Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
why is it not possible to have good DAS, better FP AND upgraded armour? If it is purely a money-issue, then how come other nations find the dosh?? Perhaps it is because our political leaders want to fight a war on shoestring budget? Surely, our Services deserve better than that
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Chugalug; Flight International ran an article this week with the latest comments from CAS on this matter:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-upgrade.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-upgrade.html
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The foam is being installed by a company called "tank tigers" http://www.aoginc.com/ I understand they have a good name but were chosen by Marshall on cost grounds. If the install work is being done against a UOR then the work is on a time and material basis. Given the slow install rate, the RAF could consider "tendering" say 10 airframes to an alternative supplier. I understand the "Twin Peaks" hangar at St Athen is empty, the "Super Hangar" also has capacity and man-power available!
Sir Glenn Torpy seems happy with the rate that the aircraft are being contested. He was also happy to send Hercules to Afghanistan without foam. It is possible to open up a second line, it is just a question of priority. I dispute the comments made by RAF officials in the article above. My own information suggests that all three incidents could be fuel tank explosions. As for XV179 not surviving with foam, it is doubtful any expert could say that with 100% certainty. I do know, USAF Hercules hace survived much worse attacks, but hey, they had fuel tank protection.
Sir Glenn Torpy seems happy with the rate that the aircraft are being contested. He was also happy to send Hercules to Afghanistan without foam. It is possible to open up a second line, it is just a question of priority. I dispute the comments made by RAF officials in the article above. My own information suggests that all three incidents could be fuel tank explosions. As for XV179 not surviving with foam, it is doubtful any expert could say that with 100% certainty. I do know, USAF Hercules hace survived much worse attacks, but hey, they had fuel tank protection.
From the link provided:
Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy said: "There's a balance to be struck. It is being done as swiftly as industry can do it, given that we need a certain number of C-130s to continue our operations."
Dissembling.
1. Why are we limited to using “industry” to embody a straight forward, simple, modification? Not something to do with ditching the likes of St Athan and ridding the Services of the skills and capacity to do it in-house?
2. Yes, we need the C130s. But if you are relying on the “Engineering Pool” aircraft – typically around 15% of the fleet assumed to be in maintenance at any one time – to meet front line commitments, then by definition you are in overstretch.
Here’s my balanced view ACM. If you’ve gone into print and lambasted the Government and MoD for inflicting these issues on you, then I’ll retract. Otherwise – do your job.
Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy said: "There's a balance to be struck. It is being done as swiftly as industry can do it, given that we need a certain number of C-130s to continue our operations."
Dissembling.
1. Why are we limited to using “industry” to embody a straight forward, simple, modification? Not something to do with ditching the likes of St Athan and ridding the Services of the skills and capacity to do it in-house?
2. Yes, we need the C130s. But if you are relying on the “Engineering Pool” aircraft – typically around 15% of the fleet assumed to be in maintenance at any one time – to meet front line commitments, then by definition you are in overstretch.
Here’s my balanced view ACM. If you’ve gone into print and lambasted the Government and MoD for inflicting these issues on you, then I’ll retract. Otherwise – do your job.
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PQs
Hercules Aircraft
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the effect on (a) serviceability and (b) availability of C130s has been of the introduction of the Hercules Integrated Operational Support contract provided by Marshall Aerospace. [125000]
Mr. Ingram: The Hercules Integrated Operational Support (HIOS) contract's primary output is to provide Fit For Purpose (FFP) aircraft available to the Front Line Command. To qualify as FFP an aircraft must be reliable, safe and capable of performing the task on a given day.
HIOS is still in its transitional phase, and is due to complete on 30 November 2007. Nevertheless, between 1 September 2006 and 31 January 2007 (the most recent period for which data is available), there was a modest increase in FFP aircraft of 3 per cent. (whilst
13 Mar 2007 : Column 205W also reducing costs) when compared with a similar time frame under the previous aircraft support arrangements. This performance is expected to improve progressively as the full benefits of HIOS take effect.
Anyone care to explain Fit For Purpose. Would that include the aircraft parked up at Cambridge?
Hercules Aircraft
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the effect on (a) serviceability and (b) availability of C130s has been of the introduction of the Hercules Integrated Operational Support contract provided by Marshall Aerospace. [125000]
Mr. Ingram: The Hercules Integrated Operational Support (HIOS) contract's primary output is to provide Fit For Purpose (FFP) aircraft available to the Front Line Command. To qualify as FFP an aircraft must be reliable, safe and capable of performing the task on a given day.
HIOS is still in its transitional phase, and is due to complete on 30 November 2007. Nevertheless, between 1 September 2006 and 31 January 2007 (the most recent period for which data is available), there was a modest increase in FFP aircraft of 3 per cent. (whilst
13 Mar 2007 : Column 205W also reducing costs) when compared with a similar time frame under the previous aircraft support arrangements. This performance is expected to improve progressively as the full benefits of HIOS take effect.
Anyone care to explain Fit For Purpose. Would that include the aircraft parked up at Cambridge?
Tucemseh wrote:
Here here Tuc! Such complacent and "on message" comments as attributed to Sir Glenn above may secure his future (or so he thinks), but it is bad news for our aircrews and troops obliged to soldier on waiting on the capacity of "Industry". The words tails and wagging come to mind. The Royal Air Force has very serious deficits in AT and SH quality and quantity. At any time this would require urgently addressing, but in war it has to be done immediately and effectively. The track record to date shows neither, and is a scandalous disgrace. The person with direct responsibility is the CAS and it is time for him to go. I do not expect him to resign, no one ever does these days, so time for some imaginative script writing. His replacement must be some one up to the job, ie ensuring the operational effectiveness of the RAF. As for Sir Glenn, perhaps BAE have a slot for a flying salesman to flog Typhoons. Oh, they have? Excellent news!
Here’s my balanced view ACM. If you’ve gone into print and lambasted the Government and MoD for inflicting these issues on you, then I’ll retract. Otherwise – do your job
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
between 1 September 2006 and 31 January 2007 (the most recent period for which data is available), there was a modest increase in FFP aircraft of 3 per cent
Mr. Ingram: The Hercules Integrated Operational Support (HIOS) contract's primary output is to provide Fit For Purpose (FFP) aircraft available to the Front Line Command. To qualify as FFP an aircraft must be reliable, safe and capable of performing the task on a given day.
I know Ingram doesn’t write this stuff, but he sure puts his name to some bloody rubbish doesn’t he?
To an engineer, “Fitness for Purpose” is the definition of quality. In part, this entails ensuring the aircraft meets the whole a/c specification, which includes safety and airworthiness of not just the airframe, but its equipment as well. To meet that criteria it would have to have, inter alia, DAS and ESF when overflying a war zone, would it not? Safety extends beyond the aircraft, to the crew, passengers, ground crew, and the public over which it flies. I cannot reconcile the MoD’s explicit admission that safety is lacking (as they have approved funding for ESF) with this statement. If it’s considered “fit for purpose”, then I suggest the HIOS contract needs updating.
I know Ingram doesn’t write this stuff, but he sure puts his name to some bloody rubbish doesn’t he?
To an engineer, “Fitness for Purpose” is the definition of quality. In part, this entails ensuring the aircraft meets the whole a/c specification, which includes safety and airworthiness of not just the airframe, but its equipment as well. To meet that criteria it would have to have, inter alia, DAS and ESF when overflying a war zone, would it not? Safety extends beyond the aircraft, to the crew, passengers, ground crew, and the public over which it flies. I cannot reconcile the MoD’s explicit admission that safety is lacking (as they have approved funding for ESF) with this statement. If it’s considered “fit for purpose”, then I suggest the HIOS contract needs updating.
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Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will assess the adequacy of work carried out by the contractors fitting suppressant foam to Hercules aircraft. [128356]
Mr. Ingram: We are satisfied that the contractor is applying quality assurance processes robustly and that the fitting of explosive suppressant foam to Hercules aircraft will be completed within the agreed timeframe.
Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the value of the Hercules aircraft ZH876 and its contents that was written off and destroyed following the landing accident north of Basra. [128945]
Mr. Ingram: The current market value of a C-130J aircraft is in the region of £45 million.
This is an alternative answer to the one provided by Ingram.
Some Herc pilots believe that the RAF has purchased cheap foam, this is not the case, I understand that the foam quality is not a problem, it is the methods behind the fitting. Tank Tigers (TT) are stripping out all the old sealant then applying new. TT then request that the aircraft is flown to flex the wing and cure any subsequent leaks. I have been told that Marshall Aerospace won't allow this and go in and install the foam. After test flight to cure the leaks the foam has to be removed.
Storage of new foam is not a problem. Foam that has been in fuel is. It is this storage and removal / refit process that is causing the FOD problem.
Mr. Ingram: We are satisfied that the contractor is applying quality assurance processes robustly and that the fitting of explosive suppressant foam to Hercules aircraft will be completed within the agreed timeframe.
Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the value of the Hercules aircraft ZH876 and its contents that was written off and destroyed following the landing accident north of Basra. [128945]
Mr. Ingram: The current market value of a C-130J aircraft is in the region of £45 million.
This is an alternative answer to the one provided by Ingram.
Some Herc pilots believe that the RAF has purchased cheap foam, this is not the case, I understand that the foam quality is not a problem, it is the methods behind the fitting. Tank Tigers (TT) are stripping out all the old sealant then applying new. TT then request that the aircraft is flown to flex the wing and cure any subsequent leaks. I have been told that Marshall Aerospace won't allow this and go in and install the foam. After test flight to cure the leaks the foam has to be removed.
Storage of new foam is not a problem. Foam that has been in fuel is. It is this storage and removal / refit process that is causing the FOD problem.
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will assess the adequacy of work carried out by the contractors fitting suppressant foam to Hercules aircraft. [128356]
Mr. Ingram: We are satisfied that the contractor is applying quality assurance processes robustly and that the fitting of explosive suppressant foam to Hercules aircraft will be completed within the agreed timeframe.
As usual, Ingram doesn’t answer the question. “Quality Assurance” is planned actions. “Quality Control” is operational techniques and activities.
Given Nigel’s note about the difference if opinion between contractor and sub-contractor regarding techniques and activities, perhaps it would be more pertinent to ask if the MoD’s Quality Assurance Representative has exercised his right of access to both, and sought to reconcile this rather important issue; and, if so, what was the outcome. Clearly, if there are leaks, then there is a trend which demands investigation. Given the embodiment rate, one leaky aircraft is maybe forgivable (maybe) but to permit a second is incompetence, especially if it was predicted in the first place.
Mr. Ingram: We are satisfied that the contractor is applying quality assurance processes robustly and that the fitting of explosive suppressant foam to Hercules aircraft will be completed within the agreed timeframe.
As usual, Ingram doesn’t answer the question. “Quality Assurance” is planned actions. “Quality Control” is operational techniques and activities.
Given Nigel’s note about the difference if opinion between contractor and sub-contractor regarding techniques and activities, perhaps it would be more pertinent to ask if the MoD’s Quality Assurance Representative has exercised his right of access to both, and sought to reconcile this rather important issue; and, if so, what was the outcome. Clearly, if there are leaks, then there is a trend which demands investigation. Given the embodiment rate, one leaky aircraft is maybe forgivable (maybe) but to permit a second is incompetence, especially if it was predicted in the first place.
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Not just two Tuc, four out of four Ks delivered with leaks, last time I checked. I have been told that leaks were discovered on the after flight inspection by engineers at Lyneham after the Hercs were delivered from Marshall's. Now the fiters are getting clogged up. I am concerned that the crews might lose confidence in the program.
I guess a small apology is due to Mr Ingram for my last post. It must be very difficult for him, not to mention “off message”, to openly overrule or criticise the decisions of his immediate predecessors, who upheld a ruling that making provision for Quality Assurance and Control, or actually delivering a product that is safe, airworthy or otherwise fit for purpose, is optional.
Ingram would say that the voyage of the Titanic was executed in a completely professional and competent manner! There is only one right way to fit this foam and Marshalls would appear to prefer a different way. Take the work away from them to people who have done it before and have a proven track record of doing it right first time, on time, on budget. There is a war (or two) on you know!
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PQs RE UOR
I understood that the RAF placed a UOR to fit foam to all Hercules aircraft. Not just a select few which is what we have ended up with. I received this answer from Igram the other day.
Hercules Aircraft
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether the RAF has placed an urgent operational requirement for all Hercules aircraft to be fitted with explosive suppressant foam. [117912]
Mr. Ingram: RAF Strike Command raised urgent statements of user requirement for the fitting of explosion suppressant foam to that number of Hercules aircraft required to support current operations. These were all approved as urgent operational requirements.
This answer is not the one I was provided with a few months ago.. If anyone can confirm my original understanding please PM.
Hercules Aircraft
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether the RAF has placed an urgent operational requirement for all Hercules aircraft to be fitted with explosive suppressant foam. [117912]
Mr. Ingram: RAF Strike Command raised urgent statements of user requirement for the fitting of explosion suppressant foam to that number of Hercules aircraft required to support current operations. These were all approved as urgent operational requirements.
This answer is not the one I was provided with a few months ago.. If anyone can confirm my original understanding please PM.
"urgent statements of user requirement for the fitting of explosion suppressant foam to that number of Hercules aircraft required to support current operations".
That is NOT the same as an Urgent Operational Requirement!! Nor is a request for Full Fleet Fit. It is a statement of USER requirement which must then be staffed as a UOR by the SPONSOR.
More dissembling.
In the first instance, Ingram should be asked to answer the question.
That is NOT the same as an Urgent Operational Requirement!! Nor is a request for Full Fleet Fit. It is a statement of USER requirement which must then be staffed as a UOR by the SPONSOR.
More dissembling.
In the first instance, Ingram should be asked to answer the question.
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I think this might be one for the Herc Inquest. I re-read the BoI carefully the other day, it does appear that foam was requested to be considered fleet-wide but this appears to have been watered down. I have a day set aside to talk with the investigating officer. If anyone can provide any info between now and the 30th it would be greatly appreciated.
I was also told the other day that the Nimrod was brought down by a fuel tank explosion. I consider the lack of fuel tank protection in RAF aircraft to be a scandal. I will continue to pressurise the likes of Glenn Torpy, who is happy to send crews to war without fuel tank protection until he stops talking about his favourite toys and actually does something about it.
More PQs I love the title of this one, Peace Keepin Operations. I was told a couple of months ago that this BoI was complete and was with the MOD Lawyers. Could be wrong but Mr Ingram is spinning for Britain at the moment.
Afghanistan: Peace Keeping Operations
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the timetable is for the (a) reporting and (b) publication of the Board of Inquiry report into the destruction of the Hercules Aircraft on a landing strip in Afghanistan; and if he will make a statement. [124205]
Mr. Ingram: The Board of Inquiry continues to work to determine the cause of this event. The findings of the Board will be released as soon as possible after conclusion of the inquiry; a redacted copy of the report will be made available on the MOD website.
I was also told the other day that the Nimrod was brought down by a fuel tank explosion. I consider the lack of fuel tank protection in RAF aircraft to be a scandal. I will continue to pressurise the likes of Glenn Torpy, who is happy to send crews to war without fuel tank protection until he stops talking about his favourite toys and actually does something about it.
More PQs I love the title of this one, Peace Keepin Operations. I was told a couple of months ago that this BoI was complete and was with the MOD Lawyers. Could be wrong but Mr Ingram is spinning for Britain at the moment.
Afghanistan: Peace Keeping Operations
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the timetable is for the (a) reporting and (b) publication of the Board of Inquiry report into the destruction of the Hercules Aircraft on a landing strip in Afghanistan; and if he will make a statement. [124205]
Mr. Ingram: The Board of Inquiry continues to work to determine the cause of this event. The findings of the Board will be released as soon as possible after conclusion of the inquiry; a redacted copy of the report will be made available on the MOD website.
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It is alleged that the room in which the BOI for XV206 was working is now occupied by the team working the BOI for ZH876and the BOI for 206 shut up shop weeks, if not months, ago. Ingram is telling porkies again!
What i suspect is happening is that their airships and the legal branch are desparately trying to rearrange the commentss of the AOC and AOCinC to suit the spin doctors. Good eh?
Un fortunately, any delays seem to reinforce the idea that the findings are being fudged by the 'top kneddies'.
While everyone waits for publication dates, any findings of the BOI are being suppressed and this is not helping anyone, least of all the crews. Get a move on, Sirs - otherwise you risk any BOI findings being considered;
a. Out of Date
b. Massaged or heavily censored, thereby undermining the hard work done by the BOI itself.
Flipster
What i suspect is happening is that their airships and the legal branch are desparately trying to rearrange the commentss of the AOC and AOCinC to suit the spin doctors. Good eh?
Un fortunately, any delays seem to reinforce the idea that the findings are being fudged by the 'top kneddies'.
While everyone waits for publication dates, any findings of the BOI are being suppressed and this is not helping anyone, least of all the crews. Get a move on, Sirs - otherwise you risk any BOI findings being considered;
a. Out of Date
b. Massaged or heavily censored, thereby undermining the hard work done by the BOI itself.
Flipster
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Last time you dared to criticise the BoI process Flip, you upset a few people. I wonder if those same people would like to come forward now and explain the delay. I have huge misgivings about the way BoIs are convened. I do not believe that contemporaries and immediate superiors should serve on the board. They are too close. I also believe that the BoI lacks clout. The reason this thread started was simply because the process to fit foam stalled just a few weeks after the BoI was published. The real power has been in the Inquests.
At least in this case the President is somewhat removed from the day to day at Lyneham, and he will be greatly aided by the fact that the whole incident was filmed. Hopefully we will be told for sure, if this was another fuel tank explosion. This aircraft has been costed at £45m, cost of foam in 2002, $25,000.
I will chase up the answer provided by Ingram.
At least in this case the President is somewhat removed from the day to day at Lyneham, and he will be greatly aided by the fact that the whole incident was filmed. Hopefully we will be told for sure, if this was another fuel tank explosion. This aircraft has been costed at £45m, cost of foam in 2002, $25,000.
I will chase up the answer provided by Ingram.
Last time you dared to criticise the BoI process Flip, you upset a few people. I wonder if those same people would like to come forward now and explain the delay. I have huge misgivings about the way BoIs are convened. I do not believe that contemporaries and immediate superiors should serve on the board. They are too close. I also believe that the BoI lacks clout. The reason this thread started was simply because the process to fit foam stalled just a few weeks after the BoI was published. The real power has been in the Inquests.
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Totally agree Chug. The BoI for XV179 failed to explain why it was 38 years after USAF first started ffitting foam to Hercules ac our own RAF hadn't even recommended it. In the case of Matty Hull the MoD lied about the presence of the HUD video and almost got away with it. There were failures in the BoI for Sgt Roberts. I have a great deal of difficulty accounting for the lack of independence and I have no faith in the MoD providing comprehensive documentation.
A sad state of affairs.
A sad state of affairs.