Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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Paz
Neither you nor P+F have told us anything new connected to the gist of this thread but it is obvious that there is a difference of opinion between Chappie and Bob's fiancee and/or her friends; this is understandable. However, many of us believe that this thread is not the time nor the place for such differences to be aired and Chappie has suggested an off-line solution. I suggest that this is seriously considered by both parties, so preventing any inappropriate thread creep/unbecoming slanging matches and allowing the real issues to be discussed - the needless risks faced by our crews in aircraft that should be better protected.
Chappie's actions in this respect speak volumes; her commitment and courage remains immense and an example to us all. I suspect that, whatever her motivation and in spite of any past differences between the two of them, Bob could only be proud of her unflagging desire to improve the protection afforded to his former comrades.
I think most us should now consider the 'family issue' a closed book and would reccommend it is not mentioned again on this thread. PM Chappie if you so wish.
Fair enuff?
On the bunk
To a degree you are correct. However, the problem is that only a few ac will get ESF (and no Js) - but the ac can't be in 2 places at once and the delays in fitment of ESF are getting longer and longer.
Additionally, the pressure to increase the number of frames in AFG will only build as the fiasco in Helmand unravels and, guess what? We will be back with 'slicks' and inexperienced crews a la 2002/3!!
That is why the pressure on MoD should be maintained so they don't think that everything is 'sweetness and light' just because they have agreed to fit a paltry few ac with ESF sometime in the future.... rather than with the utmost urgency.
Furthermore, ESF is not the panacea for all ills; there are other things that should be fitted which are extremely important to improve the self-protection of both Ks and Js. ESF is only the tip of the iceberg and, what is more, this issue can be read across to many other fleets.
So let's all help keep the pressure up and not fault-find with eachother? Constructive advice, on the other hand, would be gratefully accepted!
Neither you nor P+F have told us anything new connected to the gist of this thread but it is obvious that there is a difference of opinion between Chappie and Bob's fiancee and/or her friends; this is understandable. However, many of us believe that this thread is not the time nor the place for such differences to be aired and Chappie has suggested an off-line solution. I suggest that this is seriously considered by both parties, so preventing any inappropriate thread creep/unbecoming slanging matches and allowing the real issues to be discussed - the needless risks faced by our crews in aircraft that should be better protected.
Chappie's actions in this respect speak volumes; her commitment and courage remains immense and an example to us all. I suspect that, whatever her motivation and in spite of any past differences between the two of them, Bob could only be proud of her unflagging desire to improve the protection afforded to his former comrades.
I think most us should now consider the 'family issue' a closed book and would reccommend it is not mentioned again on this thread. PM Chappie if you so wish.
Fair enuff?
On the bunk
To a degree you are correct. However, the problem is that only a few ac will get ESF (and no Js) - but the ac can't be in 2 places at once and the delays in fitment of ESF are getting longer and longer.
Additionally, the pressure to increase the number of frames in AFG will only build as the fiasco in Helmand unravels and, guess what? We will be back with 'slicks' and inexperienced crews a la 2002/3!!
That is why the pressure on MoD should be maintained so they don't think that everything is 'sweetness and light' just because they have agreed to fit a paltry few ac with ESF sometime in the future.... rather than with the utmost urgency.
Furthermore, ESF is not the panacea for all ills; there are other things that should be fitted which are extremely important to improve the self-protection of both Ks and Js. ESF is only the tip of the iceberg and, what is more, this issue can be read across to many other fleets.
So let's all help keep the pressure up and not fault-find with eachother? Constructive advice, on the other hand, would be gratefully accepted!
Last edited by flipster; 6th Jul 2006 at 06:54.
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Well said Flip.
Safety of Herc crews vis a vis foam was not taken into account when the plan was drawn up for the Afg deployment. Even though it was well known that a lack of foam was a major factor in the deaths of 10 men. The MoD seems to think that a skittish statement about agreeing to fit foam to some frames at some time in the future will placate us.
NO CHANCE.
We will have to apply pressure again. We want assurances as to how many frames and the time scale. We want to know what is causing slippage. We could see that this deployment was poorly planned from the very beginning. Now there will be pressure to overstretch from the very people who endorsed the plan.
Safety of Herc crews vis a vis foam was not taken into account when the plan was drawn up for the Afg deployment. Even though it was well known that a lack of foam was a major factor in the deaths of 10 men. The MoD seems to think that a skittish statement about agreeing to fit foam to some frames at some time in the future will placate us.
NO CHANCE.
We will have to apply pressure again. We want assurances as to how many frames and the time scale. We want to know what is causing slippage. We could see that this deployment was poorly planned from the very beginning. Now there will be pressure to overstretch from the very people who endorsed the plan.
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Constructive advice?
How about this:
UK plc has to reduce risk ALARP, but can't get ac mod'd quick enough. Therefore, if US ac have ESF, how about an 'exchange programme' where we borrow some of their ac to do our 'stuff', and we lend them the same number to do 'stuff' out of harms way? Whether this need involve exchanging crews as well, I don't know.
sw
UK plc has to reduce risk ALARP, but can't get ac mod'd quick enough. Therefore, if US ac have ESF, how about an 'exchange programme' where we borrow some of their ac to do our 'stuff', and we lend them the same number to do 'stuff' out of harms way? Whether this need involve exchanging crews as well, I don't know.
sw
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and how about this:-
Marshall of Cambridge are (already?) contracted to do one at a time, maybe it is logistically impossible to do them any quicker. Therefore the MOD program would take several years.
Investigate the companies that carried out the ESF MOD on the US and Aussie Hercs and sub contract them to carry out the MOD in parrallel.
My bags are packed!
Marshall of Cambridge are (already?) contracted to do one at a time, maybe it is logistically impossible to do them any quicker. Therefore the MOD program would take several years.
Investigate the companies that carried out the ESF MOD on the US and Aussie Hercs and sub contract them to carry out the MOD in parrallel.
My bags are packed!
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Originally Posted by SirPeterHardingsLovechild
and how about this:-
Marshall of Cambridge are (already?) contracted to do one at a time, maybe it is logistically impossible to do them any quicker. Therefore the MOD program would take several years.
Investigate the companies that carried out the ESF MOD on the US and Aussie Hercs and sub contract them to carry out the MOD in parrallel.
My bags are packed!
Marshall of Cambridge are (already?) contracted to do one at a time, maybe it is logistically impossible to do them any quicker. Therefore the MOD program would take several years.
Investigate the companies that carried out the ESF MOD on the US and Aussie Hercs and sub contract them to carry out the MOD in parrallel.
My bags are packed!
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Guys
Are we seriously thinking that the MoD is getting into our server and deleting/blocking posts and that ministry types are planning a conspiracy.
Honestly, I think we're damaging the credibility of the thread and some of the work. It's been very fruitful, lets not spoil it!
RK
Are we seriously thinking that the MoD is getting into our server and deleting/blocking posts and that ministry types are planning a conspiracy.
Honestly, I think we're damaging the credibility of the thread and some of the work. It's been very fruitful, lets not spoil it!
RK
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The 'Cambridge' problem is just the tip of the iceberg....I can imagine the RAF topbrass must be threaders with the attention C130's are attracting ! The constant demands about funding must be seriously damaging the 'launch' of the new fast shinny jet thing that they have spent all the cash on. As I posted previously,the CAS was forthright with his comments that 'Typhoon wasn't a waste of cash' and we should be proud that ' british jobs were being safeguarded for the future'. Shame he doesn't have the same feelings toward the present crew and PAX travelling in Ascot airlines.
5d2d
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hi one and all! how the devil are you? i know it is highly unlikely that the MoD/government people are actually interjecting the thread. we of course know that we have got them all a little hot under the collar! i really would be suprised if they were to stop monitoring the page from afar and actually joined in and then proceeded to stir things up! i'm feeling a little inspired...what about i apply to go onto question time? i certainly have alot to say though i know that you are restricted to one question but i'd make sure it was a humdinger! whad'ya reckon?on monday when i was at the meeting i spoke alongside rose gentle. i don't know if any of you know who she is? she is a mum who's son died out in iraq two years ago. i think he was one f the first or the youngest at the time to die. anyway, a while back rose stood for election and stood up against adam ingram. that man would not acknowledge her, he was rude to say the least. he addressed her as saddams little helper amongst other insults! remember this is a woman who has lost her son in iraq..what a fine example to set for his constituents. he had a hard time for it and when the time came to do the read out of votes he got a hard time from the floor. in fact he could hardly be heard! due to the pressure and outrage he offered his hand but unsuprisingly she did not accept. this man has tried to hide behind legislation in order to avoid answering questions around the hercules questions. i was so angry that a man of such a postion could say that to a grieving mum even if she was his political opponent. i guess i'm being a bit namby pamby.
i'm to assume the cambridge pproblem you refer to is marshalls. is it the RaF who decided how many planes could be done or is it marshalls? even if a number of planes gwet done at a time it will still take a long time. i'm not foolish and niaeve ( sorry i don't know how to spell it) to think that the foam will be sorted out without problems but the important thing is that it gets done.
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Adam Ingram assured my father in 2002 that every Hercules crossing the border to Afghanistan had a Defensive Aids Suite. We did not, we had IRCM only. He is one of the reasons I have worked so hard to improve the chances of Hercules crews following in my footsteps. There is a lot more I can say but I wont, for reasons that hopefully will become obvious.
Rose Gentle is a brave woman for whom I have a great deal of respect.
NG
Rose Gentle is a brave woman for whom I have a great deal of respect.
NG
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[quote=tucumseh]N4
I think you are correct. In this, and other threads, you can spot the MoD/Government lackeys a mile away.
I think maybe you are a little paranoid,....or perhaps feeling a little too self-important to think that 'MoD lackeys' are reading in on this.
I posted earlier about wanting to help out,...but looking back over the thread after reading your comment tucumseh, it's become a little apparent that some people here are fighting personal battles rather than a larger cause.
I know I know, your all going to say things like 'Oh, another one time poster, who'll probable never write again'.....or.....'you have no idea what your talking about'.....or many other seemingly pointless comebacks.
I have read pages of replies to comments made by the likes of P+F, Pazmanga, and other...and eventhough some people have made relatively sound replies, it seems to me a lot of time has been wasted doing so in the first place.
I mean, as an example,...chappie, even though I see you have a personal connection to this worthy cause, I really think fingering out 'Col' like that, was out of order,..you keep saying, lets keep it professional. Then do so.
I think you are correct. In this, and other threads, you can spot the MoD/Government lackeys a mile away.
I think maybe you are a little paranoid,....or perhaps feeling a little too self-important to think that 'MoD lackeys' are reading in on this.
I posted earlier about wanting to help out,...but looking back over the thread after reading your comment tucumseh, it's become a little apparent that some people here are fighting personal battles rather than a larger cause.
I know I know, your all going to say things like 'Oh, another one time poster, who'll probable never write again'.....or.....'you have no idea what your talking about'.....or many other seemingly pointless comebacks.
I have read pages of replies to comments made by the likes of P+F, Pazmanga, and other...and eventhough some people have made relatively sound replies, it seems to me a lot of time has been wasted doing so in the first place.
I mean, as an example,...chappie, even though I see you have a personal connection to this worthy cause, I really think fingering out 'Col' like that, was out of order,..you keep saying, lets keep it professional. Then do so.
Hello Dolly
There is is no doubt that MoD officials read these threads. They’ve told me so. To be fair, the only time I’ve been formally contacted was to seek help on the background to an old project, as it was obvious from a post I made that I knew something that had been lost to them. I helped them out.
Perhaps “apologists” would have been a better description of the minority who seem blind to what is going on, or have their own agenda. My own opinion is that the Freedom of Information Act has placed an astonishing body of very embarrassing evidence in the public domain. It is the MoD who is paranoid about what they now say or do. When supplying under FOI they seem more intent on blanking out the names of officials and their file references than filtering the actual content. In my case, it is because the originators did the sanitising without understanding the narrative content, or its significance. It is clear they are very nervous about what currently serving officials have done in the past, thinking it would never get out.
As for personal battles, I think each has his own area of, often considerable, experience and expertise. I am not, and never have been, aircrew. My background is one of having had to witness financial waste on an industrial scale in PE, DPA and DLO. Under FOI, I sought and obtained clear written evidence that the MoD, at the most senior levels, continue to practice and condone this. (And, as I have this under FOI, and it complements other open source information, I feel entitled to post on the subject). I sympathise enormously with our Servicemen and women who are continually fobbed off with insufficient and unsuitable kit. This thread is one of the classic examples as it contains elements of everything that is wrong with the MoD (and there is much that is right). There is funding to fit DAS/ESF. The point of many of my posts is that, far from the MoD’s pleas that they don’t get enough funding from the Treasury, it is a 10 minute job to identify hundreds of millions of waste just within my boundary of experience. And if the MoD has been told this, acknowledged it, yet refused to do anything; then they have abrogated their responsibility, avoided a legal obligation and failed in their duty of care to our troops. They’ve dug their own hole my friend.
My continued good wishes to Nigel, Chappie et al.
There is is no doubt that MoD officials read these threads. They’ve told me so. To be fair, the only time I’ve been formally contacted was to seek help on the background to an old project, as it was obvious from a post I made that I knew something that had been lost to them. I helped them out.
Perhaps “apologists” would have been a better description of the minority who seem blind to what is going on, or have their own agenda. My own opinion is that the Freedom of Information Act has placed an astonishing body of very embarrassing evidence in the public domain. It is the MoD who is paranoid about what they now say or do. When supplying under FOI they seem more intent on blanking out the names of officials and their file references than filtering the actual content. In my case, it is because the originators did the sanitising without understanding the narrative content, or its significance. It is clear they are very nervous about what currently serving officials have done in the past, thinking it would never get out.
As for personal battles, I think each has his own area of, often considerable, experience and expertise. I am not, and never have been, aircrew. My background is one of having had to witness financial waste on an industrial scale in PE, DPA and DLO. Under FOI, I sought and obtained clear written evidence that the MoD, at the most senior levels, continue to practice and condone this. (And, as I have this under FOI, and it complements other open source information, I feel entitled to post on the subject). I sympathise enormously with our Servicemen and women who are continually fobbed off with insufficient and unsuitable kit. This thread is one of the classic examples as it contains elements of everything that is wrong with the MoD (and there is much that is right). There is funding to fit DAS/ESF. The point of many of my posts is that, far from the MoD’s pleas that they don’t get enough funding from the Treasury, it is a 10 minute job to identify hundreds of millions of waste just within my boundary of experience. And if the MoD has been told this, acknowledged it, yet refused to do anything; then they have abrogated their responsibility, avoided a legal obligation and failed in their duty of care to our troops. They’ve dug their own hole my friend.
My continued good wishes to Nigel, Chappie et al.
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Hello Dolly,
When I met AOC2 in May, he actually quoted something I had written on this thread, furthermore he was clutching several pages of the thread that had been printed off. Proof enough? When I have needed help and assistance someone has invariably come forward. My local MP, James Gray does not think there is enough money available to fit foam to all Hercules. TUC will tell you the opposite. Who would you believe?
When I met AOC2 in May, he actually quoted something I had written on this thread, furthermore he was clutching several pages of the thread that had been printed off. Proof enough? When I have needed help and assistance someone has invariably come forward. My local MP, James Gray does not think there is enough money available to fit foam to all Hercules. TUC will tell you the opposite. Who would you believe?
Last edited by nigegilb; 7th Jul 2006 at 09:25.
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We owe them, and we owe them big
With heavy heart, we down here read of the loss of 179.
At the time many of here, thought there but for the grace of God go I.
The investigations revealed that it was not fate putting out his ugly hand, but a lack understanding by those who should understand, in how easy it is to snuff out the lives of capable mean.
Well understanding that military flying, can and is dangerious, I must say that in my time with the RAAF, safety issues were taken seriously, irrespective of from where in the structure they came from.
It is by no accident that the RAAF has over 47 years of accident C130 flying, it is the dedication of the maintainers and the aircrew that this has happened. This coupled to the dedication of the top structure, to keep the risk factor to the lowest level.
We too had a stake in the loss, as one of our best navigators we gave you, and he was sadly lost.
The arguements put up by the government, fail to understand that yes there are risks in military flying, but that is not an excuse for pushing factors aside, that can and do reduce this risk.
On the back window of my car, is shown the following.
"C130 Hercules aircrew, simply the best"
We are the best, because we get the job done, irrespective of the risks involved, and the fact that or equipment may be old and tired, and often lacking.
TO LOVELY LADY Sarah, we down here are rooting for you, your courage and resolvement is second to none. We cannot understand how much it takes from you, but we do know it is very much. Your contribution to this effort we are sure, will have a big impact onto the end result.
So lucky we all were, that the latest fire occured on the ground, and we give thanks that no one was lost. Presuming that the VIP on board, may again push this program quicker.
To all who have helped push this barrow, a great effort you should be greatly proud, and give tribute to those who are no longer with us.
God bless you all
Regards
Col Tigwell
At the time many of here, thought there but for the grace of God go I.
The investigations revealed that it was not fate putting out his ugly hand, but a lack understanding by those who should understand, in how easy it is to snuff out the lives of capable mean.
Well understanding that military flying, can and is dangerious, I must say that in my time with the RAAF, safety issues were taken seriously, irrespective of from where in the structure they came from.
It is by no accident that the RAAF has over 47 years of accident C130 flying, it is the dedication of the maintainers and the aircrew that this has happened. This coupled to the dedication of the top structure, to keep the risk factor to the lowest level.
We too had a stake in the loss, as one of our best navigators we gave you, and he was sadly lost.
The arguements put up by the government, fail to understand that yes there are risks in military flying, but that is not an excuse for pushing factors aside, that can and do reduce this risk.
On the back window of my car, is shown the following.
"C130 Hercules aircrew, simply the best"
We are the best, because we get the job done, irrespective of the risks involved, and the fact that or equipment may be old and tired, and often lacking.
TO LOVELY LADY Sarah, we down here are rooting for you, your courage and resolvement is second to none. We cannot understand how much it takes from you, but we do know it is very much. Your contribution to this effort we are sure, will have a big impact onto the end result.
So lucky we all were, that the latest fire occured on the ground, and we give thanks that no one was lost. Presuming that the VIP on board, may again push this program quicker.
To all who have helped push this barrow, a great effort you should be greatly proud, and give tribute to those who are no longer with us.
God bless you all
Regards
Col Tigwell
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hello again,
Thanks for your reply Tuc, that answered quite a few questions. Being new to posting on the thread, that information has most likely been mentioned before, and i probably missed it....ha.
Nige, I understand that you may be annoyed with me, jumping to a conclusion that 'people are paranoid', that was silly on my part, and I retract it.
However, to formerflake I must say that personal battles do have a role to play here,...otherwise some posters wouldn't be here in the first place.
Don't get me wrong now,..I am not saying having a personal reason is wrong, but what i am trying to say is I have seen instances where some people have let their snakes tounge make an appearence here.
I really don't think this is the place to do so. I mean, hell, I could be provoking people now by writing this.
On the brighter side,...this thread has communicated many improtant facts and information to others, which has helped a great deal to get the big wheel moving.
I don;t want to make enemies, I want to ensure that the right moves are being made.
Thanks for your reply Tuc, that answered quite a few questions. Being new to posting on the thread, that information has most likely been mentioned before, and i probably missed it....ha.
Nige, I understand that you may be annoyed with me, jumping to a conclusion that 'people are paranoid', that was silly on my part, and I retract it.
However, to formerflake I must say that personal battles do have a role to play here,...otherwise some posters wouldn't be here in the first place.
Don't get me wrong now,..I am not saying having a personal reason is wrong, but what i am trying to say is I have seen instances where some people have let their snakes tounge make an appearence here.
I really don't think this is the place to do so. I mean, hell, I could be provoking people now by writing this.
On the brighter side,...this thread has communicated many improtant facts and information to others, which has helped a great deal to get the big wheel moving.
I don;t want to make enemies, I want to ensure that the right moves are being made.
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HD,
No offence taken. It is an unusual thread. It is not just military, Many families and friends connected to the crash read it and some contribute. Some of the postings are emotional but I am sure you understand that in the circumstances it is not that surprising. Every person deals with grief differently. What is extraordinary about the whole thing is that we have effected change. We have forced the MoD to agree to fit foam across the fleet and now they are on the back foot. On the whole it is a force for the good. I do understand some of the disagreements in the background but I don't think it is possible to get this far and keep everyone happy. The Hercules world is small. The guys on the Herc IPT and everyone at DEC are working flat out to improve safety. I know that I, amongst others, am adding to their workload but someone has to do the politics and I have no faith in our military leaders banging the table hard enough. So there you go, I am sure you will find some people who are not happy with our campaign- just shows it is working!
We have to keep at it because the moment you back off something happens. For instance today I discovered that MoD press spokesmen are saying that the first ac will get foam some time this Autumn. You see what i mean?
No offence taken. It is an unusual thread. It is not just military, Many families and friends connected to the crash read it and some contribute. Some of the postings are emotional but I am sure you understand that in the circumstances it is not that surprising. Every person deals with grief differently. What is extraordinary about the whole thing is that we have effected change. We have forced the MoD to agree to fit foam across the fleet and now they are on the back foot. On the whole it is a force for the good. I do understand some of the disagreements in the background but I don't think it is possible to get this far and keep everyone happy. The Hercules world is small. The guys on the Herc IPT and everyone at DEC are working flat out to improve safety. I know that I, amongst others, am adding to their workload but someone has to do the politics and I have no faith in our military leaders banging the table hard enough. So there you go, I am sure you will find some people who are not happy with our campaign- just shows it is working!
We have to keep at it because the moment you back off something happens. For instance today I discovered that MoD press spokesmen are saying that the first ac will get foam some time this Autumn. You see what i mean?
Last edited by nigegilb; 7th Jul 2006 at 21:54.
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guys, i can feel a letter coming on! who do i write to about the timetable for the modernisation of the hercules? please not des browne as he does like to ignore me! i think the MoD are seriously underestimating us. are they deliberately attempting to put us off, try our patience and think we are likely to give in? someone ought to tell them i have the patience of a saint, so i'm going nowhere....example i was at work today when a chap who had a nasty fall was waking from his sedation and was rather p***** off! the guys departed and i was left with this rather large chap to placate him. he had no memory and so was unable to cope. i had to go through things time after time after time despite the fact that like the MoD etc he too was hoping i would go away. admittedly the fact that i got pinched, was punched twice, kicked and narrowly missed a full blown headbutt in the space of 1-2minutes my job to stay soothing was made all the more difficult! the moral is though that despite heavy handed tatics, i stayed the course and achieved my goal. i'm hoping that the MoD will not resort to such tactics and leave it at a war of words! there is no way that i'm letting the delay go unanswered. it is not enough that we are told that there is a delay and that's it. do not keep putting the date back each time.
will it be ready in september nige or is it just being started then?
anyway, i'm going to take my sore sorry self off to bed and think what to do. take care.
will it be ready in september nige or is it just being started then?
anyway, i'm going to take my sore sorry self off to bed and think what to do. take care.
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Loss of XV206
I have been looking at the photos of the demise of XV206, not a preety picture, and very little information.
The concess is that the airplane was hit by small arms fire, in the wing area of no 2 engine. In the photo that i am looking at, the engine is already shut down, and the prop feathered. At that moment all engines have been shut down, but not by using the fire handles. Nor has anyone started to exit the aircraft.
Going by the other photos, the fire must have spread quickly, and we were very lucky there were no injuries.
The story given out at the time the photos came to light, was that one of the L/H main wheels had exploded on landing, and the debri had punctured the fuel tanks, and number 2 engine had started the fire.
I doubt this is really the situation, and it is more likely that small arms fire started the fuel leak and fire, and could have puctured one of the main wheels. If that is the case then it is unlikely that a flat tyre would have been the cause of the fire. I have had two situations myself, where we landed with a flat tyre, and other than a lot of noise, then no other problems were encountered, and the tyre and wheel stayed complete.
However this does appear, that foam would have maybe saved this airplane, being that it might have been feeling a bit sorry for itself.
There is another issue, which does not appear to have been discussed, and I have read all the posting.
My understanding is that RAF uses AVTUR fuel, where as in many locations the fuel does not come from a RAF source. In this case the fuel could be JP4 or JP8. Again my understanding, and I stand to be corrected, but we were always taught that the flash point of the JP fuels was different to AVTUR, and so needed to be treated with respect.
If this is in fact correct, would this not be another reason for foam today.
With ever best wish for your program.
Regards
Col Tigwell
Australia
The concess is that the airplane was hit by small arms fire, in the wing area of no 2 engine. In the photo that i am looking at, the engine is already shut down, and the prop feathered. At that moment all engines have been shut down, but not by using the fire handles. Nor has anyone started to exit the aircraft.
Going by the other photos, the fire must have spread quickly, and we were very lucky there were no injuries.
The story given out at the time the photos came to light, was that one of the L/H main wheels had exploded on landing, and the debri had punctured the fuel tanks, and number 2 engine had started the fire.
I doubt this is really the situation, and it is more likely that small arms fire started the fuel leak and fire, and could have puctured one of the main wheels. If that is the case then it is unlikely that a flat tyre would have been the cause of the fire. I have had two situations myself, where we landed with a flat tyre, and other than a lot of noise, then no other problems were encountered, and the tyre and wheel stayed complete.
However this does appear, that foam would have maybe saved this airplane, being that it might have been feeling a bit sorry for itself.
There is another issue, which does not appear to have been discussed, and I have read all the posting.
My understanding is that RAF uses AVTUR fuel, where as in many locations the fuel does not come from a RAF source. In this case the fuel could be JP4 or JP8. Again my understanding, and I stand to be corrected, but we were always taught that the flash point of the JP fuels was different to AVTUR, and so needed to be treated with respect.
If this is in fact correct, would this not be another reason for foam today.
With ever best wish for your program.
Regards
Col Tigwell
Australia
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
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Jet fuels
So the previous post's chart, clearly shows that JP4 is a mixture of Jet fuel and gasoline.
As the RAF cannot always pick up the desired fuel, this now becomes another factor in the fuel risk.
Regards
Col Tigwell
As the RAF cannot always pick up the desired fuel, this now becomes another factor in the fuel risk.
Regards
Col Tigwell
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 312
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Foam why the mystery
I put the feelers out in the USA and Australia.
Putting foam into the aircraft, is no big deal. Any where a C130 can have a tank inspection, the job can be done. I do not know whether the RAF does its own tank inspections, but the RAAF does.
It required all covers and bracing off the tanks, just as you would when doing a normal tank inspection.
The foam normally comes precut, but there is no reason why it could not be cut at unit level. Provided the light situation is controlled. Some triming is neccesary with the precut sections, and this is done with a glorified bread knife.
All internals are done, as are the externals.
Some fuel capacity is lost, I beieve that it is 15%, but I could be corrected on that.
The fuel filters need to inspected after install.
The time required to do the task, including the externals, with a team who are up to speed, 160 man hours. The task lends itself to all tanks being done at the same time.
The foam if not exposed to sunlight, appears to have a very long life, I have been quoted that at eight year inspection, the foam was so good, it could be reused.
The RAAF normally did this task when the tanks were open, but did do some outside that time frame.
Now understanding that the RAF is strapped for staff, perhaps it cannot all be done at unit level. I would have thought that retired RAF technicans could be brought back to do the task. Depending on how many shifts were worked, the aircraft could be turned around in short time.
This not really in airframe tasks, a big job, nor material wise an expensive task, but it remains to be seen how much priority the job gets from a tasking point of view.
Regards
Col Tigwell
Putting foam into the aircraft, is no big deal. Any where a C130 can have a tank inspection, the job can be done. I do not know whether the RAF does its own tank inspections, but the RAAF does.
It required all covers and bracing off the tanks, just as you would when doing a normal tank inspection.
The foam normally comes precut, but there is no reason why it could not be cut at unit level. Provided the light situation is controlled. Some triming is neccesary with the precut sections, and this is done with a glorified bread knife.
All internals are done, as are the externals.
Some fuel capacity is lost, I beieve that it is 15%, but I could be corrected on that.
The fuel filters need to inspected after install.
The time required to do the task, including the externals, with a team who are up to speed, 160 man hours. The task lends itself to all tanks being done at the same time.
The foam if not exposed to sunlight, appears to have a very long life, I have been quoted that at eight year inspection, the foam was so good, it could be reused.
The RAAF normally did this task when the tanks were open, but did do some outside that time frame.
Now understanding that the RAF is strapped for staff, perhaps it cannot all be done at unit level. I would have thought that retired RAF technicans could be brought back to do the task. Depending on how many shifts were worked, the aircraft could be turned around in short time.
This not really in airframe tasks, a big job, nor material wise an expensive task, but it remains to be seen how much priority the job gets from a tasking point of view.
Regards
Col Tigwell