Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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fuel capacity lost and the need to protect Marshalls' jobs
"Some fuel capacity is lost, I believe that it is 15%, but I could be corrected on that."
Yes, you lose some fuel capacity - 3% (yes, three percent).
Standard Mod/polspeak is in action again concerning the timeline of fitment of ESF to the fleet.
How long are the comfort merchants at MoD and Labour lite going to get away with saying they're doing something about a problem that is quite easy to track. The scoreboard shows aircraft (confirmed) downed by hostile fire-one, aircraft fitted with ESF-nil.
You don't avoid relegation in this game by trying to go for extra time.
ExHerkmate
Yes, you lose some fuel capacity - 3% (yes, three percent).
Standard Mod/polspeak is in action again concerning the timeline of fitment of ESF to the fleet.
How long are the comfort merchants at MoD and Labour lite going to get away with saying they're doing something about a problem that is quite easy to track. The scoreboard shows aircraft (confirmed) downed by hostile fire-one, aircraft fitted with ESF-nil.
You don't avoid relegation in this game by trying to go for extra time.
ExHerkmate
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FUEL CAPACITY
Thank you for setting the record straight, 3% could be lost at the moment depending on the temperature of the fuel.
I recal when we fueled at Cocos Island, we could always put in at least another 2000 lbs because the fuel was stored underground.
At the end of the 3% could be wasted on the ground through take off hold ups.
Appreciate your help
Regards
Col Tigwell
I recal when we fueled at Cocos Island, we could always put in at least another 2000 lbs because the fuel was stored underground.
At the end of the 3% could be wasted on the ground through take off hold ups.
Appreciate your help
Regards
Col Tigwell
Originally Posted by ExHerkmate
"Some fuel capacity is lost, I believe that it is 15%, but I could be corrected on that."
Yes, you lose some fuel capacity - 3% (yes, three percent).
Standard Mod/polspeak is in action again concerning the timeline of fitment of ESF to the fleet.
How long are the comfort merchants at MoD and Labour lite going to get away with saying they're doing something about a problem that is quite easy to track. The scoreboard shows aircraft (confirmed) downed by hostile fire-one, aircraft fitted with ESF-nil.
You don't avoid relegation in this game by trying to go for extra time.
ExHerkmate
Yes, you lose some fuel capacity - 3% (yes, three percent).
Standard Mod/polspeak is in action again concerning the timeline of fitment of ESF to the fleet.
How long are the comfort merchants at MoD and Labour lite going to get away with saying they're doing something about a problem that is quite easy to track. The scoreboard shows aircraft (confirmed) downed by hostile fire-one, aircraft fitted with ESF-nil.
You don't avoid relegation in this game by trying to go for extra time.
ExHerkmate
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I am so concerned about the delays, now September or even October for the first aircraft, that I have written again to the Defence Committee. MoD and Chiefs of Staff are playing fast and loose with peoples lives. It appears that the RAF is no longer able to prioritise safety in the same way that other Air Forces do. Simply not good enough.
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Foam supply
If the problem is cost, by pass Lockheed as a supplier, and go straight to the supplier Crest Foam.
The USAF and RAAF buy their foam direct, bet you it drops the budget down greatly. Perhaps then the RAF could hire Labour to do the task, and could do aircraft much quicker. Bet you have a batch of retired NCO's who would jump at the chance.
The USAF have their own foam shop at Warner Robyns AFB, and they cut the kits there for their own use.
Regards
Col Tigwell
The USAF and RAAF buy their foam direct, bet you it drops the budget down greatly. Perhaps then the RAF could hire Labour to do the task, and could do aircraft much quicker. Bet you have a batch of retired NCO's who would jump at the chance.
The USAF have their own foam shop at Warner Robyns AFB, and they cut the kits there for their own use.
Regards
Col Tigwell
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Hercules IPT take note:-
Like I said, my bags are packed.
Col, our hired labour of ex NCO's are the Marshall Aerospace Field Sudoku Team. What we need are Tank Rats.
Sub-contracting Crest Foam and the team at Robbins AFB is the answer.
or maybe Tank Devils down in Bournemouth
The USAF have their own foam shop at Warner Robyns AFB, and they cut the kits there for their own use.
Col, our hired labour of ex NCO's are the Marshall Aerospace Field Sudoku Team. What we need are Tank Rats.
Sub-contracting Crest Foam and the team at Robbins AFB is the answer.
or maybe Tank Devils down in Bournemouth
TANK DEVILS LTD
An independent company specialising in fuel systems and tank repair despatching teams
around the world to fix fuel leaks on a wide variety of aircraft types.
An independent company specialising in fuel systems and tank repair despatching teams
around the world to fix fuel leaks on a wide variety of aircraft types.
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Time is critical
Was it not 6 weeks (that is what we in the RAAF were quoted) To design and install the first in flight refueling on your C1's. Granted a lot of the hardware came off aircraft coming out of service, but it clearly demonstrates that the system can move quickly when it has the PM kicking butts. I believe the "Iron Lady" was behind the program.
Why cannot we put a stretched C130 into the states tomorrow, and start the program Monday. Maybe too radical, but do the aces on high, think that the war from the ground will stop because we are not ready.Oh yes you need a couple of 40ft containers, to store the foam in till it is used.
Success comes to those who are bold, dicking around will only cost more lives, and more expense, and yes we still then have to do the job.
How anyone can look into the faces, of those left behind, and still dilly dally around is beyond me.
The RAAF was lucky with its bare metal airplanes in Vietnam, we still copped some rounds, but luckily nothing greater than small arms fire, and the were also lousy shots, and did not hit our wings.
The only advantage of getting old, is that you can see these things coming, and do not live in the hope that it will not happen. These buggers are here for the long haul, and we need to understand that terrorists will be around for a long time. Your life, my life and their life count for nothing, and they will do anything to succeed.
The latest loss of a RAF Hercules, clearly shows how quickly a situation can go from being normal, to a situation way out of control, we were lucky, very lucky, but we should not put people in harms way, trusting that luck will suffice, because it never does.
Regards
Col Tigwell
Why cannot we put a stretched C130 into the states tomorrow, and start the program Monday. Maybe too radical, but do the aces on high, think that the war from the ground will stop because we are not ready.Oh yes you need a couple of 40ft containers, to store the foam in till it is used.
Success comes to those who are bold, dicking around will only cost more lives, and more expense, and yes we still then have to do the job.
How anyone can look into the faces, of those left behind, and still dilly dally around is beyond me.
The RAAF was lucky with its bare metal airplanes in Vietnam, we still copped some rounds, but luckily nothing greater than small arms fire, and the were also lousy shots, and did not hit our wings.
The only advantage of getting old, is that you can see these things coming, and do not live in the hope that it will not happen. These buggers are here for the long haul, and we need to understand that terrorists will be around for a long time. Your life, my life and their life count for nothing, and they will do anything to succeed.
The latest loss of a RAF Hercules, clearly shows how quickly a situation can go from being normal, to a situation way out of control, we were lucky, very lucky, but we should not put people in harms way, trusting that luck will suffice, because it never does.
Regards
Col Tigwell
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Another solution
Tony Blair picks up the phone and talks to George Bush.
"George old buddy I have a problem, that could mean my arse."
More chatter.
"OK George we will have the first airplane on your ramp next Monday, really appreciate that help, and you say all will done by early next year."
Too much to expect, too far fetched to happen, I wonder, do not think it would be impossable. I mean after all George owes Tony big time.
Sometimes thinking outside the circle works better.
Regards
Col Tigwell
"George old buddy I have a problem, that could mean my arse."
More chatter.
"OK George we will have the first airplane on your ramp next Monday, really appreciate that help, and you say all will done by early next year."
Too much to expect, too far fetched to happen, I wonder, do not think it would be impossable. I mean after all George owes Tony big time.
Sometimes thinking outside the circle works better.
Regards
Col Tigwell
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Its been sooo long since most guys at Lyneham have been to the States, I'm not sure they'd get there as quick as that!
Still, Staneval or the OCU could do it!!!!! That'd be popular!
Is TCAS working now and if it isn't, how much of a show-stopper is the lack of it?
Still, Staneval or the OCU could do it!!!!! That'd be popular!
Is TCAS working now and if it isn't, how much of a show-stopper is the lack of it?
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You have to have a show starter to have a show stopper..!!! The experience of SIFF/TCAS would tell us something. Maybe its because the people at the top of the Marshalls tree were at the top of the airforce tree some years ago...get my drift.
5d2d
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well chaps, this is highly unacceptable.
i have got off my bum and have written to AOC 2gp asking him to explain himself and this inertia that passes for acceptable behaviour. i'll keep you posted. now for the cheif of air staff then chief of defence.
nige, when will HTV show the filming we did last week. i've not heard back since i asked the journalists.
i have got off my bum and have written to AOC 2gp asking him to explain himself and this inertia that passes for acceptable behaviour. i'll keep you posted. now for the cheif of air staff then chief of defence.
nige, when will HTV show the filming we did last week. i've not heard back since i asked the journalists.
Last edited by chappie; 10th Jul 2006 at 17:35.
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Marshalls to blame....
Thanks to Ex herkmate and Herkman for the info on foam fitting. The issue of slippage in the Herc foam program was raised in Parliament yesterday. The Minister was pressed on the subject and blamed the delays on Marshalls. I have to say I was surprised by this rather convenient answer. If the delays are this bad should the RAF be looking elsewhere? The decision to deploy another Herc to Helmand can only make things worse. We are now in fingers firmly crossed territory. I saw CDS being interviewed yesterday. He stated that the Forces were stretched but he would not describe it as overstretch. He did, however, warn of pain to come. The master of understatement. Harmony guidelines breached all over the shop at the start of a 3 year deployment. There are some eye watering figures on retention at Sqn Ldr level doing the rounds. Retention will be an issue that CDS will get to know intimately in the future.
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righty ho, time to sort something out and find out once and for all who is telling the truth. i was thinking of writing to CDS but was advised that it would be a pointless exercise. i do know someone who works on the hercules at marshalls and so i've got his details and i've fired off an email to try and find out what is happening. i'll keep you posted....
i know that we're hitting a brick wall but it's frankly unacceptable why we are getting nowhere. i'm thinking f writing to the CO of lyneham to find out why there is the problem with getting the hercs to marshalls. if it's a case that they're all in operation then i feel i have no choice but to do something. they cannot send the alberts out without protection, and wait for their fitting because they're out in theatre in risks i don't want to contemplate. it clearly has not hit home yet that this programme needs sorting out as in yesterday...are they waiting until more aircrew lose their lives.
blood on their hands...that's what will happen.
SORT IT OUT NOW!
i know that we're hitting a brick wall but it's frankly unacceptable why we are getting nowhere. i'm thinking f writing to the CO of lyneham to find out why there is the problem with getting the hercs to marshalls. if it's a case that they're all in operation then i feel i have no choice but to do something. they cannot send the alberts out without protection, and wait for their fitting because they're out in theatre in risks i don't want to contemplate. it clearly has not hit home yet that this programme needs sorting out as in yesterday...are they waiting until more aircrew lose their lives.
blood on their hands...that's what will happen.
SORT IT OUT NOW!
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Chappie, I don't know exactly how long it takes to fit foam, but I have heard that a month is about right. If September or October is the earliest for the first foam ac then something is seriously wrong. Either that or the "Task Driven" RAF refuses to prioritise safety. The answer is there somewhere.
Last edited by nigegilb; 11th Jul 2006 at 09:50.
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I DO NOT CARE
I do not care if my comments are quoted in full to MOD or elsewhere.
I thought that I had seen some dicking around in my time, but this one really takes the cake.
The RAF needs to start thinking outside the circle, even at the rate of one airplane per month, it will take over four years. The MOD only saving face is that more aircraft could be lost, but on some of the comments made, that may suit them less money to spend.
Marshalls may be on the gravey train, to make their shareholders happy, but this is a war emergency, and the airplanes should go to where ever they can be done QUICKLY.
If Marshalls really wanted they could turn them out at the rate of one a week. But do they really need to go to Marshalls anyway.
I doubt if the USAF could help in loaning airplanes, I think they are strapped too. But they should be able to organise them to be done quickly, whether it be in house or at contracters. Perhaps this could give the RAF and Marshalls more time space to fit the other equipment.
Does Lockheed still have their service centre in Spain.
I have watched this get bogged down over the last four years, just thinking of things that will speed it up.
Perhaps the idea that it was some boffin at MOD who thought up a way to speed it up might work, I suspect all we want is a result.
Regards
Col Tigwell
I thought that I had seen some dicking around in my time, but this one really takes the cake.
The RAF needs to start thinking outside the circle, even at the rate of one airplane per month, it will take over four years. The MOD only saving face is that more aircraft could be lost, but on some of the comments made, that may suit them less money to spend.
Marshalls may be on the gravey train, to make their shareholders happy, but this is a war emergency, and the airplanes should go to where ever they can be done QUICKLY.
If Marshalls really wanted they could turn them out at the rate of one a week. But do they really need to go to Marshalls anyway.
I doubt if the USAF could help in loaning airplanes, I think they are strapped too. But they should be able to organise them to be done quickly, whether it be in house or at contracters. Perhaps this could give the RAF and Marshalls more time space to fit the other equipment.
Does Lockheed still have their service centre in Spain.
I have watched this get bogged down over the last four years, just thinking of things that will speed it up.
Perhaps the idea that it was some boffin at MOD who thought up a way to speed it up might work, I suspect all we want is a result.
Regards
Col Tigwell
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Col
Agreed. But don't forget it is the MoD we are talking about here, where lives and talk are cheap but commitment to the troops requires career-threatening action.
So, I am not hopeful that we will see any action on this.
Agreed. But don't forget it is the MoD we are talking about here, where lives and talk are cheap but commitment to the troops requires career-threatening action.
So, I am not hopeful that we will see any action on this.
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i have been checkiong up to try and get des browne's contact details as i must be sending the letters i write to the wrong place. i am trying not to be cynical about the lack of corresepondence from our honourable friend! please can someone send it to me via PM or however it is preferable.
now, i've been trying to get on with the ironing...the dizzy heights of my life,eh?! i am however like a dog with a bone between my teeth and i'm unable to let go of this. i have stumbled across this.i'm not sure if it's old news but here goes...just proves what liars we are dealing with.
" des browne states in parliament in reply to questions by james gray asking how many hercules will be fitted ,how quickly they will be fitted and for des to confirm that all hercules deployed in afg will have foam fitted to them that: i am happy to pay tribute to the contribution hercules and all those who fly in iraq and afg. he knows,as i am sure that the house does that we intend to fit the foam into hercules and to ensure that those that are deployed to the theatre are fitted with that. i have said in public, so i have no reason to say anything different in dispatch box that we hope to do that by august for the first plane. we will ensure that sufficient no's of hercules are fitted with the appropriate retardent foam so that operations can be conducted!"
well then who is the spanner in the works? he's saying that the planes are to be fitted with foam before afg but then waves goodbye as they fly off into the kandahar sunset minus foam!
now, i've been trying to get on with the ironing...the dizzy heights of my life,eh?! i am however like a dog with a bone between my teeth and i'm unable to let go of this. i have stumbled across this.i'm not sure if it's old news but here goes...just proves what liars we are dealing with.
" des browne states in parliament in reply to questions by james gray asking how many hercules will be fitted ,how quickly they will be fitted and for des to confirm that all hercules deployed in afg will have foam fitted to them that: i am happy to pay tribute to the contribution hercules and all those who fly in iraq and afg. he knows,as i am sure that the house does that we intend to fit the foam into hercules and to ensure that those that are deployed to the theatre are fitted with that. i have said in public, so i have no reason to say anything different in dispatch box that we hope to do that by august for the first plane. we will ensure that sufficient no's of hercules are fitted with the appropriate retardent foam so that operations can be conducted!"
well then who is the spanner in the works? he's saying that the planes are to be fitted with foam before afg but then waves goodbye as they fly off into the kandahar sunset minus foam!
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Chappie, might I suggest you write to CAS Air Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy? This is what he said to HCDC on 07 Mar.
We will never put an aircraft into Afghanistan which does not have a defensive aid suite that we think is capable of taking on the threat which they may be faced with.
.....Air Marshal Torpy told the Committee that "All our aircraft will have an appropriate suite of those capabilities to match the threat that our intelligence indicates is going to be faced in Afghanistan".....
Q183 Robert Key: Are all the Hercules deployed in Afghanistan fitted with full defensive aid suites?
**Air Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy: They are.
**Q184 Robert Key: Can you define what you mean by "full"?
**Air Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy: They have adequate defensive aids to match the threat that we are going to face in Afghanistan, without going into the detail of the defensive aids.
**Q185 Robert Key: This is quite important because yesterday in the House of Lords Lord Drayson said in column 524 that we use aircraft only when they have the appropriate defensive aid suites. Later on, in answer to Lord Luke, he said that the aircraft go into those areas having in all cases the defensive aid suites that they require. Can you confirm that in 2004-05 the programme to equip the 15J Hercules with the latest generation defensive aid suites was cancelled?
**Air Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy: I cannot confirm that.....
*Air Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy: Could I clarify on defensive aid suites? Maybe I did not make myself completely clear. Defensive aid suites mean exactly what they say. There is a range of capabilities which are brigaded under that. Some are for warning and some are for countering the threats which are then picked up by those systems. All of our aircraft will have an appropriate suite of those capabilities to match the threat that our intelligence indicates is going to be faced in Afghanistan.
We will never put an aircraft into Afghanistan which does not have a defensive aid suite that we think is capable of taking on the threat which they may be faced with.
.....Air Marshal Torpy told the Committee that "All our aircraft will have an appropriate suite of those capabilities to match the threat that our intelligence indicates is going to be faced in Afghanistan".....
Q183 Robert Key: Are all the Hercules deployed in Afghanistan fitted with full defensive aid suites?
**Air Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy: They are.
**Q184 Robert Key: Can you define what you mean by "full"?
**Air Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy: They have adequate defensive aids to match the threat that we are going to face in Afghanistan, without going into the detail of the defensive aids.
**Q185 Robert Key: This is quite important because yesterday in the House of Lords Lord Drayson said in column 524 that we use aircraft only when they have the appropriate defensive aid suites. Later on, in answer to Lord Luke, he said that the aircraft go into those areas having in all cases the defensive aid suites that they require. Can you confirm that in 2004-05 the programme to equip the 15J Hercules with the latest generation defensive aid suites was cancelled?
**Air Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy: I cannot confirm that.....
*Air Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy: Could I clarify on defensive aid suites? Maybe I did not make myself completely clear. Defensive aid suites mean exactly what they say. There is a range of capabilities which are brigaded under that. Some are for warning and some are for countering the threats which are then picked up by those systems. All of our aircraft will have an appropriate suite of those capabilities to match the threat that our intelligence indicates is going to be faced in Afghanistan.
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consider it done. i think the way that the MoD manage the way they do is to consistently move the goal posts.it is starting to get n my nerves the need to keep using the words appropriate and sufficient. i thought that we are the best in the world? how can that be expected to continue when they are not equipping the force with the best. terms like limited resources should have no place in the language of defence.i do not see how it ca be reasoned unless any distant readers from whitehall would like to put their two penneth worth in?
i had thought about writing to sir jock stirrup. i was advised that i would be wasting my time in corresponding with the airships as they will not go against the establishment. i know there is sense in that, but if i ever did as i was told then i wouldn't be here right now helping us get to the point where we are now (although it's easy to lose heart at this moment in time) and we would not have a petition that has been seen right rouund the world with over 2500 signatures on it! i have met with sir jock and his wife at the repatriation. it's fair to say that she will never be the queen of small talk...quote..you must be feeling very sad! it's fair to say love it's pretty obvious i was dying to say that no i'm fine what do you mean? i wanted to play but i knew i'd not be allowed! boo hoo. so what do you think nige? just keep it to glen or include jock as well? you know me anything to help. i've found the defence press office so i can sort out handing over of the petition.
i had thought about writing to sir jock stirrup. i was advised that i would be wasting my time in corresponding with the airships as they will not go against the establishment. i know there is sense in that, but if i ever did as i was told then i wouldn't be here right now helping us get to the point where we are now (although it's easy to lose heart at this moment in time) and we would not have a petition that has been seen right rouund the world with over 2500 signatures on it! i have met with sir jock and his wife at the repatriation. it's fair to say that she will never be the queen of small talk...quote..you must be feeling very sad! it's fair to say love it's pretty obvious i was dying to say that no i'm fine what do you mean? i wanted to play but i knew i'd not be allowed! boo hoo. so what do you think nige? just keep it to glen or include jock as well? you know me anything to help. i've found the defence press office so i can sort out handing over of the petition.