevant platform and equipment design authorities, the rule is largely ignored; partly on cost grounds and partly because so few understand the implications. When they are assessed by the DA, you often find they are declared "safe, but they don't work"; or vice-versa. ISD pressure means they are fitted anyway. They are seldom brought under configuration control or included in drawings or aircraft technical pubs. In short, the airworthiness chain is broken. Fine you may say, until something goes wrong.
Yes, you are correct. Funding for a UOR usually runs out after one year. If it is to be retained after that, it must be brought into the EP. (Is this what you meant Nigel?). In practice, that means something else has got to give, as pressure is exerted to support it from existing funds. (This amounts to abrogation by DEC). This is further exacerbated if the kit is fitted to a platform. A UOR will typically be embodied under an SEM. While the rules mandate the SEM is verified for safety/airworthiness by the relevant platform and equipment design authorities, the rule is largely ignored; partly on cost grounds and partly because so few understand the implications. When they are assessed by the DA, you often find they are declared "safe, but they don't work"; or vice-versa. ISD pressure means they are fitted anyway. They are seldom brought under configuration control or included in drawings or aircraft technical pubs. In short, the airworthiness chain is broken. Fine you may say, until something goes wrong.
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Tuc, I was under the impression that UORs were paid for as a one off from the Treasury, I read a few days ago that the cost of the UORs will come from the next defence budget which means something will have to give. The Treasury is playing hard ball. The concept of servicemen's earnings being paid tax free on operations has been agreed by the Treasury, but the money has to come from the defence budget! So much for Blair's promise that the forces should get anything they ask for. I am not holding my breath on an imminent Herc DAS reinstatement. The program for J foam is a closely guarded secret. No wonder.
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do you know what....we can talk around and around a subject and summise the outcome but that is not going to change anything. it would appear that the funds if there is going to be any available is going to be given with a long list of conditions and the ministers will be laughing thinking that this campaign will be caught by the short and curlies.....well, i don't have short and curlies and i know that things are not as they should be and something is being hidden. it should/does not need to be this hard, so why do you not all ask yourself why this is the case. please continue to write, continue to publicse this travesty that airmen are doing with out. they should not have to suffer defence cuts just to have their wages paid. we are the ones who can do something about this.
there is alot of hercules activity going on from marshalls, even i am managing to see hercs regularly from my house. this may be a sign that there will be an announcement, it may mean diddly. nonetheless, the sight of those beautiful planes is spurring me on not to sit back, but to continue to pester.
your airships, ministers and anyone else who is part of the gang who is clearly unable to write a proper letter. i say this, and this is because i am mad now. you have another week. if the letters are not winging their way to me in reply to the ones i sent, then i will assume i am correct in my theory you are hiding something. do not think that you can wipe your hands of aircrew and their families just because they died. the BoI process is a farce. we are eighteen months on from the crash and i will not wait any longer. if i have to, and i am loathe to do this, as i feel i am being disrespectful to your rank and the force i will go public at your apparent inability to stand by your words and most importantly your fine outstanding aircrew...your assets. this is not a rant. this is a true warning. i want action. you are making the death of those men into a joke. you do not intend to learn from their deaths. it does not take eighteen months to sort this out.
sorry for lack of grammar, i will rectify later but i have to go and pick up my daughter and i am just to mad right now.
there is alot of hercules activity going on from marshalls, even i am managing to see hercs regularly from my house. this may be a sign that there will be an announcement, it may mean diddly. nonetheless, the sight of those beautiful planes is spurring me on not to sit back, but to continue to pester.
your airships, ministers and anyone else who is part of the gang who is clearly unable to write a proper letter. i say this, and this is because i am mad now. you have another week. if the letters are not winging their way to me in reply to the ones i sent, then i will assume i am correct in my theory you are hiding something. do not think that you can wipe your hands of aircrew and their families just because they died. the BoI process is a farce. we are eighteen months on from the crash and i will not wait any longer. if i have to, and i am loathe to do this, as i feel i am being disrespectful to your rank and the force i will go public at your apparent inability to stand by your words and most importantly your fine outstanding aircrew...your assets. this is not a rant. this is a true warning. i want action. you are making the death of those men into a joke. you do not intend to learn from their deaths. it does not take eighteen months to sort this out.
sorry for lack of grammar, i will rectify later but i have to go and pick up my daughter and i am just to mad right now.
chappie, if the feeble Airships had even 1% of your drive and tenacity, the RAF would be a far better place!
I saw that waste of DNA, Des 'Strangely' Brownie on TV today. What a total tangowhiskyalfatango. Clearly a Noo Labor stooge with no real interest in the UK's overstretched, undermanned and underfunded Armed Forces. At least Doc Reid had some charisma; perhaps that's why that useless little $hit Bliar moved him?
Keep up the pressure, chappie - you've got a huge number of supporters who really admire and support your efforts to get things moving positively forward!
I saw that waste of DNA, Des 'Strangely' Brownie on TV today. What a total tangowhiskyalfatango. Clearly a Noo Labor stooge with no real interest in the UK's overstretched, undermanned and underfunded Armed Forces. At least Doc Reid had some charisma; perhaps that's why that useless little $hit Bliar moved him?
Keep up the pressure, chappie - you've got a huge number of supporters who really admire and support your efforts to get things moving positively forward!
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countdown continues!
as the title suggests that countdown continues...you have a week to get the letters out.
i've retried the flight international editorial to see if they can help. i have contacted airforce monthly to just to see if we can have a last ditch attempt at publicising the petition.
nige, i have tried to send you a PM but you are full. please empty your postbox. i need the address for HCDC, please and names. i have also heard that enquiries are being put forward as to the possible date for the inquest. do peoples want to know when that will be?
so, i'll wait to hear from you all your airships and ministers. i would really appreciate your thoughts on the matter discussed. i know that you are all busy but this issue is a hot potato right now, both politically and within the force.
i've retried the flight international editorial to see if they can help. i have contacted airforce monthly to just to see if we can have a last ditch attempt at publicising the petition.
nige, i have tried to send you a PM but you are full. please empty your postbox. i need the address for HCDC, please and names. i have also heard that enquiries are being put forward as to the possible date for the inquest. do peoples want to know when that will be?
so, i'll wait to hear from you all your airships and ministers. i would really appreciate your thoughts on the matter discussed. i know that you are all busy but this issue is a hot potato right now, both politically and within the force.
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Guys & girls,
I get the feeling this thread is repeating itself too much. Everyone is putting a massive amount of effort into what they believe in. You know what..... Very little is being handed back in return. You want to know why? It is because the general public are not aware of the dyer state the British armed forces are putting up with.
This puts me in a very difficult situation as I'm not one to winge.
I feel it is time to go public and let the tax payer know what we have to put up with. The list is never ending, but the main points can be put forward to the national press.
I suggest an article in the daily Sun will open the eyes of the general public and give a short sharp shock to the penny pincher ministers in power.
On a personal note, I don't mind doing the job I do, but I'm getting sick of borrowing kit off the yanks to do simple ops. I don't need to continue, you all know the situation.
Is this the start of the end? I understand if this sounds like it should be on another, but it does relate to the herc esf system. I'm just back from over there, and everyone is scratching their heads as to where the future is panning out.
PS.
I get the feeling this thread is repeating itself too much. Everyone is putting a massive amount of effort into what they believe in. You know what..... Very little is being handed back in return. You want to know why? It is because the general public are not aware of the dyer state the British armed forces are putting up with.
This puts me in a very difficult situation as I'm not one to winge.
I feel it is time to go public and let the tax payer know what we have to put up with. The list is never ending, but the main points can be put forward to the national press.
I suggest an article in the daily Sun will open the eyes of the general public and give a short sharp shock to the penny pincher ministers in power.
On a personal note, I don't mind doing the job I do, but I'm getting sick of borrowing kit off the yanks to do simple ops. I don't need to continue, you all know the situation.
Is this the start of the end? I understand if this sounds like it should be on another, but it does relate to the herc esf system. I'm just back from over there, and everyone is scratching their heads as to where the future is panning out.
PS.