Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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Don't worry about Tim Collins Chappie, he blew his credibility with the military community a while ago.
To counter his argument I would take him on over the subject of money.
Most widows are living on a 1/3rd of the family income before they lost their loved one. Talk to Graham Knight he will give you a flavour of the degrading and humiliating questions the widows of the Kinloss tragedy have had to answer to qualify for supposed automatic compensation from the Government. Take Collins on and rub his nose in the mess he is trying to make from other people's grief.
I hope you take the MoD to the cleaners anyway. Most people understand that the MoD act like an actuary, the more expensive you make it for unnecessary loss of life the more chance they are likely to be proactive.
See if you can't get brave Mr Collins on a head to head, we'll see how brave he is then.
To counter his argument I would take him on over the subject of money.
Most widows are living on a 1/3rd of the family income before they lost their loved one. Talk to Graham Knight he will give you a flavour of the degrading and humiliating questions the widows of the Kinloss tragedy have had to answer to qualify for supposed automatic compensation from the Government. Take Collins on and rub his nose in the mess he is trying to make from other people's grief.
I hope you take the MoD to the cleaners anyway. Most people understand that the MoD act like an actuary, the more expensive you make it for unnecessary loss of life the more chance they are likely to be proactive.
See if you can't get brave Mr Collins on a head to head, we'll see how brave he is then.
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Can anyone find a recording of Ainsorth's weasly statement on 5 live? I've failed to find it, which is quite puzzling, as I can find numerous refs to Steve Hillier's and Nevs' interviews but not TCA's!
ps
Nige
Give us a ping or clear yr PM inbox a bit (if poss).
TVM
Flip
ps
Nige
Give us a ping or clear yr PM inbox a bit (if poss).
TVM
Flip
Last edited by flipster; 24th Oct 2008 at 23:54.
Can anyone find a recording of Ainsorth's weasly statement on 5 live? I've failed to find it, which is quite puzzling, as I can find numerous refs to Steve Hillier's and Nevs' interviews but not TCA's!
Recording it now and will post a link.
Flip, here are Ainsworth's words according to BBC Online. Don't know if that's the same as his FiveLive appearance.
BBC NEWS | UK | Reaction to Hercules verdict
airsound
BOB AINSWORTH, ARMED FORCES MINISTER
There were problems with our procedures, our ability to track the threat - to marshal all of the evidence of the threat - and that's something we are absolutely determined to address.
That has been exposed in the coroner's court - some of these issues brought out by our own Board of Inquiry.
We try to learn all of the lessons of every single accident and every single incident which occurs in theatre.
There were problems with our procedures, our ability to track the threat - to marshal all of the evidence of the threat - and that's something we are absolutely determined to address.
That has been exposed in the coroner's court - some of these issues brought out by our own Board of Inquiry.
We try to learn all of the lessons of every single accident and every single incident which occurs in theatre.
airsound
Last edited by airsound; 25th Oct 2008 at 08:20. Reason: adding link
Click on link.....
Download links - Sharebee.com, the one and only online file hosting distribution service.
Filename: ainsworth 221008 1730.mp3 Size: 1.74 MB
Click on one of 4 host server options ("Rapidshare" etc). Follow download instructions and open file in your media player. It is about 6 mins and just the Ainsworth interview.
"We accept the Coroner's verdict".
"Our own systems exposed the failures". Does that mean pprune is now part of the MoD?
Download links - Sharebee.com, the one and only online file hosting distribution service.
Filename: ainsworth 221008 1730.mp3 Size: 1.74 MB
Click on one of 4 host server options ("Rapidshare" etc). Follow download instructions and open file in your media player. It is about 6 mins and just the Ainsworth interview.
"We accept the Coroner's verdict".
"Our own systems exposed the failures". Does that mean pprune is now part of the MoD?
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Thanks for the link Tuc.
Hasn't it occurred to Mr Answorth that if the MoD's processes, structures and systems had done their job correctly, then there wouldn't have been an explosion, a BOI, nor an Inquest, in the first place!?
The airworthiness system is broken and Mull, Nimrod and Herc are but a few examples of a system in freefall. The frontline deserve better support than the present system is currently capable of providing.
However, I suspect that while there may be a few rotten apples, the vast majority of DE&S are hard-working and committed individuals who, like many others in the MoD, feel under-funded, over-stretched and unloved.
Let the good men and women therein stand up and be counted. I would ask them to remember that the people on the front-line are only as good as the equipment they use.
I plead with AF Min to wake up and smell the coffee.
Hasn't it occurred to Mr Answorth that if the MoD's processes, structures and systems had done their job correctly, then there wouldn't have been an explosion, a BOI, nor an Inquest, in the first place!?
The airworthiness system is broken and Mull, Nimrod and Herc are but a few examples of a system in freefall. The frontline deserve better support than the present system is currently capable of providing.
However, I suspect that while there may be a few rotten apples, the vast majority of DE&S are hard-working and committed individuals who, like many others in the MoD, feel under-funded, over-stretched and unloved.
Let the good men and women therein stand up and be counted. I would ask them to remember that the people on the front-line are only as good as the equipment they use.
I plead with AF Min to wake up and smell the coffee.
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Dunc, one thing that has been suggested after the verdict is that all three campaign groups come together. The Chinook campaign has extremely good high level links into the Lords, both the Nimrod and Herc campaigns have been stunningly successful. It is an interesting idea.
To be fair we have contact anyway but it is informal. Graham is taking the Nimrod families into new legal ground. The likes of Barrister John Cooper have been fantastic in offering a level of Court Room expertize. We all have extensive media contacts, mainly because the media almost immediately saw the story for what it was. The Chinook campaign is still very optimistic about progress.
Extraordinarily at the Hercules Inquest there was a team of MoD and DSF personnel watching and monitoring everything. You can decide for yourself what the media made of the verdict and whether they made the tiniest difference.
I guess the big decision to make just now, is do we try and work inside the tent, if the MoD is willing to discuss the idea, or do we stay outside the tent.
I am opened minded.
Edited to add that one of the frustrating things about the coronial process is that none of it is on line and the transcripts are extremely expensive. If you want to know what happened you simply have to be there. Everyone makes notes in the Court Room. The cost of the Nimrod transcript was over 20K! I managed to pull in a favour to get the Hickman transcript.
I am not sure about the findings though. Again at the Nimrod Inquest the findings ran to over 50 pages and bizarrely Coroner Walker had to read them into court. So he spent an hour speed reading aloud, as part of the ancient process.
Hey I am not knocking it, one of the last great institutions that actually works fairly independently of Govt, but haven't they heard of t'internet??
To be fair we have contact anyway but it is informal. Graham is taking the Nimrod families into new legal ground. The likes of Barrister John Cooper have been fantastic in offering a level of Court Room expertize. We all have extensive media contacts, mainly because the media almost immediately saw the story for what it was. The Chinook campaign is still very optimistic about progress.
Extraordinarily at the Hercules Inquest there was a team of MoD and DSF personnel watching and monitoring everything. You can decide for yourself what the media made of the verdict and whether they made the tiniest difference.
I guess the big decision to make just now, is do we try and work inside the tent, if the MoD is willing to discuss the idea, or do we stay outside the tent.
I am opened minded.
Edited to add that one of the frustrating things about the coronial process is that none of it is on line and the transcripts are extremely expensive. If you want to know what happened you simply have to be there. Everyone makes notes in the Court Room. The cost of the Nimrod transcript was over 20K! I managed to pull in a favour to get the Hickman transcript.
I am not sure about the findings though. Again at the Nimrod Inquest the findings ran to over 50 pages and bizarrely Coroner Walker had to read them into court. So he spent an hour speed reading aloud, as part of the ancient process.
Hey I am not knocking it, one of the last great institutions that actually works fairly independently of Govt, but haven't they heard of t'internet??
Last edited by nigegilb; 25th Oct 2008 at 13:31.
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nige i think i would be open minded as well, trying to work privately with the mod would be the first port of call and then if you dont get any where or are not happy then work from the outside through the media
There is an election on the horizon so the old politicians might start to listen.
Either way if there is anything i can do to help i would be happy to get involved
Duncan
There is an election on the horizon so the old politicians might start to listen.
Either way if there is anything i can do to help i would be happy to get involved
Duncan
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To be honest I doubt they would let me in the building but we have a new man in charge (Hutton) and he really is in a desperate position politically, (just about the last Labour MP in the South), he is also a good bloke and you never know he might bring more of an open mind to the position the MoD find themselves in.
I will keep you advised and thanks.
Would love to meet Bob Ainsorth in the flesh..........
I will keep you advised and thanks.
Would love to meet Bob Ainsorth in the flesh..........
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Chappie this might be of use, it is a clause in the contract that the widows had to sign in the aftermath of the crash;
I was given a summary of the Armed Forces Family Pensions (AFPS). In paragraph 6 it reads
REDUCTION IN ATTRIBUTABLE FORCES FAMILY PENSION ENTITLEMENT
If you have been awarded an Attributable Family Pension, this may be subject to a reduction if at any time you receive compensation from a third party as a consequence of the death of your spouse. If you have received, or receive at a future date such compensation, you should report the full details to the pension authority.
The legality of getting a grieving widow to sign a document without any legal advice is highly doubtful. But this is the sort of trick that the MoD plays in the teeth of human tragedy. Ask Tim Collins if he condones this kind of thing or whether it happened when he was a CO.
I was given a summary of the Armed Forces Family Pensions (AFPS). In paragraph 6 it reads
REDUCTION IN ATTRIBUTABLE FORCES FAMILY PENSION ENTITLEMENT
If you have been awarded an Attributable Family Pension, this may be subject to a reduction if at any time you receive compensation from a third party as a consequence of the death of your spouse. If you have received, or receive at a future date such compensation, you should report the full details to the pension authority.
The legality of getting a grieving widow to sign a document without any legal advice is highly doubtful. But this is the sort of trick that the MoD plays in the teeth of human tragedy. Ask Tim Collins if he condones this kind of thing or whether it happened when he was a CO.
....you should report....
'Should' is only a recommendation. It may therefore be ignored.
Had this read 'you shall report', it would have been a mandatory requirement.
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The only case I am aware of similar to Nimrod was another high profile loss of a soldier in GW2. On that occasion MoD settled out of Court and SoS Defence waived the right to reduce the existing pension award. Whether it is should or shall, we are talking about the same organisation settling that already pays the pension so it matters not.
If there is a settlement to HRA Right to life case I fully expect SoS Def to do the same, that is waive the right to reduce the award. Last time there was an associated gagging order (I think), be interesting to see what the MoD do next.
I assume Collins must have a book in the pipeline?
If there is a settlement to HRA Right to life case I fully expect SoS Def to do the same, that is waive the right to reduce the award. Last time there was an associated gagging order (I think), be interesting to see what the MoD do next.
I assume Collins must have a book in the pipeline?
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So here is a guy who clearly can't be bothered to read the BoI before giving us his insight into why XV170 was shot down. "Weird stuff,"
"took out the heart". Wow how did he get to Colonel with this analytical prowess. His understanding of threat effects is impressive, "massive rocket or something". Then he blames the compensation culture that led to the Inquest being held. Has he never heard of English law?
This is the same guy who wants to disband the RAF, me thinks he should switch to selling life insurance. Don't worry about this guy Chappie, you could make toilet paper out of him.
Iraq hero hits out at Hercules inquest
Published Date: 26 October 2008
By Tom Peterkin
THE army officer whose rousing speech famously inspired soldiers before they went into battle in Iraq has criticised the "compensation culture" that led to an inquest being held into the deaths of 10 British servicemen killed when their RAF Hercules was shot down.
Col Tim Collins said "nothing on earth" would have saved the men and added that those serving their country should be aware that "weird stuff" happens at war.
His remarks drew a furious response from families of the men who perished when their aircraft went down in Iraq.
They came as new defence secretary John Hutton said forces were well equipped but "past failures" must not be repeated.
Last week, the coroner for Wiltshire found that the men's lives could have been saved if protective foam around the aircraft's fuel tanks had been fitted when it was shot down flying between Baghdad and Balad in January 2005.
Collins said: "My understanding is that the Hercules was hit by a rocket which took it out right in the heart and nothing on this earth would have saved them."
The former Royal Irish Regiment officer also accused New Labour of fostering a compensation culture and when asked whether an inquest could provide comfort for victims' families, he replied: "What answers are you looking for? They were in a war zone and you're in an aircraft that's been hit by a massive rocket. That's the answer. If you do join up – weird stuff happens in war."
Iraq hero hits out at Hercules inquest - Scotland on Sunday
"took out the heart". Wow how did he get to Colonel with this analytical prowess. His understanding of threat effects is impressive, "massive rocket or something". Then he blames the compensation culture that led to the Inquest being held. Has he never heard of English law?
This is the same guy who wants to disband the RAF, me thinks he should switch to selling life insurance. Don't worry about this guy Chappie, you could make toilet paper out of him.
Iraq hero hits out at Hercules inquest
Published Date: 26 October 2008
By Tom Peterkin
THE army officer whose rousing speech famously inspired soldiers before they went into battle in Iraq has criticised the "compensation culture" that led to an inquest being held into the deaths of 10 British servicemen killed when their RAF Hercules was shot down.
Col Tim Collins said "nothing on earth" would have saved the men and added that those serving their country should be aware that "weird stuff" happens at war.
His remarks drew a furious response from families of the men who perished when their aircraft went down in Iraq.
They came as new defence secretary John Hutton said forces were well equipped but "past failures" must not be repeated.
Last week, the coroner for Wiltshire found that the men's lives could have been saved if protective foam around the aircraft's fuel tanks had been fitted when it was shot down flying between Baghdad and Balad in January 2005.
Collins said: "My understanding is that the Hercules was hit by a rocket which took it out right in the heart and nothing on this earth would have saved them."
The former Royal Irish Regiment officer also accused New Labour of fostering a compensation culture and when asked whether an inquest could provide comfort for victims' families, he replied: "What answers are you looking for? They were in a war zone and you're in an aircraft that's been hit by a massive rocket. That's the answer. If you do join up – weird stuff happens in war."
Iraq hero hits out at Hercules inquest - Scotland on Sunday
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me thinks it's time that i added this Collins chap to my list of to do's to sort out. where on earth does this man get off jumping onto the bandwagon to have a go days after the inquest closed? it has to be said it was a hard night trying to settle my girls into having me back home and give them time to have to endure the stream of calls. those girls needed their mum to be mum not get so wrapped up in the after math of the inquest.
thank god officers like collins no longer hold position in the force, as how will lessons ever be carried forward? let's hope this man does'nt have political aspirations, the government are in enough of a mess.
thank god officers like collins no longer hold position in the force, as how will lessons ever be carried forward? let's hope this man does'nt have political aspirations, the government are in enough of a mess.
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RE; Tim Collins
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Collins was promoted to full colonel after the Iraq war, and was accused by US Army reservist Major Re Biastre of the mistreatment of Iraqi civilians and prisoners of war. Following an investigation by the Special Investigation Branch of the Royal Military Police he was cleared of any wrongdoing. He later won substantial undisclosed libel damages from both the Sunday Express and the Sunday Mirror newspapers.[3]
In January 2004, Collins announced his resignation from the army, citing bureaucracy, chronic underfunding, and the MoD's lack of support over the mistreatment allegations.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
No need for a PM Chappie count me in
The former Royal Irish Regiment officer also accused New Labour of fostering a compensation culture and when asked whether an inquest could provide comfort for victims' families, he replied: "What answers are you looking for? They were in a war zone and you're in an aircraft that's been hit by a massive rocket. That's the answer. If you do join up – weird stuff happens in war."
Collins was promoted to full colonel after the Iraq war, and was accused by US Army reservist Major Re Biastre of the mistreatment of Iraqi civilians and prisoners of war. Following an investigation by the Special Investigation Branch of the Royal Military Police he was cleared of any wrongdoing. He later won substantial undisclosed libel damages from both the Sunday Express and the Sunday Mirror newspapers.[3]
In January 2004, Collins announced his resignation from the army, citing bureaucracy, chronic underfunding, and the MoD's lack of support over the mistreatment allegations.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
No need for a PM Chappie count me in
Chappie - you were worried on 24 Oct that the journo chasing the Collins story (I assume Tom Peterkin, Political Editor, Scotland On Sunday) was going to misquote you and give Collins too much credibility.
Well, having looked at the article, I think you gave an excellent, punchy answer
So, as ever, well done! Especially under the homecoming family stresses that you mention.
I'm thinking that we might pursue this further through journalistic channels and see if we can't get a proper right of reply - but perhaps if it doesn't get picked up elsewhere it might be best to let sleeping dogs lie. What does anyone think?
airsound
Well, having looked at the article, I think you gave an excellent, punchy answer
Sarah Chapman, the sister of Robert O'Connor, a technician on board the aircraft, said she was "very disappointed and saddened" by Collins' remarks. "Tim Collins is obviously very old school," she said. "Yes, they were in a war zone, but let's just remember that all of their chances to cope with their attacks were removed, not by insurgents, but by those who were supposed to protect their safety and apply their duty of care.
"To come out with a tired old phrase like compensation culture and to use it in relation to the families is insulting."
"To come out with a tired old phrase like compensation culture and to use it in relation to the families is insulting."
I'm thinking that we might pursue this further through journalistic channels and see if we can't get a proper right of reply - but perhaps if it doesn't get picked up elsewhere it might be best to let sleeping dogs lie. What does anyone think?
airsound