Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety

[chappie]

thnaks nige for posting the article on the page. i have the article in my possession and it makes for some powerful reading. yes, it's true that the MoD seem to want only to put obstacles in our quest for the truth. my answer to that is whay are they so incessant in making it difficult? that raises questions, not put them to rest. one of the other thing that was flagged up by the BoI was not only the communication breakdown, the lack of ESF but also low level daylight flying. i remember being told that it no longer occured, or if was necessary it was a rarity. why, do i not believe them? it beggars belief that there is this impression that it was wished that we would give up and go away. does no one understand that it's not the case that you lose someone you love so so much you will just give up accept the info given and just go away? any one who loses a cherished love will always want the truth. this is no substitute for grief, no substitute for them in your life by keeping them alive, this is about the fact that questions willl always arise from info that you are told and you want answers. the fight begins when you don't get answers. i would ask this. why don't we get answers? in time, when the inquest is out there will be a sky interview that i have done. yes, that means that this will go out and be seen by the world. it's hard when you feel like a fool crying on camera, hopeful;ly they won't show it, but if they do then so be it. we are not going to accept the fact that there will be doors shut in our face. no matter what it takes the truth will out.

i have since found out i'm pregnant, but i will not let that stop me in the quest for protection of the troops. i will not turn my back on you. i promise i will do my best, still. downing street here i come! if i disappear for a bit then that will be circumstances beyond my control, but i will come back. i'm waiting to hear of the dates i can post the petition. will let you know. i will ensure that i have the media with me. we will keep this in the public mind. stay safe.

[kam]

Congratulations, Chappie!

[Chugalug2]

Chappie, heartfelt congratulations from me as well. How proud your child will be of a fantastic mother who fought to make the Hercules safer, and prevailed! Stay strong and take care of yourselves!

[chappie]

not again

this is a message to ALL government and military leaders that read this page from afar. if the plane that has crashed in afghanistan today is a hercules then you had better get ready for battle. i always said it will happen again, yet you seeem not to care.

i know it's pathetic and just pain that is talking right now, along with pregnancy hormones, but this will not go passed untouched. you always think that you are untouchable, only as you have never had to feel the pain i feel right now. does anyone have any idea how raw, and how scared i feel right now? i'm sorry for my rant but i'm stuck at work and can't do anything about finding out and it might as well be the first time i found ut about bob's plane. i need to vent my feelings on a page i know people will understand,as opposed to letting it get the better of me while caring for my patients. this is not about me, please let my thoughts be with everyone touched by the loss of a colleague.

the petition is having ne last push this weekend at an airshow, then downing street here i come, bump in tow!

[herkman]

The airplane involved is a MR2 Nimrod, if my source is correct.

Very sad all on board are gone. Whilst I have no detials, the crash is attributed to technical reasons.

I guess the truth will come out in due course.

Our hearts go out to those who now have to mourn.

Col Tigwell

[herkman]

My understanding the airplane involved was a MR2 Nimrod.

Apparently all on board are lost.

Techical problems are listed as the cause.

Our hearts go out to all who are left to mourn.

Col Tigwell

[betty_boo_x]

little_bee_eater brought back to pprune by sad news

hi kam et al,

I'm using the ID that I set up for the big fella in 2004 when he was posting his various naughty rants and wished to remain anonymous. Betty Boo is female, small and cute - a suitable opposite we thought! He still makes me smile.

I am very sadened to hear of another tragic loss and my heart goes out - again and again

boo x

[nigegilb]

So much bad news around at the moment, thought it was appropriate to post some good news.

First Herc has arrived at Lyneham complete with foam! OK there are a few technical probs which I am sure are frustrating for those concerned, but I am sure they will be overcome. Must be a learning process for everyone involved. Furthermore, I am satisfied that every single J Herc that needs foam will get it! This is fantastic news considering not a single J was slated for foam at the beginning of the year. Big thank you for everyone involved. Would also like to publically thank AOC 2 for agreeing to see me in May. I know we have caused a few headaches, but I am sure you agree, that as the fighting intensifies in Afg, it is absolutely right that our aircraft and people are given the highest levels of protection.

[flipster]

Nige,

If that is true, then 'hip, hip, hooray'.

However, the jury is still 'out' on this case. Certainly, I wouldn't trust the MoD too much - you know how budgetary constraints and the 'need to save a squllion £££s by tomorrow' often cut projects off at the knees. Nonetheless, perhaps as the potential for 'corporate manslaughter' charges still hang over the top politicians, maybe they will just get on with this mod pdq?? Of course, we still have to get the right ac out to theatre and any probs need to be ironed out asap. Thankfully, I can't see this being a major problem, as the USAF have been doing the foam-thing for years and RAAF for a fair while, too.

Fortunately, this time, the higher levels of 2 Gp and MoD (led by AOC 2 Gp, perhaps?) appear to have matched the comittment and integrity of their subordinates trying to provide crews with the correct equipment to go to war. The only sad part is that retired officers and families had to shame them into it. However, as they say, 'a Kill's a Kill'!

I have yet to hear 'owt' back from the Def Comm but, I sadly suspect, they may be quite busy with Nimrod-related problems at the moment. I will wait to see what they say before I start jumping for joy but certainly I am feeling a little better after the few things I have heard recently.

Well done M8

Flip

[nigegilb]

I understand your scepticism Flip. I have difficulty believing anything that the MoD spinners push out. I do, however, believe that this argument is won and that Ministers are worried. Unbelievably, I have been told that the Herc pitched up at Lyneham with fuel leaks. I don't know who is responsible for supervision at Marshalls but I understand that the situation has gone all the way up the chain to Ministerial level. I expect the next one to come off the line to be perfect. Every day wasted places a crew in jeopardy. As for the Ministers, well Mr Watson resigned yesterday over difficulty with the PMs timetable. He should be ashamed of himself, resigning at a time when so many troops are being killed and seriously injured in Iraq and Afg. I agree with you, AOC 2 and the guys/girls in the chain have worked hard and shown great integrity to make it happen. Pity we don't see that same quality in others.

[Chugalug2]

Nige, fantastic news that we have all been waiting for! One is tempted to quote WC's words about beginnings and ends, but it would be more realistic to watch out for the fat lady! This government and its politicised civil service has no moral compass at all, and will sweep this program quietly aside, given half a chance and another good day to bury bad news! In short this campaign must keep up its momentum until ALL the Herc fleet is fully protected with ESF or sold off. Honeyed words, solemn assurances, firm intentions are worthless, the only things that count are ESF protected airframes on the ramp. All that aside we wouldn't be here even, if it wasn't for the dedication and determination of all involved, and in particular yourself, so congratulations and well done!

[chappie]

well that is great news BUT and there is a BUT i don't feel this arguement is won UNTIL ALL HERCULES ARE PROTECTED. bump and me are off to downing street with this pettion and i will not rest until all hercules are protected. i mean who is going to explain it to the family of the crew unlucky enough to be on the unprotected plane that they were just unlucky.

[herkman]

I refer to my previos post, where I stated the hours to put in foam, could be increased if the tank sealant was found to be lacking.

I cannot believe that a QA schedule would allow this to happen, because it means removing the foam, wrapping it in black plastic, and the storing it in a dark area.

What are Marshalls thinking?

Regards

Col Tigwell

[chappie]

i take i that marshalls are sorting out the problem of the fuel leaks, thus causing a delay to the next plane to be fitted with the foam. at this rate the fitting of foam is going to take years and years. we must continue to ensure the mod programme continues as the protection of all troops is of paramount importance to me. i think of you all daily who fly in thetre without protection and hope that my prayers are enough to keep you safe. when this little blighter stops me from being so so sick i will pick up the gauntlet. i may be out of the frame but you are not forgotten.

[John Blakeley]

C130 tank sealant

For what its worth the story I heard was that MOD went against Marshall's advice and insisted on removal of all the old sealant before fitting foam - I suggest that where you have a sealed tank that is not leaking this is not a good thing to do - getting the sealant to work again can be a long job - remember Lightnings! You may be blaming the wrong people.

JB

[chappie]

thanks for that john.i do hope, however, that you realise there is no way that i or alot of others would know that info so naturally you would look to question the workmanship. again, i am far from suprised that the MoD cannot just let the fitting go ahead without any interruption from themselves. is this a delaying tactic on their behalf i wonder. is it a case that they think if the plane takes a long time that people will forget and the heat will off and the need for funding the entire programme can be re directed. i do hope they have not been as niave as that, as there is no way that we will forget. the families will not forget, the colleagues and the hercules RAF community will not forget. this will not resolve overnight but this is going on too long. we are twenty months post XV179 yet there is not one plane operational with foam.

there is all sorts of hearsay going round. if anyone can help verify how many planes will be fitted it would be helpful to hear.
thankyou all for your support and guidance through this.

[nigegilb]

Chappie,
This is what the Defence Committee think about the situation. This report dated 10 Aug 06;

74. "We note that the safety of C-130 Hercules remains an issue of concern to aircrew in theatre. While we welcome the decision to fit Explosion Suppressant Foam to some Hercules, we believe that it should be fitted to all Hercules in operational theatres. We are alarmed by the suggestion that the MoD might not be fitting protective systems because of the impact on other priorities. The protection of our Armed Forces should be given the highest priority."

I understand that the Herc that pitched up recently is fixed. As ever Col Tigwell and JB were on the mark. In many ways the actual final total is not as important as the speed, or lack of, with which the Hercs are getting the foam. Situation in Afg is all out war. More reason for not sending in the boys without adequate protection, the favourite phrase of the Govt. Fingers crossed, yet again.

[500days2do]

Again the waiting game is being played !
I wonder if the delay is due to decisions pending which may deal the final blow to the C130K....

Any thoughts ???

5d2d

[chappie]

did anyone see the channel four news tonight? it would be great to hear your thoughts as to what you think the impact of the report would be. well done nige! hopefully this will put a rocket up the arse of those responsible for sorting out the planes. it is of such importance that the pressure is maintained. i don't think the MoD should continue to drag their feet over this important issue and should treat the aircrew with the respect they deserve so can they please have the balls to be interviewed and stop putting out old rehashed statements that have been trotted out time and time again....stop insulting the intelligence of the aircrew and the british public.let the fun begin!

[flipster]

See here

http://www.channel4.com/news/special...ge.jsp?id=3307

It was a very good report, with plenty of straight facts that the MoD will be hard pushed to deny. The Crest Foam demo was rather spectacular - I think we may have seen that before somewhere!?

Well done to all involved with the prog.

However, it really is a shame (if somewhat predictable) that the MoD couldn't be bothered to get someone to front-up (nay, man-up). However, this is indicative that they know they are on a very sticky wicket. All the MoD can do now is to maintain the same boring rhetoric and keep their fingers crossed that the sqns can muddle-on through the next few months - at least, until all long-term ac are fitted with ESF.

To anyone that says that crews do not want ESF, I say "b0llox"!!!! I have yet to hear ANY crew-member say that they would not want ESF fitted. Yes, there are other things that would be helpful but ESF is a base-line fit for the USAF and RAAF, what makes us so much smarter than their acculmulated experience?

The sad reality is that now, everyone from CAS downwards is stuck between a rock and a hard place. We have troops on the ground and they need the support, so pulling out the Hercs to fit them with ESF is not really a option (this fit should have been done long ago, of course).

In fact, this predicament has parallels with the 'dumb' Hercs AFG in 2001. Then as now, risks had to be taken to support the british tommy who is in a heck of a worse situation than our crews - BUT that does not absolve the MoD from supporting ALL the frontline forces.

I had rather hoped that the 'lessons' we 'identified' in 2001/2 had been 'learnt' rather than 'ignored'. Regrettably, I fear that is not the case and the sqns and crews are in exactly the same 'risk-assessment' cycle, 4 years on. The fact that our government has not heeded warnings of over-stretch is, I'm afraid, tanatmount to negligence and I suspect that the politicians who have potential corporate manslaughter charges against their names, should remain very much concerned. Incredible as it may seem, the Hercules force is being reduced still further; this this wise??

Furthermore, the eventual fitting of ESF gives credence to the view that, in many people's opinion, the crew of 179 was let down by the system and the MoD is duty-bound to give the families such finnancial support that is 'above and beyond' the normal pension/death in service benefits etc.

Nonetheless, I, for one, am glad that undertakings to fit ESF to all Hercs are now in place but the next problem is what to do about all the other threats that our Herc crews face. What about all our other ac? Certainly, there are a number of improvements to current DASs that would really help - now is the time to fund these. Perhaps the 'top kneddies' will now listen to the lower echelons of the Gps - to those Electronic Warfare specialists and 'subject matter experts' who have recent front-line experience and find the funding - kidnapping Gordon Brown would be a good start!!