Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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inspiration needed
morning chaps and chapesses!
hope you are all well. it is with a heavy heart that again the papers are full of headlines stating the RAF lose more personnel. i am so very sorry for everyone.
FJJP i tried to PM you last night but i think the ol' puter decided that it was going on strike just when i pressed send! bear with me, i will get round to answering my PM's.
i need inspiration. please can any of you get in contact if there is something that you feel is not being adressed in regards of the campaign. i seem to have come to a standstill and not sure which direction to take things next. i do not want this to go away and as i have stated before i will not rest until foam is secured for all hercules. please do not think that the fight is over yet.
i know that you have all been fantastic in sorting out the ebay fiasco ut i seem unable to make contact with them, as i have questions of my own. each time i get to the bit where it says email us it does'nt go to email!
hope you are all well. it is with a heavy heart that again the papers are full of headlines stating the RAF lose more personnel. i am so very sorry for everyone.
FJJP i tried to PM you last night but i think the ol' puter decided that it was going on strike just when i pressed send! bear with me, i will get round to answering my PM's.
i need inspiration. please can any of you get in contact if there is something that you feel is not being adressed in regards of the campaign. i seem to have come to a standstill and not sure which direction to take things next. i do not want this to go away and as i have stated before i will not rest until foam is secured for all hercules. please do not think that the fight is over yet.
i know that you have all been fantastic in sorting out the ebay fiasco ut i seem unable to make contact with them, as i have questions of my own. each time i get to the bit where it says email us it does'nt go to email!
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stuff
Chappie,
There is a lot going on in the background not all of it stemming from us. Sorry for sounding conspirational but it could be major. Nothing you can do so just sit back and have a cup of tea, just like I am doing at the mo!!
Regards,
NG
There is a lot going on in the background not all of it stemming from us. Sorry for sounding conspirational but it could be major. Nothing you can do so just sit back and have a cup of tea, just like I am doing at the mo!!
Regards,
NG
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Originally Posted by chappie
there are gross misuse of funds in the government on a daily basis that the cash can be released from, so i do not and will not buy the notion that there is not the money.
i have heard that there is concern that i am using my brother as political bait and i'm being disrespectful to his memory. how that conclusion has been reached i do not know. if this view is the opinion of those of you who have watched and supported this please let me know. needless to say i am distraught at this notion but i am keen to recieve feedback as it is essential that this does not happen. i have had to talk of bob to rationalise why i am here in this fight. i await your views.
i have heard that there is concern that i am using my brother as political bait and i'm being disrespectful to his memory. how that conclusion has been reached i do not know. if this view is the opinion of those of you who have watched and supported this please let me know. needless to say i am distraught at this notion but i am keen to recieve feedback as it is essential that this does not happen. i have had to talk of bob to rationalise why i am here in this fight. i await your views.
in regards to the cost of fitting the foam, the 600,000 price tag that people have been mentioning is for the foam alone, then take into concideration the cost of labour to fit the foam and the time it takes to fit the foam and that price tag suddenly shoots up to about 900,000 thats pretty much 1 million per plane!!!
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thankyou for your views and concerns. they have been filed so i can give them thought over time. it's important that there is a balance.
bob's voice on the radio was done to ensure the point got across of the awful reality of the true cost of this crash....the loss of a life. we can talk about life but words can be empty. this makes sure that the point is underlined in capitals, bold, italics and shouted out loud from the highest building. it isn't comfortable is it being reminded that because of the need to cut corners the result is loss of life. well, it's not comfotable for me either facing the loss of my brother every single day. it may be distressing for some people for a few minutes but every time i look at his photo i'm beside myself with grief. each time i go to pick up the phone and then realise he's not there. the ugliness and the rawness of grief do not go away and do not pass. they are simply endured.. not that i need to justify what i have done, ultimately the decision lay with the journalist of how best to make the impact with the report. the report made the point well.
you ask about why no one elses voice was used. no one from the crew called me before the plane took off and no other family did the report. so i hope that will allay your concerns.
speaking off concerns it's nice to know that there are people looking out for the loved ones of bob although you seem to have omitted any family members. as you did not know bob i shall try to offer reassurance in that department as it seems as though you are a little distressed which i would never wish to be the case. he was'nt married and there are no children but thankyou for looking out for them.
i have recieved blessings and support from the other families who were sadly involved with the crash as it was important that they were happy for me to fight for the legacy that these men must have in their memory. there was concern only that the tv appearance by myself and nige were the issue for families. that has been cleared up now the families in the local area have all been spoken to. there has been nothing but praise for the radio piece, so i hope you will see the point to the report as did others.
let's not worry about the cost. that is for the government to sort. you cannot put a price on life....one of them or ten of them. there is no limit in my mind. it needs to be implemented and therefore should be. there may be conflicting figures thrown about but that doesn't mean that it lessens the need to protect the troops. i will continue to fight all the way.
i'd be more than happy to correspond with you on a personal level about any other concerns that you have on this matter if you PM me.
bob's voice on the radio was done to ensure the point got across of the awful reality of the true cost of this crash....the loss of a life. we can talk about life but words can be empty. this makes sure that the point is underlined in capitals, bold, italics and shouted out loud from the highest building. it isn't comfortable is it being reminded that because of the need to cut corners the result is loss of life. well, it's not comfotable for me either facing the loss of my brother every single day. it may be distressing for some people for a few minutes but every time i look at his photo i'm beside myself with grief. each time i go to pick up the phone and then realise he's not there. the ugliness and the rawness of grief do not go away and do not pass. they are simply endured.. not that i need to justify what i have done, ultimately the decision lay with the journalist of how best to make the impact with the report. the report made the point well.
you ask about why no one elses voice was used. no one from the crew called me before the plane took off and no other family did the report. so i hope that will allay your concerns.
speaking off concerns it's nice to know that there are people looking out for the loved ones of bob although you seem to have omitted any family members. as you did not know bob i shall try to offer reassurance in that department as it seems as though you are a little distressed which i would never wish to be the case. he was'nt married and there are no children but thankyou for looking out for them.
i have recieved blessings and support from the other families who were sadly involved with the crash as it was important that they were happy for me to fight for the legacy that these men must have in their memory. there was concern only that the tv appearance by myself and nige were the issue for families. that has been cleared up now the families in the local area have all been spoken to. there has been nothing but praise for the radio piece, so i hope you will see the point to the report as did others.
let's not worry about the cost. that is for the government to sort. you cannot put a price on life....one of them or ten of them. there is no limit in my mind. it needs to be implemented and therefore should be. there may be conflicting figures thrown about but that doesn't mean that it lessens the need to protect the troops. i will continue to fight all the way.
i'd be more than happy to correspond with you on a personal level about any other concerns that you have on this matter if you PM me.
Last edited by chappie; 9th May 2006 at 17:57.
paz,
We started out hearing about a setup cost of approx £600,000 then £50,000 per aircraft.
Next, the MoD stated approx £600,000 per aircraft.
Now you've just quoted £600,000 per aircraft just for the foam, with labour on top. (plus VAT and the callout charge?) ie around about £1million per aircraft.
I'm curious where you've got your figures from.
We started out hearing about a setup cost of approx £600,000 then £50,000 per aircraft.
Next, the MoD stated approx £600,000 per aircraft.
Now you've just quoted £600,000 per aircraft just for the foam, with labour on top. (plus VAT and the callout charge?) ie around about £1million per aircraft.
I'm curious where you've got your figures from.
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Money. When one of the 47 pilots looked at the cost of the foam in 2001 it was $25,000, per ac. When Liam Fox wrote to LM in January they were quoted £50,000 per ac. The actual cost is considerably higher than that. Lets say £600,000 per ac, which is the highest Govt quote I have seen. Last time I checked 3 days ago the cost of a brand new J Herc was £50 million. Lets ignore the cost of human life for a second. The whole fleet at Lyneham could be fitted out twice over for the cost of one ac. Does it make sense to you now? Compare it to the price of a sexy new DAS and it is piffling. Remember for the USAF this is baseline protection on which every other type of defensive measure is built. This is no longer an optional extra, this is a basic requirement.
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Paz
We are family members of one of those who died on XV179 - We support Sarah and Nige in all their efforts to get foam fitted on ALL Hercules and any other aricraft that it is needed. We don't CARE what the cost is - 50,000 pounds or 1 million pounds - what cost are you putting on lives. I have read the many messages of sympathy posted for those unfortunate to have lost their lives on the helicopter, and I for one DO know what their relatives and close friends are going through. We read the same messages when we lost our relative. If ANYTHING at all can be done to prevent further loss of life then it should be done -NO MATTER WHAT THE COST.
You are not alone Sarah.
We are family members of one of those who died on XV179 - We support Sarah and Nige in all their efforts to get foam fitted on ALL Hercules and any other aricraft that it is needed. We don't CARE what the cost is - 50,000 pounds or 1 million pounds - what cost are you putting on lives. I have read the many messages of sympathy posted for those unfortunate to have lost their lives on the helicopter, and I for one DO know what their relatives and close friends are going through. We read the same messages when we lost our relative. If ANYTHING at all can be done to prevent further loss of life then it should be done -NO MATTER WHAT THE COST.
You are not alone Sarah.
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Nige, 'Lets ignore the cost of human life for a second' - maybe not.
Paz, it doesn't matter if the cost per ac is £50k or £1 million, because even the govt's own openly available guidelines support the campaign. This taken from The Green Book Annex 2 - http://greenbook.treasury.gov.uk/index.htm 'Green Book, Appraisal and Evaluation in Central Government' with my bold :
The Value of a Prevented Fatality or Prevented Injury
26 A benefit of some proposals is the prevention of fatalities or injuries. The appropriate starting point for valuing these benefits is to measure the individual’s WTP for a reduction in risk of death (or their willingness to accept a new hazard and the ensuing increased risk).
27 The willingness of an individual to pay for small changes in their own or their household’s risk of loss of life or injury can be used to infer the value of a prevented fatality (VPF). The changes in the probabilities of premature death or of serious injury used in such WTP studies are generally very small.
28 In the UK, the main measure of VPF incorporates the ‘extra’ value placed on relatives and friends, and any further value placed by society on avoiding the premature death of individuals. Accordingly, the addition of an individual’s WTP for the safety of others to his ‘own’ WTP for ‘own’ safety may lead to double counting.
29 A lower bound on the value of a prevented fatality may be determined by revealed preference and stated preference studies. This lower bound is useful for determining a threshold of value for money for safety expenditure and also for comparing proposals concerning increased safety.
30 Revealed preference studies can derive individual WTP for risk reduction from, for example, the size of wage differentials for more or less risky occupations; or price versus safety trade-offs in choosing transport modes; or WTP for safety devices such as smoke alarms or car air bags. However, in practice, these estimates of the revealed value of a prevented fatality are not precise. Stated preference approaches have also been used to provide estimates of VPF using questionnaires.
31 In the UK, the Department for Transport (DfT) values the reduction of the risk of death in the context of road transport at about £1.145m per fatal casualty prevented (in 2000 prices). In addition to the WTP measures, these estimates include gross lost output, medical and ambulance costs.Values are uprated in line with assumed changes in GDP per head.
32 DfT also attributes monetary values to the prevention of non-fatal casualties, based on a WTP approach. Serious and slight casualties are valued separately and the values are uprated in line with changes in GDP per head. Values currently in use for preventing a serious and slight road injury are £128,650 and £9,920 respectively (at 2000 prices). Costs of police, insurance and property damage are added to these casualty values to obtain values for the prevention of road accidents. The HSE tariff of monetary values for pain, grief and suffering begins at £150 for the most minor non-reportable injury.
33 There is evidence that individuals are not indifferent to the cause and circumstances of injury or fatality. For example, in their estimate of benefits from asbestos proposals, HSE currently doubles the VPF figure to allow for individual aversion to dying from cancer, and the additional associated personal and medical costs.
So, given the number of deaths on the road, saving one life is worth spending £1.145m on. Now put this in the context of an aircraft carrying a number of military personnel ....
There is other information out there - I did a google on value prevented fatality - with one by a Richard Maguire on military VPF at £8.5m.
sw
Paz, it doesn't matter if the cost per ac is £50k or £1 million, because even the govt's own openly available guidelines support the campaign. This taken from The Green Book Annex 2 - http://greenbook.treasury.gov.uk/index.htm 'Green Book, Appraisal and Evaluation in Central Government' with my bold :
The Value of a Prevented Fatality or Prevented Injury
26 A benefit of some proposals is the prevention of fatalities or injuries. The appropriate starting point for valuing these benefits is to measure the individual’s WTP for a reduction in risk of death (or their willingness to accept a new hazard and the ensuing increased risk).
27 The willingness of an individual to pay for small changes in their own or their household’s risk of loss of life or injury can be used to infer the value of a prevented fatality (VPF). The changes in the probabilities of premature death or of serious injury used in such WTP studies are generally very small.
28 In the UK, the main measure of VPF incorporates the ‘extra’ value placed on relatives and friends, and any further value placed by society on avoiding the premature death of individuals. Accordingly, the addition of an individual’s WTP for the safety of others to his ‘own’ WTP for ‘own’ safety may lead to double counting.
29 A lower bound on the value of a prevented fatality may be determined by revealed preference and stated preference studies. This lower bound is useful for determining a threshold of value for money for safety expenditure and also for comparing proposals concerning increased safety.
30 Revealed preference studies can derive individual WTP for risk reduction from, for example, the size of wage differentials for more or less risky occupations; or price versus safety trade-offs in choosing transport modes; or WTP for safety devices such as smoke alarms or car air bags. However, in practice, these estimates of the revealed value of a prevented fatality are not precise. Stated preference approaches have also been used to provide estimates of VPF using questionnaires.
31 In the UK, the Department for Transport (DfT) values the reduction of the risk of death in the context of road transport at about £1.145m per fatal casualty prevented (in 2000 prices). In addition to the WTP measures, these estimates include gross lost output, medical and ambulance costs.Values are uprated in line with assumed changes in GDP per head.
32 DfT also attributes monetary values to the prevention of non-fatal casualties, based on a WTP approach. Serious and slight casualties are valued separately and the values are uprated in line with changes in GDP per head. Values currently in use for preventing a serious and slight road injury are £128,650 and £9,920 respectively (at 2000 prices). Costs of police, insurance and property damage are added to these casualty values to obtain values for the prevention of road accidents. The HSE tariff of monetary values for pain, grief and suffering begins at £150 for the most minor non-reportable injury.
33 There is evidence that individuals are not indifferent to the cause and circumstances of injury or fatality. For example, in their estimate of benefits from asbestos proposals, HSE currently doubles the VPF figure to allow for individual aversion to dying from cancer, and the additional associated personal and medical costs.
So, given the number of deaths on the road, saving one life is worth spending £1.145m on. Now put this in the context of an aircraft carrying a number of military personnel ....
There is other information out there - I did a google on value prevented fatality - with one by a Richard Maguire on military VPF at £8.5m.
sw
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This is extraordinary information. One of the arguments used against me was that of quoting how many people die on the roads compared with ac. Now we can see it is cheaper to insure against loss of life in the air. Add in 70 pax to the mix and you get a better idea of cost per head.
There is no doubt that we are winning the argument. I did an interview for Canadian TV that went out coast to coast. The Defence Minister there, had never heard of foam before but now the Canadian Military are looking closely at it for their Hercs (30 or so). The momentum is undeniable. You will get the odd person who objects but in my experience they do not fly in Hercules ac. The army movers are on side, regular customers and of course the aircrew. Operationally there may be a problem with J range, but the RAF was offered external tanks at a knock down price when the J was procured. They are now 3 times the price. But Hey Brindisi is a good night stop.
There is no doubt that we are winning the argument. I did an interview for Canadian TV that went out coast to coast. The Defence Minister there, had never heard of foam before but now the Canadian Military are looking closely at it for their Hercs (30 or so). The momentum is undeniable. You will get the odd person who objects but in my experience they do not fly in Hercules ac. The army movers are on side, regular customers and of course the aircrew. Operationally there may be a problem with J range, but the RAF was offered external tanks at a knock down price when the J was procured. They are now 3 times the price. But Hey Brindisi is a good night stop.
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Chappie, Nige et al.
Safeware is quite right and remember to up-rate those 2000 figures in line with inflation since 2000 (2-2.5% p.a.). Also, you could have a look at the supplimentary budget documents which may show the amount spent on UORs.
AFAIK, UORs are paid for from the additional funding for ops - the so-called Net Additional Cost of Military Operations (NACMO). This is new money, over and above the defence budget. (See John Reid on 14 Dec 05: http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/...12-14c.37043.h) Therefore, if you can show that the green book costs are met, and that this is an operationally required UOR, things should be looking up.
As "Deep Throat" said - follow the money!
S41
Safeware is quite right and remember to up-rate those 2000 figures in line with inflation since 2000 (2-2.5% p.a.). Also, you could have a look at the supplimentary budget documents which may show the amount spent on UORs.
AFAIK, UORs are paid for from the additional funding for ops - the so-called Net Additional Cost of Military Operations (NACMO). This is new money, over and above the defence budget. (See John Reid on 14 Dec 05: http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/...12-14c.37043.h) Therefore, if you can show that the green book costs are met, and that this is an operationally required UOR, things should be looking up.
As "Deep Throat" said - follow the money!
S41
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What I do not understand is if there is a UOR for foam why is it not being fitted on every single Herc going sausage?
Last edited by nigegilb; 9th May 2006 at 22:06.
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This is the very thing that raises my suspicions. Why are MoD being so coy about J figures? The relatives will not rest until they know that every Herc facing the same threat is protected or is at least planned to be. We have all learnt not to trust reassuring phrases from MoD. There are signs of a learning curve though. Bit like the flowers in my garden they are only showing an interest now after a long hard winter!
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What I do not understand is if there is a UOR for foam why is it not being fitted on every single Herc going sausage?
But I could be wrong. Squirrel?
sw
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what i don't understand is ....what the bloody hell are you talking about?!
remember there are non military reading this and as such the abbreviations mean diddly! i may be forced to use my nursing abbreviations again! be warned!
hark, is that the collective sound of knees shaking with fear?
pazmanga, a liitle something i'd like you to clear up before i away for a bit. you had worried about any distress that may have been felt for his non existent children and wife, etc because of the radio piece yet you stated that this was done without any prior warning?! how do you know there was no warning given, i'm a little confused. please let me allay your fears as his family did know it was going out. you seem to have forgotten not only to mention his family but also stop to think that it may have been hard for me to part with something so precious and private.
as mentioned previously please PM me if there any other matters i can help you with. in fact, i hope it helped that you will since be able to see that there is nothing but love and support from the other families that are involved and my fellow ppruners.
night night chaps and chapesses. think of me at the solicitors tomorrow.
remember there are non military reading this and as such the abbreviations mean diddly! i may be forced to use my nursing abbreviations again! be warned!
hark, is that the collective sound of knees shaking with fear?
pazmanga, a liitle something i'd like you to clear up before i away for a bit. you had worried about any distress that may have been felt for his non existent children and wife, etc because of the radio piece yet you stated that this was done without any prior warning?! how do you know there was no warning given, i'm a little confused. please let me allay your fears as his family did know it was going out. you seem to have forgotten not only to mention his family but also stop to think that it may have been hard for me to part with something so precious and private.
as mentioned previously please PM me if there any other matters i can help you with. in fact, i hope it helped that you will since be able to see that there is nothing but love and support from the other families that are involved and my fellow ppruners. night night chaps and chapesses. think of me at the solicitors tomorrow.
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I think I am too tired to understand Squirrel's point. Remember my methodology is not exactly by the book. My method is to to pressure the politician direct. However if I am missing a trick with the correct way of seeking finance I will look again at the vagaries of military operational spending. I guess after my Stn Cdr told me what needed to happen to release money from MoD I kind of lost interest in budgets and accounting!
Best interests,
Nige
Best interests,
Nige
Last edited by nigegilb; 9th May 2006 at 23:13.
Like Nige says, the story from Canada. From the final sentence it also looks as though the Canadians value their guys more than the MoD value us.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...oam060508.html
Yet more good work Mr G!
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...oam060508.html
Yet more good work Mr G!
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prop, the nogs and hopefully swedes are about to get the same. i am always impressed by honesty in politicians. would our devotees of spin note that ca defence minister admitted that it was the first he had heard of it (ESF), but thought it a good idea. no pat phrase like all our hercs have a suite of defensive aids. they care, so should you. and if you do, give all hercs foam please.
Last edited by nigegilb; 10th May 2006 at 00:05.