Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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Nige
Spot on!
I've just been on Beeb Wiltshire but sadly, I hadn't seen Ainsworth's bit. Mind you I might have laid into him and said something I later regretted! It is no wonder the Coroner is a bit miffed!
I welcome Ainsworh's admission of guilt over ESF and the whole inquest has underlined the importance of your and Chappie's campaign to pressurize the MoD into fleet-wide embodiment. You have acheived so much, well done.
However, I am spitting feathers at Ainsworths comments over the systemic failures - does he think that we are stupid? Firstly, his comments are crass and insensitive but there is nothing new in that - he did the same after the Nimrod verdict. Secondly, how can he explain away the obvious failings of communication, direction and decision-making between DEC, the IPT, the designers, DSTL and the user! The system that is meant to ensure airworthness and fitness-for-purpose is broken - no-one knows who's responsibility it is let alone which regulations to implement! This cannot go on, otherwise we will have to go through this whole thing again, as the MoD minister has apparently learnt nothing.
This is the time that we need top-level political impetus - Mr Hutton, as a new Def Sec has inherited a bag of nails, caused by years of neglect and a death by a thousand cuts, presided over by people like Ainsworth. Mr Hutton now has the opportunity to grasp the nettle and get to the root cause of tragedies like the Herc and the Nimrod and in so doing, accomplish all the Coroner's recommendations.
I would argue he should start, in the first, by ensuring the A400M comes into service properly protected as outlined above.
As importantly, however, Mr Hutton should also seek to reform the defence procurement and airworthiness/FFP process. This system was once the best in the world but is now a shadow of its former self. As a result, our servicemen go to war with equipment more suited to Salisbury Plain than Helmand Province! This is unacceptable and cannot continue. There needs to be a full and independent review of this system......NOW!
Our servicemen and women go to war on our behalf and under the orders of our politicians. The very least we can expect is that those people who risk their lives willingly for us are given protection that makes their task easier and are not given equipmentnt that, effectively, does the enemy's job for him!!!!
As Chappie said - we are watching, the world is watching for a mature response from the MoD. Unfortunately, Mr Aisworth fell short.
Flip
On a point of note, I am sure that what the Coroner was intimating by using the term 'Combat Aircraft' was:
all aircraft that are (or could be) flown in an operational theatre, which would include all transport, maritime, C3 and rotary assets and not just FJ!
or words to that effect.
If the MoD think that they can use terminology to hide behind, then they should think again.
Spot on!
I've just been on Beeb Wiltshire but sadly, I hadn't seen Ainsworth's bit. Mind you I might have laid into him and said something I later regretted! It is no wonder the Coroner is a bit miffed!
I welcome Ainsworh's admission of guilt over ESF and the whole inquest has underlined the importance of your and Chappie's campaign to pressurize the MoD into fleet-wide embodiment. You have acheived so much, well done.
However, I am spitting feathers at Ainsworths comments over the systemic failures - does he think that we are stupid? Firstly, his comments are crass and insensitive but there is nothing new in that - he did the same after the Nimrod verdict. Secondly, how can he explain away the obvious failings of communication, direction and decision-making between DEC, the IPT, the designers, DSTL and the user! The system that is meant to ensure airworthness and fitness-for-purpose is broken - no-one knows who's responsibility it is let alone which regulations to implement! This cannot go on, otherwise we will have to go through this whole thing again, as the MoD minister has apparently learnt nothing.
This is the time that we need top-level political impetus - Mr Hutton, as a new Def Sec has inherited a bag of nails, caused by years of neglect and a death by a thousand cuts, presided over by people like Ainsworth. Mr Hutton now has the opportunity to grasp the nettle and get to the root cause of tragedies like the Herc and the Nimrod and in so doing, accomplish all the Coroner's recommendations.
I would argue he should start, in the first, by ensuring the A400M comes into service properly protected as outlined above.
As importantly, however, Mr Hutton should also seek to reform the defence procurement and airworthiness/FFP process. This system was once the best in the world but is now a shadow of its former self. As a result, our servicemen go to war with equipment more suited to Salisbury Plain than Helmand Province! This is unacceptable and cannot continue. There needs to be a full and independent review of this system......NOW!
Our servicemen and women go to war on our behalf and under the orders of our politicians. The very least we can expect is that those people who risk their lives willingly for us are given protection that makes their task easier and are not given equipmentnt that, effectively, does the enemy's job for him!!!!
As Chappie said - we are watching, the world is watching for a mature response from the MoD. Unfortunately, Mr Aisworth fell short.
Flip
On a point of note, I am sure that what the Coroner was intimating by using the term 'Combat Aircraft' was:
all aircraft that are (or could be) flown in an operational theatre, which would include all transport, maritime, C3 and rotary assets and not just FJ!
or words to that effect.
If the MoD think that they can use terminology to hide behind, then they should think again.
flipster:
I think that bitter experience must lead us to expect just that. This is a leopard with very permanent spots. The problem for them is not implementing Mr Masters findings, but how to go about not doing so. Should they just front it out, a la their infamous Mull findings, or go through the motions of paying lip service but doing, and spending, as little as possible? This beast needs putting down, it has betrayed our Armed Forces and the Nation. A complete reorganisation is required and as everyone will know ad nauseum my solution, for the problems that are the preoccupation of this thread, is to reorganise them well away from the MOD and its baleful influences. In this business time is lives rather than money. Too many of the former have already been wasted. We need an independent MAA asap.
If the MoD think that they can use terminology to hide behind, then they should think again.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 23rd Oct 2008 at 10:41.
Nige, you’re a bad boy! The Coroner’s Rule 43 recommendations were not intended for publication in that form - they were for your personal use! My account of them was dashed off at the end of a very long and stressful day, and they were not in tidy enough shape for general publication.
However, now that they’re out there, they may as well stay..... But I would ask that PPRuNErs take note of the caveat
Indeed, there are a couple of things about them that may need clarifying.
Rule 43 (for those of us non-legal-eagles)
The Coroner explained it thus: (it’s a new (well, amended) rule this summer) ’Where a coroner has evidence that suggests a risk of future death, and believes that action should be taken to prevent a recurrence or to reduce the risk, the coroner may make a report to an appropriate person who may take action. That could include the Lord Chancellor.’ Mr Coroner Masters went on to say he will send his Rule 43 recommendations in a letter to the Minister for the Armed Forces. I gather that won’t happen for a week or so.
Flip - on the question of ‘combat aircraft’, I think you’re right when you say that the coroner probably meant something along the lines of your suggestion.
I have passed on to the coroner’s investigating officer, Jerry Luckett, a reminder that when the RAF uses the phrase ‘combat aircraft’, that specifically excludes transport aircraft and the like. He has promised to clarify that for the coroner.
Incidentally, Jerry is out of a job, as of yesterday, but he leaves with words of high praise from the coroner ringing in his ears. He tells me that he believes the appointment of a Coroner’s Investigator was a first. I suspect it won’t be the last. Jerry is a retired police superintendent, btw.
If anyone needs any clarification of my version of the coroner’s Rule 43 recommendations,let me know.
airsound
PS Lovely pic of Chappie and Wootton Lynestoke Staish in some of the papers today. Stars, both. eg:
Failed by the Forces: Ten heroes killed RAF Hercules could have been saved by fuel 'safety feature', says coroner | Mail Online
However, now that they’re out there, they may as well stay..... But I would ask that PPRuNErs take note of the caveat
Notes taken verbatim - may not be 100%
Rule 43 (for those of us non-legal-eagles)
The Coroner explained it thus: (it’s a new (well, amended) rule this summer) ’Where a coroner has evidence that suggests a risk of future death, and believes that action should be taken to prevent a recurrence or to reduce the risk, the coroner may make a report to an appropriate person who may take action. That could include the Lord Chancellor.’ Mr Coroner Masters went on to say he will send his Rule 43 recommendations in a letter to the Minister for the Armed Forces. I gather that won’t happen for a week or so.
Flip - on the question of ‘combat aircraft’, I think you’re right when you say that the coroner probably meant something along the lines of your suggestion.
I have passed on to the coroner’s investigating officer, Jerry Luckett, a reminder that when the RAF uses the phrase ‘combat aircraft’, that specifically excludes transport aircraft and the like. He has promised to clarify that for the coroner.
Incidentally, Jerry is out of a job, as of yesterday, but he leaves with words of high praise from the coroner ringing in his ears. He tells me that he believes the appointment of a Coroner’s Investigator was a first. I suspect it won’t be the last. Jerry is a retired police superintendent, btw.
If anyone needs any clarification of my version of the coroner’s Rule 43 recommendations,let me know.
airsound
PS Lovely pic of Chappie and Wootton Lynestoke Staish in some of the papers today. Stars, both. eg:
Failed by the Forces: Ten heroes killed RAF Hercules could have been saved by fuel 'safety feature', says coroner | Mail Online
Last edited by airsound; 23rd Oct 2008 at 11:08. Reason: added a PS
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The coroner's conclusions regarding the ESF and int issues are clear enough and welcome, but I am unclear as to why so many documents vanished. I served at High Wycombe from 2000 to 2003 and cannot recall any new documentation system that required a mass shredding. In fact, highest on the agenda was the construction of the new building on the ops site (when the CinC wasn't pondering the weighty issue of Mess dress
). As I recall, files were classified and, when full, they were PA'd as normal. I bet any documents relating to details of capability or operational requirements would be at least Confidential. Who signed off the destruction certificates? Call me paranoid, but I sense a file cull to save embarrassment. 2 Gp staff officers and AWC officers from the period should be hauled in front of someone and made to explain. Perhaps the registry clerks know what was going on. I think the lesson is in future - if you raise such an issue - keep your own paper trail.
As for Ainsworth - he simply needs a Boot, Combat Assault (or whatever they are called now) applied to the back of the neck until he stops breathing. Then he may stop wriggling and lying.
). As I recall, files were classified and, when full, they were PA'd as normal. I bet any documents relating to details of capability or operational requirements would be at least Confidential. Who signed off the destruction certificates? Call me paranoid, but I sense a file cull to save embarrassment. 2 Gp staff officers and AWC officers from the period should be hauled in front of someone and made to explain. Perhaps the registry clerks know what was going on. I think the lesson is in future - if you raise such an issue - keep your own paper trail. As for Ainsworth - he simply needs a Boot, Combat Assault (or whatever they are called now) applied to the back of the neck until he stops breathing. Then he may stop wriggling and lying.
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Sorry Airsound, your notes of the rule 43 were placed on the thread for all to see as part of a homespun "counter-spin" operation against Ainsworth. I was present at the Nimrod Inquest when word came that he had immediately discounted the verdict of Coroner Walker. I saw the reaction of the families there was no way that that man was going to dismiss 3 years of work and 10 deaths in his usual hopeless and offensive way. I didn't see the intervies, I shouldn't have worried it has been described as, Ainsworth came across as an even bigger fool, if that is possible. Jon Snow had him for toilet paper.
What happened with XV179 is clear for anyone with a brain to see. A total breakdown of air worthiness regulations in the same ilk as the Nimrod tragedy. The RAF just doesn't understand the procedures for ensuring an aircraft is fit to go to war.
JTD mentions shredding. Why would anyone want to have destroyed those TAT documents? I have absolutely no idea. The MoD nearly got away with it, but for the recess this Inquest could have stalled at Station Level. Instead we have a formal apology from RAF/MoD something I called for at the very beginning in 2006.
One comment I would like to add on the general destruction of documents crucial to the maintenance of the airworthiness procedure. An engineer was telling me the other day that when he was moved from London to Abbey Wood he was told he would have only have 1 filing cabinet instead of the 8 (EIGHT) he had in his current office. It was a matter of lack of space. So he had to get rid of the vasy majority of paperwork. He was smart with how he went about this process. Careful to maintain corporate memory. However some of the engineers stayed in London, their jobs taken by others. These "others" were then presented with something of a blank canvas, one filing cabinet and a black hole of information.
Many files were archived but the personnel involved in archiving became overwhelmed with work. Archive Reviews had traditionally been held every 10 years but shortly after the Abbey Wood move this time period was reduced to 10 (Ten) months. And so the destruction of airworthiness materiel began in earnest. All those requests for foam dated back to the Falklands went into the shredder. Commanders' ability to learn the lessons of those gone before, vanished.
And then, in the case of Hercules we learned an old lesson, that fuel tanks explode.
Worrying still further, the policy on electronic recommendations, destroyed after just 5 years, inside the time frame of Major Servicing for Herc "K".
I think there is a better way of doing this. Rather than post here on pprune and campaign in public on very sensitive matters, it has been suggested that we should extend an olive branch.
I am going to consider with my main advisers and fellow campaigners what the best way forward is. I know the MoD monitors this site, whole pages of pprune were run off for briefing the MoD team at the Inquest.
Enough to say we remain open minded about another way of doing this.
What happened with XV179 is clear for anyone with a brain to see. A total breakdown of air worthiness regulations in the same ilk as the Nimrod tragedy. The RAF just doesn't understand the procedures for ensuring an aircraft is fit to go to war.
JTD mentions shredding. Why would anyone want to have destroyed those TAT documents? I have absolutely no idea. The MoD nearly got away with it, but for the recess this Inquest could have stalled at Station Level. Instead we have a formal apology from RAF/MoD something I called for at the very beginning in 2006.
One comment I would like to add on the general destruction of documents crucial to the maintenance of the airworthiness procedure. An engineer was telling me the other day that when he was moved from London to Abbey Wood he was told he would have only have 1 filing cabinet instead of the 8 (EIGHT) he had in his current office. It was a matter of lack of space. So he had to get rid of the vasy majority of paperwork. He was smart with how he went about this process. Careful to maintain corporate memory. However some of the engineers stayed in London, their jobs taken by others. These "others" were then presented with something of a blank canvas, one filing cabinet and a black hole of information.
Many files were archived but the personnel involved in archiving became overwhelmed with work. Archive Reviews had traditionally been held every 10 years but shortly after the Abbey Wood move this time period was reduced to 10 (Ten) months. And so the destruction of airworthiness materiel began in earnest. All those requests for foam dated back to the Falklands went into the shredder. Commanders' ability to learn the lessons of those gone before, vanished.
And then, in the case of Hercules we learned an old lesson, that fuel tanks explode.
Worrying still further, the policy on electronic recommendations, destroyed after just 5 years, inside the time frame of Major Servicing for Herc "K".
I think there is a better way of doing this. Rather than post here on pprune and campaign in public on very sensitive matters, it has been suggested that we should extend an olive branch.
I am going to consider with my main advisers and fellow campaigners what the best way forward is. I know the MoD monitors this site, whole pages of pprune were run off for briefing the MoD team at the Inquest.
Enough to say we remain open minded about another way of doing this.
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Nige without your tireless efforts and those of Sarah Chapman (chappie) I am sure the coroner would not have known about a lot of what went on re ESF. I was there when you gave evidence and the coroner thanked you for all the help you had been. You should both be proud of what you have done for all those that fly and travel in Hercules.
Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Defence Policy and Business | RAF "determined to learn the lessons" of Hercules XV179
Typically, MoD are trying to contain the damage. Ainsworth, that blundering fool of a jobsworth, is trying desperately to give the impression this is an isolated case, whereas a 2 year old can see that it is entirely linked to Nimrod, Mull, Tornado and others. As I said, just different paragraphs of the same chapters in the Regs that haven't been implemented properly.
The above statements on the MoD site compound this by inferring the problem is confined to the RAF, and dates back only to 2002 (the "1st" TAT report). Arrant nonsense. It completely ignores the MoD's 1982 specification on foam (which MUST have been preceded by something similar to the TAT reports to underpin the requirement to prepare a spec) and the fact that, if the 2002 report was the first one on the subject, by definition the system hasn't been working for decades.
If you look at the recommendations (even in Airsound's shorthand form) the "RAF" cannot implement them without the buy-in of DE&S, DEC and a gaggle of mandarins. But these are precisely the people who, in the past few weeks, have stepped back into the shadows and hung 2Gp out to dry. Do you really think they'll step forward again and openly sign up to a Customer Supplier Agreement that says "OK, we promise to meet our existing Terms of Reference, and in doing so satisfy the Coroner's recommendations". Dream on.
In practice, there will need to be a cull. The names of the main protagonists from the past are well known, and most are retired. Their coat tail huggers, teaboys and bagmen are still in post. Some are easily identified – they form the audit trail of the letters and statements issued by the likes of Ingram, Moonie and Ainsworth over the last few years. Some are harmless fools who have never knowingly had an original thought. Others are dangerous and cynical. Like the ####### who, in an attempt to hide his abrogation of duty of care, engaged a consultant to create a 2nd risk register omitting embarrassing MoD risks which adversely affected airworthiness and safety. And then had a 3rd one created to further blur the audit trail. Why, you ask, can I say this? Because Mins(AF) have quite happily (but probably inadvertently) placed in writing, to my MP, that they see nothing wrong in this. But this is precisely the blurring and destruction of the audit trail that the Coroner has lambasted the MoD for this week.
Again, sorry to repeat myself but, like ACM Loader’s statements in the Nimrod BoI, what Mr Masters said is not a revelation, but a reiteration of common knowledge and previous rulings.
Typically, MoD are trying to contain the damage. Ainsworth, that blundering fool of a jobsworth, is trying desperately to give the impression this is an isolated case, whereas a 2 year old can see that it is entirely linked to Nimrod, Mull, Tornado and others. As I said, just different paragraphs of the same chapters in the Regs that haven't been implemented properly.
The above statements on the MoD site compound this by inferring the problem is confined to the RAF, and dates back only to 2002 (the "1st" TAT report). Arrant nonsense. It completely ignores the MoD's 1982 specification on foam (which MUST have been preceded by something similar to the TAT reports to underpin the requirement to prepare a spec) and the fact that, if the 2002 report was the first one on the subject, by definition the system hasn't been working for decades.
If you look at the recommendations (even in Airsound's shorthand form) the "RAF" cannot implement them without the buy-in of DE&S, DEC and a gaggle of mandarins. But these are precisely the people who, in the past few weeks, have stepped back into the shadows and hung 2Gp out to dry. Do you really think they'll step forward again and openly sign up to a Customer Supplier Agreement that says "OK, we promise to meet our existing Terms of Reference, and in doing so satisfy the Coroner's recommendations". Dream on.
In practice, there will need to be a cull. The names of the main protagonists from the past are well known, and most are retired. Their coat tail huggers, teaboys and bagmen are still in post. Some are easily identified – they form the audit trail of the letters and statements issued by the likes of Ingram, Moonie and Ainsworth over the last few years. Some are harmless fools who have never knowingly had an original thought. Others are dangerous and cynical. Like the ####### who, in an attempt to hide his abrogation of duty of care, engaged a consultant to create a 2nd risk register omitting embarrassing MoD risks which adversely affected airworthiness and safety. And then had a 3rd one created to further blur the audit trail. Why, you ask, can I say this? Because Mins(AF) have quite happily (but probably inadvertently) placed in writing, to my MP, that they see nothing wrong in this. But this is precisely the blurring and destruction of the audit trail that the Coroner has lambasted the MoD for this week.
Again, sorry to repeat myself but, like ACM Loader’s statements in the Nimrod BoI, what Mr Masters said is not a revelation, but a reiteration of common knowledge and previous rulings.
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thank you each and everyone of you.
i'll not lie, i'm ashamed to say i lost my dignity and cried. there are no words to follow....
i'll do my best by each and every one of you and yours. i will do my best not to fail you. i will not take the words spoken from a TV studio or the comfort of 2 Grp as an apology. you failed our boys and us. you couldn't look me or others in the eyes and apologise. your words are meaningless, empty and late. more importantly your heartless attempts fail each and every person in, or wanting in, to the armed forces, one of our finest institutions.
there are no words to describe my pain.
worst of all though you live the reality and fear as i once did. i know that worry.
i hope i haven't nor will i fail you.
keep the faith.
i'll not lie, i'm ashamed to say i lost my dignity and cried. there are no words to follow....
i'll do my best by each and every one of you and yours. i will do my best not to fail you. i will not take the words spoken from a TV studio or the comfort of 2 Grp as an apology. you failed our boys and us. you couldn't look me or others in the eyes and apologise. your words are meaningless, empty and late. more importantly your heartless attempts fail each and every person in, or wanting in, to the armed forces, one of our finest institutions.
there are no words to describe my pain.
worst of all though you live the reality and fear as i once did. i know that worry.
i hope i haven't nor will i fail you.
keep the faith.
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by the way MoD and AVM Hillier you will be hearing from me and for the recoed if you EVER have the short sightedness to think you can brush me off then think again. LET THIS BE THE ONLY WARNING YOU EVER GET..... When i write to you thst letter will be sent to every press and media contact i have and more. don't ever think you can brush me off. you don't do the cowardless act you did and think that's it. i know you watch these pages, so prepare yourself. i always said i would never forgive or let anyone get away with hurting my family....you hurt my family and my military family so you will have to answer.
YOU FAILED THOSE MEN AND YOUR SERVICE.
THEY ARE THE MEN AND WOMEN THAT DESERVE THE PRAISE. THEY ARE THE HEROES.
I WILL BE INDEBTED TO YOU ALL FOREVER.............
YOU FAILED THOSE MEN AND YOUR SERVICE.
THEY ARE THE MEN AND WOMEN THAT DESERVE THE PRAISE. THEY ARE THE HEROES.
I WILL BE INDEBTED TO YOU ALL FOREVER.............
A really irritating PPRuNer
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... And by your actions, those you will save, and their families, will be indebted to you forever too, Chappie!
Brian
Brian
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please, i do nothing and i know i am nothing.
you all mean the world to me. i will give you and the future generation life and security to those left behind. my god, i am so indebted to you all.
just let me heal.
but BOB AINSWORTH YOU ARE MINE............I WILL HAVE YOU.......
the real hero's are nige and flip.
you all mean the world to me. i will give you and the future generation life and security to those left behind. my god, i am so indebted to you all.
just let me heal.
but BOB AINSWORTH YOU ARE MINE............I WILL HAVE YOU.......
the real hero's are nige and flip.
Chappie, for all the denial, truculence and shear arrogance displayed by those who connived to suppress the wanton destruction of airworthiness of our military aircraft your raw courage and determination, in seeking out the truth of the machinations that lay behind the loss of XV179 and its occupants including your beloved brother, has confounded them. If I was at the receiving end of your outrage I would feel very bad. There have been a number of posts on here from a high level noting with regret the level of emotion displayed from time to time. A pity there wasn't more injected to thwart the irresponsible plotting from the word go! This whole saga can be summed up in the age old maxim that evil will flourish when good men do nothing. Thankfully there were enough good men, and especially women, to expose this evil. It must never be allowed to happen again. All good men and women take note!
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Chappie,
That is high praise indeed coming from someone as awe-inspiringly determined and courageous as your good self; I don't even come close!
I won't deny however, that I thought what I saw going on in the MoD was wrong and I knew that if I didn't say something, then I would not be able to look myself in the eye in the mirror of a morning. I wish I said and done more. But if my actions have helped, in some small way, draw attention to the evil that lurks out there, then I am glad to have helped.
Sadly, in the light of Ainsworth's comments after both recent inquests, this tragedy is destined to be repeated somewhere in the near future, unless urgent action is taken. As far as the top of the MoD is concerned, all is rosy but anyone with a modicum of common-sense and decency can appreciate that is not true.
Therefore, I encourage all other 'good' men and women out there (there are so many of you) to speak up and take action so as not to let the evil of complacency and selfishness take root. To allow repetition of XV179 would be criminal and not to have learnt a damn thing, other than how to bury one's head in the sand.
Please don't let the 'LESSONS IDENTIFIED' become 'LESSONS IGNORED' ....again - it might be your family that lives to regret your inaction.
That is high praise indeed coming from someone as awe-inspiringly determined and courageous as your good self; I don't even come close!
I won't deny however, that I thought what I saw going on in the MoD was wrong and I knew that if I didn't say something, then I would not be able to look myself in the eye in the mirror of a morning. I wish I said and done more. But if my actions have helped, in some small way, draw attention to the evil that lurks out there, then I am glad to have helped.
Sadly, in the light of Ainsworth's comments after both recent inquests, this tragedy is destined to be repeated somewhere in the near future, unless urgent action is taken. As far as the top of the MoD is concerned, all is rosy but anyone with a modicum of common-sense and decency can appreciate that is not true.
Therefore, I encourage all other 'good' men and women out there (there are so many of you) to speak up and take action so as not to let the evil of complacency and selfishness take root. To allow repetition of XV179 would be criminal and not to have learnt a damn thing, other than how to bury one's head in the sand.
Please don't let the 'LESSONS IDENTIFIED' become 'LESSONS IGNORED' ....again - it might be your family that lives to regret your inaction.
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thanks guys,
a quick update. i am going to be spreading the word and utilising my contacts and starting to get this sorted. i need a few days just to settle and lick my wounds, but i will not retreat nor desert you. i'm not to proud to admit that i'm scared. i'm scared of facing the pain that i've been left with as a result of what the MoD did to my big bruv. it's just me now, i'm alone and miss having him, i miss having a big brother, i miss having someone to look out for me. i will, however, not let it cloud my judgement nor my aim.
now, enough of that tosh.
has anyone got the contact details or advice about the UKNDA, or is it UKDNA or something like that? the defence bods that are trying to bring about change and help you all. it's right and proper that i do this correctly and don't go off on one. they'd love to portray me as the "angry relative" with no real ability. i am open to any advice.
oh, and before i go, will someone please tell mike neville he's got a little something on his shoulder he needs to get rid of! poor bloke
a quick update. i am going to be spreading the word and utilising my contacts and starting to get this sorted. i need a few days just to settle and lick my wounds, but i will not retreat nor desert you. i'm not to proud to admit that i'm scared. i'm scared of facing the pain that i've been left with as a result of what the MoD did to my big bruv. it's just me now, i'm alone and miss having him, i miss having a big brother, i miss having someone to look out for me. i will, however, not let it cloud my judgement nor my aim.
now, enough of that tosh.
has anyone got the contact details or advice about the UKNDA, or is it UKDNA or something like that? the defence bods that are trying to bring about change and help you all. it's right and proper that i do this correctly and don't go off on one. they'd love to portray me as the "angry relative" with no real ability. i am open to any advice.
oh, and before i go, will someone please tell mike neville he's got a little something on his shoulder he needs to get rid of! poor bloke
Chappie, Google is your friend! 
:
CONTACT US - UKNDA - The UK National Defence Association
I'm not sure about their aims, and hopefully someone from there could update us on just that. Suffice to say someone of that ilk (UKNDA RAF liaison officer or some such) did just that on this forum some time ago and did not impress!
I suspect their solution is to pump more and more wodge into the existing setup. Nice work if you can get it, but will you get it if you try?
My take is pouring more money into the incompetent heap that is the MOD will merely create yet more waste. It has to be torn apart and rebuilt, with anomalies like having airworthiness authority over its own operation, ie self regulation, done away with. Reform is the key rather than reflation IMHO.
:CONTACT US - UKNDA - The UK National Defence Association
I'm not sure about their aims, and hopefully someone from there could update us on just that. Suffice to say someone of that ilk (UKNDA RAF liaison officer or some such) did just that on this forum some time ago and did not impress!
I suspect their solution is to pump more and more wodge into the existing setup. Nice work if you can get it, but will you get it if you try?
My take is pouring more money into the incompetent heap that is the MOD will merely create yet more waste. It has to be torn apart and rebuilt, with anomalies like having airworthiness authority over its own operation, ie self regulation, done away with. Reform is the key rather than reflation IMHO.
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i'd be interested to find out if it's better then that i don't contact them. thanks for your advice. i just thought that they could be a resource or asisstance. i do agree that throwing money at a problem is not the answer.
No harm in sounding them out if you so wish, Chappie. As Flipster said in an earlier post, it is perhaps time to take stock and decide where we all go from here, especially in the light of Ainsworth's knee jerk response to the Coroner! A quick search on this site comes up with this thread (not the one I was alluding to above):
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...sociation.html
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...sociation.html
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rant on....
does anyone know of a tim collins? he's solider who is giving out rubbish about compensating seeking relatives, as the men die in war! i have been harangued by a journo about this.
i believe that when you sign up you risk the fact that you die in war. yes the plane was shot down, but it's and the crews ability to stand a chance was taken away as a result of the failings of the MoD.
please, please do not think that i am interested in money. there are families however who had their lives blown apart prematurely as a result of these failings. aged parents who no longer have their sons.
please understand that i may have fallen at the hands of a blood hound journo ....
rant off ....
i have since googled this man, and i am even more disappointed in him. iguess that maybe it is the journo's fault in this trying to put 2+2 together to make 5. he's picked someone so raw and newly plunged into yet another pool of grief. i have since the original post been rung again, this journo is trying to push me. i am so sorry if anything is printed that makes the wrong impression. i don't know what to do.
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does anyone know of a tim collins? he's solider who is giving out rubbish about compensating seeking relatives, as the men die in war! i have been harangued by a journo about this.
i believe that when you sign up you risk the fact that you die in war. yes the plane was shot down, but it's and the crews ability to stand a chance was taken away as a result of the failings of the MoD.
please, please do not think that i am interested in money. there are families however who had their lives blown apart prematurely as a result of these failings. aged parents who no longer have their sons.
please understand that i may have fallen at the hands of a blood hound journo ....
rant off ....
i have since googled this man, and i am even more disappointed in him. iguess that maybe it is the journo's fault in this trying to put 2+2 together to make 5. he's picked someone so raw and newly plunged into yet another pool of grief. i have since the original post been rung again, this journo is trying to push me. i am so sorry if anything is printed that makes the wrong impression. i don't know what to do.
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Last edited by chappie; 24th Oct 2008 at 19:24. Reason: as i found out who he is!!!