Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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" i am sure that our ignorance of the danger of a fuel tank explosion will continue to puzzle and perhaps anger you, especially since the USA and latterly Australia have fitted ESF to many of their aircraft, but the very unfortunate fact is that only hindsight has made it clear to us." this from a very senior RAF offical offered to the families as a platitude.
yet according to john reid on the channel four news following nigel he stated the reason as to why we had not followed the example of those countries as we had not lost an RAF aircraft.....oops. what will the next excuse be? if we do not bring about change there will be more lives lost.
i do hope thatalthough you are pissed you may still be farfrompuken! loving the name!
yet according to john reid on the channel four news following nigel he stated the reason as to why we had not followed the example of those countries as we had not lost an RAF aircraft.....oops. what will the next excuse be? if we do not bring about change there will be more lives lost.
i do hope thatalthough you are pissed you may still be farfrompuken! loving the name!
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P-a-F,
You have just explained;
a. Why slicks were sent to AFG
b. Why slicks might be sent to Afg again
c. Why we need protection for all Hercs
d. The sort of thinking that has left us with AT fleet without adequate protection.
e. Why Hercs have been sent to Afg without foam in fuel tanks
Well done.
RE. Hindsight. We lost a Herc because of a lack of fuel tank protection. However up until a few days ago we were the only European nation not to have signed up to fuel tank protection for A400M. We should have been the first. We had only signed up to 9 DASS out of 25. Even though we lost a crew it appears we still wanted to save money. Without our intervention, we might have ended up with a handful of Hercules with foam protection. What is so disgusting is that even after suffering tragic loss of life HMG still dragged its heels. This does not impress me. This is why Ministers have been given a bit of foresight and a notice of corporate manslaughter to help them make their minds up.
You have just explained;
a. Why slicks were sent to AFG
b. Why slicks might be sent to Afg again
c. Why we need protection for all Hercs
d. The sort of thinking that has left us with AT fleet without adequate protection.
e. Why Hercs have been sent to Afg without foam in fuel tanks
Well done.
RE. Hindsight. We lost a Herc because of a lack of fuel tank protection. However up until a few days ago we were the only European nation not to have signed up to fuel tank protection for A400M. We should have been the first. We had only signed up to 9 DASS out of 25. Even though we lost a crew it appears we still wanted to save money. Without our intervention, we might have ended up with a handful of Hercules with foam protection. What is so disgusting is that even after suffering tragic loss of life HMG still dragged its heels. This does not impress me. This is why Ministers have been given a bit of foresight and a notice of corporate manslaughter to help them make their minds up.
Last edited by nigegilb; 19th May 2006 at 07:42.
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Yep - spot on!
What I can't understand is why the MOD is not 'rattling its tin cup' in the direction of HM Treasury for some extra-urgent funding for foam and DAS for ALL Hercs and other 'at-risk' aircraft (including SH)........ASAP?
C'mon Leaders........please LEAD!
If the Treasury then say 'No' - they become liable, too. Perhaps we should put that nice Mr Gordon Broon on notice for corp manslaughter as well as Hoon, Ingram, Reid and 'Des'? Oh, Don't forget the next person who becomes Chancellor!
What I can't understand is why the MOD is not 'rattling its tin cup' in the direction of HM Treasury for some extra-urgent funding for foam and DAS for ALL Hercs and other 'at-risk' aircraft (including SH)........ASAP?
C'mon Leaders........please LEAD!
If the Treasury then say 'No' - they become liable, too. Perhaps we should put that nice Mr Gordon Broon on notice for corp manslaughter as well as Hoon, Ingram, Reid and 'Des'? Oh, Don't forget the next person who becomes Chancellor!
Last edited by flipster; 19th May 2006 at 08:30.
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Once again Sir Huphrey an co can sum it all up:
This may explain the governments reluctance to fit foam to the C130s:
"In government, many people have the power to stop things happening but almost nobody has the power to make things happen. The system has the engine of a lawn mower and the brakes of a Rolls Royce."
"The first rule of politics: never believe anything until it's been officially denied."
"'The Government's position' means 'the best explanation of past events that cannot be disproved by available facts'."
"Press statements are not delivered under oath."
The Law of Inverse Relevance, the less you intend doing about something the more you have to keep talking about it
The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's more expensive to do them cheaply and it's more democratic to do them in secret.
"'This would create a dangerous precedent'.
Translation: 'If we do the right thing now, we might have to do the right thing again next time'."
Translation: 'If we do the right thing now, we might have to do the right thing again next time'."
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It appears the best thing to do is to put in a UOR. If it is not supported by highers then we can take it further. But as has been proven in the case of the Herc do not take a verbal no for an answer, fire in the paperwork. If the paperwork is already in, slide it in again. These requests have a habit of disappearing.
Nige
Nige
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JTO
Please tell me you are mistaken?!!!
If not, I'm crossing fingers, arms, legs etc for the VC10 crews - eek.
The Timmys were so lucky in KAB in 2002 - most them that had a bit of 'nous' found the weather 'punk' and went on to KHI - not that KHI was a 'walk in the park' either, mind you!
Perhaps the MOD/2 Gp has procured some extra luck from somewhere? I do hope so - because we are fast using it up! Not that it did much good for 179 and the recent Lynx crew - RIP.
Flipster
Please tell me you are mistaken?!!!
If not, I'm crossing fingers, arms, legs etc for the VC10 crews - eek.
The Timmys were so lucky in KAB in 2002 - most them that had a bit of 'nous' found the weather 'punk' and went on to KHI - not that KHI was a 'walk in the park' either, mind you!
Perhaps the MOD/2 Gp has procured some extra luck from somewhere? I do hope so - because we are fast using it up! Not that it did much good for 179 and the recent Lynx crew - RIP.
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nigegilb, you're doing a fantastic job. Had the decision to retrofit foam been decided properly in-service, and you were heading up the project team, you'd be in line for an O/MBE!
I may be missing something here [and forgive a crusty old f*rt for an appaling memory... now where was I?] oh, yes, has the question been asked of the minister for defence as to whether or not the gov will order foam and full DAS for the whole A400 fleet and any other fleets in the pipeline?
I may be missing something here [and forgive a crusty old f*rt for an appaling memory... now where was I?] oh, yes, has the question been asked of the minister for defence as to whether or not the gov will order foam and full DAS for the whole A400 fleet and any other fleets in the pipeline?
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FJJP, Amazingly contracts were signed 2 days after the R4, C4 news coverage on Tuesday 02 May. I understand that the A400M is sorted completely. This contract signing was in complete contrast to answers to PQs just a few days before....Good ere innit??!!
It's funny I was told by a very well repected broadcast journalist, if you want the ear of the Prime Minister, he listens to R4 Today, along with HM Queen. Guess he wasn't wrong then...
After the trouble I have caused our Govt, I am taking great care when exercising the dog!
It's funny I was told by a very well repected broadcast journalist, if you want the ear of the Prime Minister, he listens to R4 Today, along with HM Queen. Guess he wasn't wrong then...
After the trouble I have caused our Govt, I am taking great care when exercising the dog!
Last edited by nigegilb; 19th May 2006 at 14:11.
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Afghanistan MK2
If anyone had any doubts, then the events in the last 48 hrs should confirm that this deployment is about to kick off. Reports of hundreds of Taleban fighters driving vehicles with mounted heavy machine guns, rolling into a town close to Bastion for a full on shooting match confirms in my mind that the Brits are going to war and soon. We do not have many soldiers and we lack firepower.
As we seem incapable of learning lessons from US and AUS experience maybe now is the right moment to compare our risk assessment/threat matrix/minimum equipment list with those of our coalition partners. If we are allowing our ac into AFG with a self-protection standard lower than our partners then heads should roll. No more mistakes, no more excuses.
Get the kit and get it now.
NG
As we seem incapable of learning lessons from US and AUS experience maybe now is the right moment to compare our risk assessment/threat matrix/minimum equipment list with those of our coalition partners. If we are allowing our ac into AFG with a self-protection standard lower than our partners then heads should roll. No more mistakes, no more excuses.
Get the kit and get it now.
NG
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positive signs
well, it transpires that my request to meet des browne has been forwarded to him rather than binned, and as i've mentioned previously words are being had in his shell like. when....if i get a date i shall let you know. i have questions i want to ask re: lack of protection etc but if there are questions you want asking make sure you let me know. the n of k from the XV179 have been invited to meet with charlie and camilla. perfect forum i thought to inform him of the atrocious lack in duty of care for our albert crews and our fight for their welfare, but i've not been invited. no suprise really! it's for those who have lost loved ones in conflicts. i guess i'll have to prime my parents before they go! can't afford to miss this oppurtunity. no one will intimidate me or be too big for me to approach about getting foam installed for all.
defence question going to be asked on monday. i thought it was going to be PMQ nonetheless still happy.
petition nearly finalised. once i've got signatures i plan to take myself off to downing street again oh, and the steps of whitehall. maybe i should stop at buck house.
meanwhile, stay safe.
defence question going to be asked on monday. i thought it was going to be PMQ nonetheless still happy.
petition nearly finalised. once i've got signatures i plan to take myself off to downing street again oh, and the steps of whitehall. maybe i should stop at buck house.
meanwhile, stay safe.
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tbw, I don't think it is official yet. The situation a few weeks ago as I am sure you know:
nil fuel tank inerting 9xDAS
Situation now and I am not sure about the contract signing for DAS, but I understand the following to be true. Usual Govt health warnings apply;
25 x Fuel Tank Inerting systems (extremely good ones)
25 x DAS
Like I say, good 'ere innit?
I am sure the MoD will claim this was always the plan, but I have some very good information to suggest the opposite. It would be churlish to split hairs I am just happy the boys/girls will be given good protection. There is no doubt that this campaign is helping to change thinking in a big way. I also understand that more protection is coming the way of existing 2GP assets. Good news all round. The only bad news is the amount of time it will take for the Herc fleet to get the foam. The next stage of our little campaign is to get a DAS upgrade for the majority of J fleet. I am not aware of any moves to protect passengers so I will be raising this issue soon.
NG
nil fuel tank inerting 9xDAS
Situation now and I am not sure about the contract signing for DAS, but I understand the following to be true. Usual Govt health warnings apply;
25 x Fuel Tank Inerting systems (extremely good ones)
25 x DAS
Like I say, good 'ere innit?
I am sure the MoD will claim this was always the plan, but I have some very good information to suggest the opposite. It would be churlish to split hairs I am just happy the boys/girls will be given good protection. There is no doubt that this campaign is helping to change thinking in a big way. I also understand that more protection is coming the way of existing 2GP assets. Good news all round. The only bad news is the amount of time it will take for the Herc fleet to get the foam. The next stage of our little campaign is to get a DAS upgrade for the majority of J fleet. I am not aware of any moves to protect passengers so I will be raising this issue soon.
NG
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From Private Eye, No 1158
One assumes, of course that Reid’s transport, recently taking him into and out of Afghanistan, had a full ESF/DAS fit.
News From The Sand Pit
Just before he was plucked from his job as Defence Secretary to save Tony Blair’s skin at the Home Office, John Reid appeared on Channel Four News to explain why Explosion Suppressant Foam (ESF) was not supplied to all transport aircraft, following the loss last year of 10 lives and an unprotected RAF Hercules, brought down by small arms fire in Iraq.
“The biggest threat,” he revealed, “is from surface-to-air-missiles, not small arms”; the destructive power of missiles making the use of ESF pretty pointless.
In fact the decision not to use the foam was made entirely for reasons of cost – small arms fire might not be the “biggest” threat, but it is a threat all the same. And if surface-to-air-missiles are so dangerous, why did the MoD cancel the fitting of the most sophisticated Defensive Air Suites (DAS) to Hercules transport planes back in 2004?
A plucky band of fly boys and ex-pilots have been urging the Ministry to see the error of their ways and they are now rushing to fit “some” aircraft with the updated DAS.
The loss of five lives and a Lynx helicopter over Basra illuminated another issue, this time a tactical one. The press has reported that helicopters are used like buses to transport troops and supplies around and this is what makes them vulnerable to ground fire. True; but helicopters are also used for “top cover” by troops on patrol, who rely on their onboard cameras and communications systems: during the troubles in Northern Ireland there was one parked above West Belfast practically all the time. These missions have currently been suspended, placing troops on the ground at greater risk.
The Americans use armoured helicopter gunships like the Apache for much of this work. Whenever a transport helicopter is in the air, a gunship goes along with it. But for reasons of cost, the Brits only have a tiny handful of these aircraft. Indeed, we’ve yet to see a British Apache over Basra accompanying the Lynx – which is “armoured” with ballistic Kevlar floor mats that are as much use as a chocolate teapot.
Just before he was plucked from his job as Defence Secretary to save Tony Blair’s skin at the Home Office, John Reid appeared on Channel Four News to explain why Explosion Suppressant Foam (ESF) was not supplied to all transport aircraft, following the loss last year of 10 lives and an unprotected RAF Hercules, brought down by small arms fire in Iraq.
“The biggest threat,” he revealed, “is from surface-to-air-missiles, not small arms”; the destructive power of missiles making the use of ESF pretty pointless.
In fact the decision not to use the foam was made entirely for reasons of cost – small arms fire might not be the “biggest” threat, but it is a threat all the same. And if surface-to-air-missiles are so dangerous, why did the MoD cancel the fitting of the most sophisticated Defensive Air Suites (DAS) to Hercules transport planes back in 2004?
A plucky band of fly boys and ex-pilots have been urging the Ministry to see the error of their ways and they are now rushing to fit “some” aircraft with the updated DAS.
The loss of five lives and a Lynx helicopter over Basra illuminated another issue, this time a tactical one. The press has reported that helicopters are used like buses to transport troops and supplies around and this is what makes them vulnerable to ground fire. True; but helicopters are also used for “top cover” by troops on patrol, who rely on their onboard cameras and communications systems: during the troubles in Northern Ireland there was one parked above West Belfast practically all the time. These missions have currently been suspended, placing troops on the ground at greater risk.
The Americans use armoured helicopter gunships like the Apache for much of this work. Whenever a transport helicopter is in the air, a gunship goes along with it. But for reasons of cost, the Brits only have a tiny handful of these aircraft. Indeed, we’ve yet to see a British Apache over Basra accompanying the Lynx – which is “armoured” with ballistic Kevlar floor mats that are as much use as a chocolate teapot.
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C17
Maybe our friends at Brize Norton will kindly confirm this but I assume Reid travelled to Iraq in a C17-leased from US with a modern DAS and crucially fuel tank inerting. Strange how the RAF is denying knowledge of fuel tank inerting requirement for Hercules whilst simultaneously operating leased US ac with the protection on board. Remember the RAF did not have to buy OBIGGS it came standard. I hope this little fact was not lost on Mr Reid.
NG
NG
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I am new to this thread but have read with interest. With all the information gathering taking place has anyone surveyed the guys and gals for a list of "wants" and "needs"
B eagle, thanks for explaining so eloquently for the non-tech participants.
Pazmanga, I knew Bob well, many hours we have spent discussing life, family, the job and the future . Bob had a long term partner who he considered his wife and referred to as "the Mrs" and he was very proud of her and his "sons".They were a major and important part of his life. They had not been told of the radio report containing Bobs voice and the impact this had was unbelievable and unnecessary so thank you for looking out for them
good luck with the campaign. You have my support
B eagle, thanks for explaining so eloquently for the non-tech participants.
Pazmanga, I knew Bob well, many hours we have spent discussing life, family, the job and the future . Bob had a long term partner who he considered his wife and referred to as "the Mrs" and he was very proud of her and his "sons".They were a major and important part of his life. They had not been told of the radio report containing Bobs voice and the impact this had was unbelievable and unnecessary so thank you for looking out for them
good luck with the campaign. You have my support
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JTO, OBIGGS has big shortcomings but it still does a job. The system going on A400M is superb. Point is if C17 was not leased I doubt if we would have any fuel tank protection. Wider point, if an RAF engineer does not know about fuel tank protection after 26 years experience it is obvious that seniors are too highly focussed on staff courses and do not know how to fight and survive wars. Lack of funding in AT and Helo World is no secret. This stems from a lack of leadership and knowledge. In my view more emphasis should be placed on operational experience as a precursor to promotional advancement. In my short time on SF it was clear that superb operators (and I do not include myself), were being held back because of a lack of staff courses and worthless secondary duties. As a result we are lacking a great deal of equipment and lacking real leadership. Ignorance is not an excuse!
Last edited by nigegilb; 21st May 2006 at 19:13.
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I know this is not technically "on topic", but I believe is applicable and some may find a step most definately in the right direction. The Sunday Times today has published a half-page spread on this matter.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...190144,00.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...190144,00.html
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I have made several references to the need for a military federation. It seems clear that highers have little interest in sticking their necks out for the safety of the guys on the frontline. Even more worrying, I am hearing of plans by this Govt to introduce new legislation to deal with deserters in Iraq or Afg. It behoves all service people to keep an eye on the law makers. Do not dismiss the idea of a Federation. They will look after your interests. Blair's Govt may have little in the way of military experience, the least his ministers could do is visit the injured and find out what is happening on the front line.