Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: wilts
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SCROGGS,
Support what Cirrus is saying. Maybe the commercial pilots could make clear on the petition that they are aviators. There is an awful lot of work going on in the airlines to reduce the chance for fuel tank explosions. It would send out a strong message to the Govt if the commercial aviation world backed our demand for fuel tank protection.
Chappie maybe MFAW should hang back before pulling the petition. Does anyone have any contacts at Flight International? They appear to be on side in all this, maybe they could run an article. That would get world wide coverage.
Chappie your break seems to have done you some good, welcome back to our little front line!
Support what Cirrus is saying. Maybe the commercial pilots could make clear on the petition that they are aviators. There is an awful lot of work going on in the airlines to reduce the chance for fuel tank explosions. It would send out a strong message to the Govt if the commercial aviation world backed our demand for fuel tank protection.
Chappie maybe MFAW should hang back before pulling the petition. Does anyone have any contacts at Flight International? They appear to be on side in all this, maybe they could run an article. That would get world wide coverage.
Chappie your break seems to have done you some good, welcome back to our little front line!
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
nigegilb
Thank you for your support in this particular request - I merely continue to write in humble support of your own and chappie's remarkable efforts and achievements.
I do recall, from very many years ago, as a callow and testosterone charged youngster, not being particularly fussed about being shot at by opposing forces, whilst engaged in the ground attack role, during what now seems to be a forgotten and unimportant post-colonial, middle-eastern skirmish but which was, at the time, a life-and-death matter in an overarching Cold War context.
The idea of ESF in a strike aircraft of that time would have been both laughable and counter to the prevailing military ethos - as indeed were parachutes for aviators to the General Staff of 1914.
Times change, however, and whilst those of us who may have eventually reflected on our former "action" days and similarly marveled at our luck at still being here, those who seem never to have encountered the realities of counter-fire but who are now in power and hence in a position (though from what experience) to decide on what current equipment/protection for the fighting forces is appropriate, seem wedded to the old concepts of minimally equipped, gung-ho, macho can-do (as long as it's not themselves who are responsible for the on-the-ground-doing).
Why does this former military ethos prevails in the minds of the current decision makers? Perhaps they think it appropriate that British infantry forces should buy their own up-to-standard personal kit (fit for purpose. c.f John Read), that they can survive counter-insurgency ops without appropriate body armour, that RAF aircrew should fly unprotected, clapped-out C130 transports, in support of a contentious Middle East/South Asia policy, that the merest and politest query or protest should be fobbed-off as unfounded and ignorant nonsense?
A shame on you Bliar, your lickspittle generals and air marshals - you gutless cowards, you prevaricating paper-clip counters, you dissimulators, you weasel-word merchants. How do you sleep at night?
Thank you for your support in this particular request - I merely continue to write in humble support of your own and chappie's remarkable efforts and achievements.
I do recall, from very many years ago, as a callow and testosterone charged youngster, not being particularly fussed about being shot at by opposing forces, whilst engaged in the ground attack role, during what now seems to be a forgotten and unimportant post-colonial, middle-eastern skirmish but which was, at the time, a life-and-death matter in an overarching Cold War context.
The idea of ESF in a strike aircraft of that time would have been both laughable and counter to the prevailing military ethos - as indeed were parachutes for aviators to the General Staff of 1914.
Times change, however, and whilst those of us who may have eventually reflected on our former "action" days and similarly marveled at our luck at still being here, those who seem never to have encountered the realities of counter-fire but who are now in power and hence in a position (though from what experience) to decide on what current equipment/protection for the fighting forces is appropriate, seem wedded to the old concepts of minimally equipped, gung-ho, macho can-do (as long as it's not themselves who are responsible for the on-the-ground-doing).
Why does this former military ethos prevails in the minds of the current decision makers? Perhaps they think it appropriate that British infantry forces should buy their own up-to-standard personal kit (fit for purpose. c.f John Read), that they can survive counter-insurgency ops without appropriate body armour, that RAF aircrew should fly unprotected, clapped-out C130 transports, in support of a contentious Middle East/South Asia policy, that the merest and politest query or protest should be fobbed-off as unfounded and ignorant nonsense?
A shame on you Bliar, your lickspittle generals and air marshals - you gutless cowards, you prevaricating paper-clip counters, you dissimulators, you weasel-word merchants. How do you sleep at night?
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: England
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm an outsider (including the shipping industry amongst several past lives), but please don't jump all over me for venturing a suggested alternative approach to the strategic issue of how best to provide the resource of what used to be called Transport Command (today's C17s and Hercs).
From what I read there is the classic problem of a leadership who come from the cavalry and are not either knowlegeable about or really interested in the waggon train (I did my National Service in tank transporters - with civilian Polish drivers - carrying the cavalry's tanks).
The Royal Navy do not re-supply their own oil, ammo or rice - that is done by the Royal Fleet Auxiliary: a separate operation with their own ships, a long and honourable tradition, and their own flag - the Blue Ensign. They are legally civilians but they serve wherever the RN goes - remember the Sir Galahad in the Falklands. Their vessels are equipped with defensive armament which they are trained to use.
But they are independent of the RN with their own career structure and funding. With this separate identity they can fight their own corner when it comes to procurement: the RN says it will build two new carriers, the RFA says how many oilers, etc it must have to support them. Nothing is as simple as it sounds, and the views of RFA types might differ, but is there here just a thought for a new strategy towards handling this cultural divide?
From what I read there is the classic problem of a leadership who come from the cavalry and are not either knowlegeable about or really interested in the waggon train (I did my National Service in tank transporters - with civilian Polish drivers - carrying the cavalry's tanks).
The Royal Navy do not re-supply their own oil, ammo or rice - that is done by the Royal Fleet Auxiliary: a separate operation with their own ships, a long and honourable tradition, and their own flag - the Blue Ensign. They are legally civilians but they serve wherever the RN goes - remember the Sir Galahad in the Falklands. Their vessels are equipped with defensive armament which they are trained to use.
But they are independent of the RN with their own career structure and funding. With this separate identity they can fight their own corner when it comes to procurement: the RN says it will build two new carriers, the RFA says how many oilers, etc it must have to support them. Nothing is as simple as it sounds, and the views of RFA types might differ, but is there here just a thought for a new strategy towards handling this cultural divide?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: wilts
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reaction to 727 fuel tank explosion in India.
"The tragic TWA 800 accident in 1996 highlighted the vulnerability of transport aircraft fuel tanks," said NTSB acting chairman Mark Rosenker in a statement today. "A decade later, the issue remains a major concern of the Safety Board and is on our Most Wanted List of Safety Improvements. I am hopeful what is learned in this investigation may provide added impetus for a resolution of this problem without further delay."
After a series of safety studies following the TWA-800 disaster, the FAA proposed a rule that would mandate fuel-tank "flammability reduction systems" on all commercial aircraft that have a center fuel tank and require retrofits on in-service aircraft. Center tanks are heated and more vulnerable to explosions than wing tanks.
The most likely way of meeting the mandated requirement is the fitting of inerting systems, which work by releasing non-flammable nitrogen gas into the space in the tank as the fuel level goes down in flight.
Boeing is currently testing an inerting system and expects in about six months to have it certified and ready to install on all new jets coming off its assembly lines.
"The tragic TWA 800 accident in 1996 highlighted the vulnerability of transport aircraft fuel tanks," said NTSB acting chairman Mark Rosenker in a statement today. "A decade later, the issue remains a major concern of the Safety Board and is on our Most Wanted List of Safety Improvements. I am hopeful what is learned in this investigation may provide added impetus for a resolution of this problem without further delay."
After a series of safety studies following the TWA-800 disaster, the FAA proposed a rule that would mandate fuel-tank "flammability reduction systems" on all commercial aircraft that have a center fuel tank and require retrofits on in-service aircraft. Center tanks are heated and more vulnerable to explosions than wing tanks.
The most likely way of meeting the mandated requirement is the fitting of inerting systems, which work by releasing non-flammable nitrogen gas into the space in the tank as the fuel level goes down in flight.
Boeing is currently testing an inerting system and expects in about six months to have it certified and ready to install on all new jets coming off its assembly lines.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK Sometimes
Posts: 1,062
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It might be worth re posting the link to Chappie's petition, as it appears quite a few pages back
so....http://www.mfaw.org.uk
It is very encouraging to see so many of the 'great and the good' appending their names.
Treeeeeemendous!
Now, we must get all of our mates and families to sign.
so....http://www.mfaw.org.uk
It is very encouraging to see so many of the 'great and the good' appending their names.
Treeeeeemendous!
Now, we must get all of our mates and families to sign.
Last edited by flipster; 7th Jun 2006 at 00:21.
Direct link here:
http://www.petitiononline.com/XV179/petition.html
I note one ex-4 star has signed - and a top chap he is too!
http://www.petitiononline.com/XV179/petition.html
I note one ex-4 star has signed - and a top chap he is too!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: England
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Green Flash
4 Wings
Apologies for potential thickness, but are you suggesting that we have a privatised air transport org or Civil Service Air? (Presume the Blue Duster boys are civil servants, in it's widest sense?).
Apologies for potential thickness, but are you suggesting that we have a privatised air transport org or Civil Service Air? (Presume the Blue Duster boys are civil servants, in it's widest sense?).
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: wilts
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We have our very own Chappie over here, KAM in Australia, I always knew that women were the real powerhouses, that's what my commander, err wife tells me anyway.
1858. Glynn Turner "Having served for 20 years in the RAF it appalls me that the senior management can try and abdicate responsibility by stating that they were not aware of the possible solution to this known risk; that is just inconceivable when it is known that the USAF and RAAF had this solution implemented, and they do all the victims and their families a great disservice by taking this line." Ex Military Air Traffic Controller
Well said that man
1858. Glynn Turner "Having served for 20 years in the RAF it appalls me that the senior management can try and abdicate responsibility by stating that they were not aware of the possible solution to this known risk; that is just inconceivable when it is known that the USAF and RAAF had this solution implemented, and they do all the victims and their families a great disservice by taking this line." Ex Military Air Traffic Controller
Well said that man
Last edited by nigegilb; 7th Jun 2006 at 10:48.
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nige and HighCirrus: Not my call, I'm afraid, HC. Danny is aware of the issue, and it would be entirely up to him. I wouldn't get your hopes up; if we promote one political campaign, how do we say no to others? The issue is a live one among both civilian and military aircrew, and I know from personal experience that my ex-mil colleagues are bringing the petition to the attention of their all-through-civilian bretheren.
This website caters exclusively for those engaged in aviation. Others may read and even participate, but they are peripheral to the purpose of this site. While the campaign you are engaged in currently involves aviation as its focus, its primary cause is the wider moral issue of what physical protection a nation offers its fighting forces, and that is a political issue for the entire electorate. As such, it is correctly being discussed in the open media where all citizens (including the non-military members of Pprune) can access the discussion. On this board, however, its proper context is within the Mil Aircrew forum, and I suspect that is where it will stay.
Scroggs
This website caters exclusively for those engaged in aviation. Others may read and even participate, but they are peripheral to the purpose of this site. While the campaign you are engaged in currently involves aviation as its focus, its primary cause is the wider moral issue of what physical protection a nation offers its fighting forces, and that is a political issue for the entire electorate. As such, it is correctly being discussed in the open media where all citizens (including the non-military members of Pprune) can access the discussion. On this board, however, its proper context is within the Mil Aircrew forum, and I suspect that is where it will stay.
Scroggs
Join Date: May 2006
Location: England
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have you got what it takes?
In military history, there are people that stand out. Military personnel that before they were recognized, had an average level of authority. After they were recognized? Well, after being recognized they were names that were admired and respected, for a decision or stance that very few others were willing to take.
For these few, going through the chain of command was a non starter. They knew full well that they would be told to sit down and shut up. What did they do? They went as high as possible and made their case.
Now what is the difference between those that try then succeed, and those that try and fail?...........
Those that succeeded were called hero's in the eye of the public before a decision could be made on the matter.
Never under estimate the power of the print. Our national newspapers and television news channels can make or break people. Politicians play the press, why can't we? On a national scale, in the public eye this could have been pushed through at a time when needed. We all know the immense amount of work that has been done by the 'usual suspects' on this thread. But it maybe someone with a head start, closer to the decision makers, that is needed.
Sorry, now for the down side.
Have we got a hero sitting at a level where they have enough respect to be heard? Do the leaders at the very highest level have the plums big enough to even listen to what they have to say (never mind action on it)? And finally, will we have the backing of the national press to back this person up on their 'do or die' attempt to progress the situation?
I would love to say yes to all 3 points, maybe even 2. I fear that there will be a 50/50 chance that only 1 of these facts exist. If this is true, we live in very worrying times.
The fear of rejection has progressed to more than just being turned away for the last dance in a nightclub! This time though, no-one will get to dance at all.
There is always a chance that someone will step forward and chance it. If they do, they should make their intentions clear so that every person with a contact can prep the nationals before hand.
Keep the faith,
Permanent Sand.
For these few, going through the chain of command was a non starter. They knew full well that they would be told to sit down and shut up. What did they do? They went as high as possible and made their case.
Now what is the difference between those that try then succeed, and those that try and fail?...........
Those that succeeded were called hero's in the eye of the public before a decision could be made on the matter.
Never under estimate the power of the print. Our national newspapers and television news channels can make or break people. Politicians play the press, why can't we? On a national scale, in the public eye this could have been pushed through at a time when needed. We all know the immense amount of work that has been done by the 'usual suspects' on this thread. But it maybe someone with a head start, closer to the decision makers, that is needed.
Sorry, now for the down side.
Have we got a hero sitting at a level where they have enough respect to be heard? Do the leaders at the very highest level have the plums big enough to even listen to what they have to say (never mind action on it)? And finally, will we have the backing of the national press to back this person up on their 'do or die' attempt to progress the situation?
I would love to say yes to all 3 points, maybe even 2. I fear that there will be a 50/50 chance that only 1 of these facts exist. If this is true, we live in very worrying times.
The fear of rejection has progressed to more than just being turned away for the last dance in a nightclub! This time though, no-one will get to dance at all.
There is always a chance that someone will step forward and chance it. If they do, they should make their intentions clear so that every person with a contact can prep the nationals before hand.
Keep the faith,
Permanent Sand.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK Sometimes
Posts: 1,062
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scroggs (and, in turn, Danny),
I can see your POV but I also believe you have, inadvertently, missed a vital point.
This campaign is totally apolitical - it is only about fellow aviators being put in harm's way - without the proper level of support and protection. The sad fact is that the military 'top brass' are rather reticent, so we have had to by-pass them and target their 'masters'.
These fellow aviators, whom we are all seeking to help, are our brothers and sisters - figuratively and, perhaps, literally in some cases.
Surely, the least we can do is help highlight their predicament? I would have hoped that we could count on the unconditional support of PPrune?
However, no-one is asking PPrune to actually endorse the campaign - only to help raise awareness of the campaign's existence.
You could add a disclaimer, if you so wish.......but I think you won't.
After all, each and every one of us is from the same mould - we have all been infected with the joy of flying and we all share the same desire to 'slip the surly bonds', in some way or form.
The brave souls who are risking their necks in-theatre are our family and I'm absolutely sure we won't want to let them down. Please tell me I'm right?
Flipster
I can see your POV but I also believe you have, inadvertently, missed a vital point.
This campaign is totally apolitical - it is only about fellow aviators being put in harm's way - without the proper level of support and protection. The sad fact is that the military 'top brass' are rather reticent, so we have had to by-pass them and target their 'masters'.
These fellow aviators, whom we are all seeking to help, are our brothers and sisters - figuratively and, perhaps, literally in some cases.
Surely, the least we can do is help highlight their predicament? I would have hoped that we could count on the unconditional support of PPrune?
However, no-one is asking PPrune to actually endorse the campaign - only to help raise awareness of the campaign's existence.
You could add a disclaimer, if you so wish.......but I think you won't.
After all, each and every one of us is from the same mould - we have all been infected with the joy of flying and we all share the same desire to 'slip the surly bonds', in some way or form.
The brave souls who are risking their necks in-theatre are our family and I'm absolutely sure we won't want to let them down. Please tell me I'm right?
Flipster
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK Sometimes
Posts: 1,062
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite agree PS
I know there are people who share our feelings and wish they could do something - and some of them are quite 'high up'.
All it would take is for a couple of them to 'speak as one'. Who knows what might come of that?
Certainly, the tissue of lies currently spouted by their ministers would be 'shot to sh!t' (pardon my expletive).......but not before time.
Stand up, MEN....and be counted!
I know there are people who share our feelings and wish they could do something - and some of them are quite 'high up'.
All it would take is for a couple of them to 'speak as one'. Who knows what might come of that?
Certainly, the tissue of lies currently spouted by their ministers would be 'shot to sh!t' (pardon my expletive).......but not before time.
Stand up, MEN....and be counted!
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
flipster
I was about to put fingers to keyboard to make exactly the points that you have well made.
In your post of 5 June 2006, you similarly well made the explanation as to why AOC 2 Gp – CinC Strike – CDS will not rock the boat, despite there being a widely publicised problem crying out to be rectified. The duality of this situation is that the UK “brass” have ever safeguarded their careers rather than their troops and the ongoing hatred between Bliar and Brown keeps the purse strings firmly drawn against anything more than the minimum defence spending that the latter can get away with. Imagine running a whelk stall like that? It’d be out of business in a week!
scrogs
Thank you for your cogent and well considered reply. Perhaps Danny could consider the points made by flipster?
nigegilb
Yes, an ejector seat was very comforting at the time but I’m not sure that I’d have liked to come down amongst the recent recipients of my rockets. I’m sure they would have been highly agitated and they had very sharp knives!
I am full of admiration for the Herc crews whose insouciance under fire, in relatively slow, large target, fuel laden aircraft, whilst regularly operating into and out of Iraq and Afghanistan, is an inspiration to us all and entirely in keeping with the finest traditions of a Service which, despite the political meddling and incompetence of the past nine miserable years, remains a credit to the nation.
I was about to put fingers to keyboard to make exactly the points that you have well made.
In your post of 5 June 2006, you similarly well made the explanation as to why AOC 2 Gp – CinC Strike – CDS will not rock the boat, despite there being a widely publicised problem crying out to be rectified. The duality of this situation is that the UK “brass” have ever safeguarded their careers rather than their troops and the ongoing hatred between Bliar and Brown keeps the purse strings firmly drawn against anything more than the minimum defence spending that the latter can get away with. Imagine running a whelk stall like that? It’d be out of business in a week!
scrogs
Thank you for your cogent and well considered reply. Perhaps Danny could consider the points made by flipster?
nigegilb
Yes, an ejector seat was very comforting at the time but I’m not sure that I’d have liked to come down amongst the recent recipients of my rockets. I’m sure they would have been highly agitated and they had very sharp knives!
I am full of admiration for the Herc crews whose insouciance under fire, in relatively slow, large target, fuel laden aircraft, whilst regularly operating into and out of Iraq and Afghanistan, is an inspiration to us all and entirely in keeping with the finest traditions of a Service which, despite the political meddling and incompetence of the past nine miserable years, remains a credit to the nation.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: cambridge
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
right, i'm in the throes of trying to get the petition signed by as many people. i carry one around in my handbag and whenever i talk to some unsuspecting individual out it comes. i've been around the local community and got them out in the businesses. i saw a brilliant suggestion to enter it into flight magasine. does anyone know the contacts necessary? please help. also, is there any other editorials that should run it? any other flight magasines? i don't suppose it will be welcomed by RAF news?!! we're nearly at about 2000 signatures. please do not get complacent though. please take heart with the fact that there are signatures from australia defence dept. friends in high places etc. remember, sunday is when i'm meeting up with others about the next step of the campaign.des browne aka swiss tony is still hiding from me. i'm sweetness and light, honestly. i don't bite, well not less you ask really nicely!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: cambridge
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
can i please say a huge thankyou to everyone of you who has taken the time to sign the petition and spread the word. i've just checked and there is
2020 thanks a billion, lets keep it going
2020 thanks a billion, lets keep it going
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In the dark
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chappie
can i please say a huge thankyou to everyone of you who has taken the time to sign the petition and spread the word. i've just checked and there is
2020 thanks a billion, lets keep it going
2020 thanks a billion, lets keep it going
We should all be thanking you. You are an inspiration to us all.
FF