Life after EK
Join Date: May 2005
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616 Thanks for that most intelligent and considered piece of prose. Pondlife like you buddy have destroyed the credibility of this profession.
Bymonek. Get you facts straight my friend. Even after tax you will end up saving more cash in many other companies than you will ever save with EK. If living in a company provided accomodation and surviving in an ever more expensive environment by crawling around for discounts using your EPC card floats your boat then go for it buddy. However one day you will leave Dubai and you will have to compete for a retirement with the likes of me. People in the real world living in their own property and paying their own bills. You live in The Truman show my friend and one day you will be shown the door.
It amazes me that you are so protective over a company that has done nothing more than shaft you since you joined.
By the way old been my company pay a guareenteed 13th month plus a guarenteed 14th month every year.
I pay tax but I have rights and God help anyone that F@#$% with MY contract!
When I drive on the road I am an equal.
Wake up my friends you live in a hostile society and should be paid accordingly, and I mean paid in cash not free memberships and discount piss at the local.
Walk now or bend over.
Bymonek. Get you facts straight my friend. Even after tax you will end up saving more cash in many other companies than you will ever save with EK. If living in a company provided accomodation and surviving in an ever more expensive environment by crawling around for discounts using your EPC card floats your boat then go for it buddy. However one day you will leave Dubai and you will have to compete for a retirement with the likes of me. People in the real world living in their own property and paying their own bills. You live in The Truman show my friend and one day you will be shown the door.
It amazes me that you are so protective over a company that has done nothing more than shaft you since you joined.
By the way old been my company pay a guareenteed 13th month plus a guarenteed 14th month every year.
I pay tax but I have rights and God help anyone that F@#$% with MY contract!
When I drive on the road I am an equal.
Wake up my friends you live in a hostile society and should be paid accordingly, and I mean paid in cash not free memberships and discount piss at the local.
Walk now or bend over.
Join Date: Jun 2004
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shaggin yoke
What a very angry and bitter person you sound. When I do decide to retire, I will endeavour to do it as far away from you as possible. Away from people like you who's own insecurities are reflected in the "my car's newer than yours" behaviour. I don't consider myself to be in competition with anyone, not now and certainly not, when I retire.
Regarding accommodation, i'm very happy to be in one that the Company provides. That is until, I move into my own villa in 2 years from now which has already enjoyed considerable capital growth, on paper at least. When I do, the Company will then pay my mortgage by giving me more money.£15,000 p/a to be exact.
As for the numerous properties in the UK which are being paid for by other peoples rent......
Plenty more "facts" available but none that you'd like to hear.
Regards
BYMONEK
P.S Please invest in a dictionary.....i'm sure you can afford it!
What a very angry and bitter person you sound. When I do decide to retire, I will endeavour to do it as far away from you as possible. Away from people like you who's own insecurities are reflected in the "my car's newer than yours" behaviour. I don't consider myself to be in competition with anyone, not now and certainly not, when I retire.
Regarding accommodation, i'm very happy to be in one that the Company provides. That is until, I move into my own villa in 2 years from now which has already enjoyed considerable capital growth, on paper at least. When I do, the Company will then pay my mortgage by giving me more money.£15,000 p/a to be exact.
As for the numerous properties in the UK which are being paid for by other peoples rent......
Plenty more "facts" available but none that you'd like to hear.
Regards
BYMONEK
P.S Please invest in a dictionary.....i'm sure you can afford it!
Join Date: May 2005
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No I am not bitter, why should I be? I know a lot of first rate guys at EK and it does anoy me to see the trend of eroding the Conditions of Service continue. When I was their I was like you and looked for reasons to justify the shafting.
Good for you you have property at home. Did you purchase that out of savings from EK? Do you really beleive that a new joiner will be able to repeat your success?
As for competition, sounds harsh doesn't it?
When you retire and purchase your retirement home, the value of that home will be dictated by the amount other people, your competion, are willing to pay for it. It is just simple market forces. You guys in EK earn about the same as a bus driver in the UK ( FO salary). A trades man in T5 earns 75K Sterling per year.
When your junior collegues retire do you think they will be expecting to shack up in a 2 up 2 down in Peckham. The 5 beds in Guilford will go to the likes of those guys you see occaisionally in Dubai. You know the ones in the nice suits that eat in the Vu everynight and stand in Boudois with Champagne on ice. The Oilworkers Lawyers etc etc.
The world IS competetive and you better learn that fast. In this jungle you guys are the zoo animals. Good food and a secure environment. I live in the jungle a fight for my respect and Food.
One day you too will be in the jungle. Compete or die that is the name of capitalism.
4 weeks bonus!! I hide my face in shame as you rejoice over your meagre hand out. I have senior friends that earn that in overtime and a lawyer friend who gets that in allowances monthly.
You either say no to this exploitation now or trust me you will look back one day and regret that you did not have the balls.
The weak are exploited and that is what you are right now.
Good for you you have property at home. Did you purchase that out of savings from EK? Do you really beleive that a new joiner will be able to repeat your success?
As for competition, sounds harsh doesn't it?
When you retire and purchase your retirement home, the value of that home will be dictated by the amount other people, your competion, are willing to pay for it. It is just simple market forces. You guys in EK earn about the same as a bus driver in the UK ( FO salary). A trades man in T5 earns 75K Sterling per year.
When your junior collegues retire do you think they will be expecting to shack up in a 2 up 2 down in Peckham. The 5 beds in Guilford will go to the likes of those guys you see occaisionally in Dubai. You know the ones in the nice suits that eat in the Vu everynight and stand in Boudois with Champagne on ice. The Oilworkers Lawyers etc etc.
The world IS competetive and you better learn that fast. In this jungle you guys are the zoo animals. Good food and a secure environment. I live in the jungle a fight for my respect and Food.
One day you too will be in the jungle. Compete or die that is the name of capitalism.
4 weeks bonus!! I hide my face in shame as you rejoice over your meagre hand out. I have senior friends that earn that in overtime and a lawyer friend who gets that in allowances monthly.
You either say no to this exploitation now or trust me you will look back one day and regret that you did not have the balls.
The weak are exploited and that is what you are right now.
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shaggin yoke
You still havn't bought that dictionary yet, have you?
Are you telling me that bus drivers are earning over £50,000p/a
That's the minimum they would need to get before tax deductions. They have housing provided do they? Perhaps an extra £15,000 tax free allowance in lieu then? Schooling paid for? Medical/dentist for all family?42 days leave? Don't insult us!
The only thing I agree with you on is the pay for workers at T5. But with my reckoning, £75K would put them on a higher salary then any UK Airlines starting salary for a Captain. Including yours...... which you seem to have conveniently not mentioned yet.
As for not being bitter.....seems like YOU'RE trying too hard just to keep up with your lawyer friends. Give up.....drive a bus instead.It's good money you know!
You still havn't bought that dictionary yet, have you?
Are you telling me that bus drivers are earning over £50,000p/a
That's the minimum they would need to get before tax deductions. They have housing provided do they? Perhaps an extra £15,000 tax free allowance in lieu then? Schooling paid for? Medical/dentist for all family?42 days leave? Don't insult us!
The only thing I agree with you on is the pay for workers at T5. But with my reckoning, £75K would put them on a higher salary then any UK Airlines starting salary for a Captain. Including yours...... which you seem to have conveniently not mentioned yet.
As for not being bitter.....seems like YOU'RE trying too hard just to keep up with your lawyer friends. Give up.....drive a bus instead.It's good money you know!
Join Date: May 2005
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Dictionary on the shopping list!! :-) its like being back at school!
Train driver gets "free education" paid for by taxes. free NH and Dental care.
He gets legal protection and can leave his country when on days of whenever he pleases.
If things turn to crap the state will give him housing and supplemental income depending on his requirements IE number of dependents.
Train driver has got legal protection and a stable union protected contract.
24000 dhms / 7 *12=
41000 GBP
Ryan Air Captain 120000 GBP. Cathay housing allowance 35000 GBP!!! Wake up and smell the coffee mate
If you include all that payment in kind rubbish that EK sell then you are sader than I thought.
I don't envy my lawyer friends ..they envy me.
I suggest you print off this discussion and put it away somewhere safe. It will make more sense when you re enter the jungle.
Train driver gets "free education" paid for by taxes. free NH and Dental care.
He gets legal protection and can leave his country when on days of whenever he pleases.
If things turn to crap the state will give him housing and supplemental income depending on his requirements IE number of dependents.
Train driver has got legal protection and a stable union protected contract.
24000 dhms / 7 *12=
41000 GBP
Ryan Air Captain 120000 GBP. Cathay housing allowance 35000 GBP!!! Wake up and smell the coffee mate
If you include all that payment in kind rubbish that EK sell then you are sader than I thought.
I don't envy my lawyer friends ..they envy me.
I suggest you print off this discussion and put it away somewhere safe. It will make more sense when you re enter the jungle.
Join Date: Dec 2004
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bymonek, I'm not criticising your choice to come here / stay here. I don't wish to be an expat for any longer than I have to, maybe because I really like my home country. I also chose to come here rather than go down other paths for combination lifestyle and remuneration. Unfortunately, EK has not honoured their side of the contract. As well, the lifestyle has eroded significantly over the time I have been here. I have done comparisons with both A and B scale colleagues in CX, and they are each streets ahead in remuneration (remaining savings at end of month). That means they are able to save / invest greater amounts of money, and hence reduce the amount of time as an expat. CX also offers basings, but I guess if you really dislike the UK so much, then perhaps that is not for you. And as far as the house which you have bought but is not built yet, good luck. As we know, there are just as many winners as losers in real estate. For some reason, people in Dubai think that the real estate market will not follow age old rules of real estate markets throughout the rest of the world. There will be a peak. My view is, beware of owning a villa 10km out into the desert at the time when real estate near the coast becomes available to expats as well. I think it is late this year by decree. Anyway, keep the debate coming. Most enjoyable mate. 
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Shaggin yoke
Make it an ABACUS as well.
My Dirhams are net. He would have to pay tax remember.Which makes it £50,000 min. As for the state paying for him and his 4 kids if it all turns crap.....who do you think pays for it. I'll give you a clue.....it's not me!
Cathay housing allowance = still living in apartment
Ryanair starting salary £120K = B*******
You're the one who needs to smell the coffee, mate.
p.s the rate is currently 6.7
p.p.s you still havn't told us all who you work for!
Believe Brother
All valid points and can't argue with you on some of them. CX would never be for me though, regardless of pay. As for property advice, i'm planted well and truly near the sea but i'm all too aware the housing market may sink as fast as it rises....
Regards
BYMONEK
Make it an ABACUS as well.
My Dirhams are net. He would have to pay tax remember.Which makes it £50,000 min. As for the state paying for him and his 4 kids if it all turns crap.....who do you think pays for it. I'll give you a clue.....it's not me!
Cathay housing allowance = still living in apartment
Ryanair starting salary £120K = B*******
You're the one who needs to smell the coffee, mate.
p.s the rate is currently 6.7
p.p.s you still havn't told us all who you work for!
Believe Brother
All valid points and can't argue with you on some of them. CX would never be for me though, regardless of pay. As for property advice, i'm planted well and truly near the sea but i'm all too aware the housing market may sink as fast as it rises....
Regards
BYMONEK
Last edited by BYMONEK; 30th May 2005 at 14:17.
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S Yoke - sorry mate, but I had a bit of a laugh at your figures for a Ryanair driver (not bus
) Can you back that figure up??
Oh yeah - free medical and dental on the NHS, get real. It's VERY hard to find and sign up with NHS dentist, and as for the medical side of it
Besides, why do you imagine that all Brits want to retire to Mud Island
) Can you back that figure up??Oh yeah - free medical and dental on the NHS, get real. It's VERY hard to find and sign up with NHS dentist, and as for the medical side of it
Besides, why do you imagine that all Brits want to retire to Mud Island
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Bymonek,
Before leaving EK I did a LOT of research. I suggest you do the same. Dubai is very seductive and it is very easy to bury your head in the sand and not worry about that inevitable day when you might have to leave. As for the Hong Kong airlines you can only dream of saving that kind of money.
Why not talk to the Ryan Air guys and find out the hourly rate and tax situation. Look up the top of scale for Virgin. See what a 777 driver takes in India. Talk to ANA and Dragonair. Sure, some of the jobs are less glamourous than EK, but why do you work is it to earn money or drive shinny aircraft?
Scott Fitzgerald wrote a book called the Lotus Eater, it is about you. Perhaps you should read it and change your handle.
Anyhow, I seldom write on this forum and have stated my opinion you can either give it some thought, extract your head from the sand and open your eyes or .....well ... read the book.
Good Luck
As for the original topic. Many are reacting now to the misguided policies brought in over the last 3 years more will go but only the ones that are individuals and capable of standing against the flow.
I admire and congratulate my former collegues that have shown such metal. It is EKs loss.
Before leaving EK I did a LOT of research. I suggest you do the same. Dubai is very seductive and it is very easy to bury your head in the sand and not worry about that inevitable day when you might have to leave. As for the Hong Kong airlines you can only dream of saving that kind of money.
Why not talk to the Ryan Air guys and find out the hourly rate and tax situation. Look up the top of scale for Virgin. See what a 777 driver takes in India. Talk to ANA and Dragonair. Sure, some of the jobs are less glamourous than EK, but why do you work is it to earn money or drive shinny aircraft?
Scott Fitzgerald wrote a book called the Lotus Eater, it is about you. Perhaps you should read it and change your handle.
Anyhow, I seldom write on this forum and have stated my opinion you can either give it some thought, extract your head from the sand and open your eyes or .....well ... read the book.
Good Luck
As for the original topic. Many are reacting now to the misguided policies brought in over the last 3 years more will go but only the ones that are individuals and capable of standing against the flow.
I admire and congratulate my former collegues that have shown such metal. It is EKs loss.
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Looking at Shagger Boys posts, He has obviously found the place where he wants to work. I am pleased for you. Yes you have to pay attention to what goes into the bank at the end of each month. But if it is Ryanair you work for then the money is like the service you provide. No frills.
I said in an earlier post look at the package as a whole. Maths or no maths, you have to firstly look at tax, then medical, dental, school fees, accomodation, pick up for work, tax again, choice of where to fly,(dont laugh), cost of our hotac down route compared with yours, provident fund (for what its worth) staff travel entitlements, cost of fuel. I could go on some more. But lets just look at the facts. I would be interested to see what actually goes into the account each month, BUT following that how much extra you have to pay out to cover housing, schooling, medical (lets not laugh too much about the health service you just about have in uk) or the lack of non private dentists. The fact you have to pay for your accomodation when you are down route. And to boot your expenses you have to cover too with regard to food and Bev.
Finally lets look at the high work load you have to do. Multi sectors, and little time off with max hours. I bet my stress level is less. Dont forget the cost of fuel. I fill a Merc and a 4x4 for less than half of you smart car I bet.
If you still are quids in then I really am pleased for you. There is one other thought, you have to live in the UK. Rather you than me.!!!
One other thing I forgot, how many have actually resigned. Is it getting close to 200 yet or just about 30 out of 1200.
Be interested to hear.
I said in an earlier post look at the package as a whole. Maths or no maths, you have to firstly look at tax, then medical, dental, school fees, accomodation, pick up for work, tax again, choice of where to fly,(dont laugh), cost of our hotac down route compared with yours, provident fund (for what its worth) staff travel entitlements, cost of fuel. I could go on some more. But lets just look at the facts. I would be interested to see what actually goes into the account each month, BUT following that how much extra you have to pay out to cover housing, schooling, medical (lets not laugh too much about the health service you just about have in uk) or the lack of non private dentists. The fact you have to pay for your accomodation when you are down route. And to boot your expenses you have to cover too with regard to food and Bev.
Finally lets look at the high work load you have to do. Multi sectors, and little time off with max hours. I bet my stress level is less. Dont forget the cost of fuel. I fill a Merc and a 4x4 for less than half of you smart car I bet.
If you still are quids in then I really am pleased for you. There is one other thought, you have to live in the UK. Rather you than me.!!!
One other thing I forgot, how many have actually resigned. Is it getting close to 200 yet or just about 30 out of 1200.
Be interested to hear.
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My guess is around 30 this year. Not a whole lot. But it is the trend that is looked at. Are people still resigning after the 3+8% payrise? we shall see in 2 or 3 months. People who leave today made their decission before the announcement.
More interesting is how many oz bus drivers would a Virgin Atlantic base in Sydney lure away from EK. And what wiould EK do to keep them? 20-50 is my guess...
More interesting is how many oz bus drivers would a Virgin Atlantic base in Sydney lure away from EK. And what wiould EK do to keep them? 20-50 is my guess...
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So Uplink you think 30 out of 1200 is acceptable in such a short time?
Head out of the sand,and fill your car up with cheap petrol,thats about 8-10 times the usual "attrition" rate.There is a problem.
IMHO,of course.
QB
Head out of the sand,and fill your car up with cheap petrol,thats about 8-10 times the usual "attrition" rate.There is a problem.
IMHO,of course.
QB
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Shagging: EK glamourous? You saw it on the inside; I didn't come across any glamour in the 90 hours I flew last month, just fatigued crew 'discovering' the world through bus and hotel windows.
As far as resignations are concerned, how many were there 3 years ago? Virtually none, so if the figure is a conservative 30 then that is a significant figure and a sign that EK is not the place it once was.
The rumour mill also has it that of a course of eight due to start a week or so ago NO one turned up. I realise that several have not turned up on previous courses but if this one is true then it is becoming serious.
EK cannot afford for anyone to leave or not turn up for courses if they are to sustain the growth they invisage. The combined total of the no shows to those leaving will mean that soon aircraft will be parked up.
As far as resignations are concerned, how many were there 3 years ago? Virtually none, so if the figure is a conservative 30 then that is a significant figure and a sign that EK is not the place it once was.
The rumour mill also has it that of a course of eight due to start a week or so ago NO one turned up. I realise that several have not turned up on previous courses but if this one is true then it is becoming serious.
EK cannot afford for anyone to leave or not turn up for courses if they are to sustain the growth they invisage. The combined total of the no shows to those leaving will mean that soon aircraft will be parked up.
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Shagger. The pay for a Capt at Ryanair is £90,000, this was the figure i remember from a recent Ad in Flight international. you get no perks, work your nuts off, do multiple sectors, pay tax, NI, etc......
I heard the other day that another pay increase is in the pipeline. Heard this from 2 different sources Maybe that will stem the drip drip of those leaving, and encourage some to join.
We can hope i guess.
SyB
I heard the other day that another pay increase is in the pipeline. Heard this from 2 different sources
Maybe that will stem the drip drip of those leaving, and encourage some to join.We can hope i guess.
SyB
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Bootie:
I hope you are right. However I believe to stem the flow and to attract the standard of pilots needed to fill both seats we will need a more fundamental and longer term review to include; allowances, flight pay, provident fund, promotional requirements etc.
If we don't get our act together sooner rather than later we will have some of the most modern and expensive aircraft standing idle picking up dust.
I hope you are right. However I believe to stem the flow and to attract the standard of pilots needed to fill both seats we will need a more fundamental and longer term review to include; allowances, flight pay, provident fund, promotional requirements etc.
If we don't get our act together sooner rather than later we will have some of the most modern and expensive aircraft standing idle picking up dust.
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First, I don't work for Ryan Air. Never said I did. I have some friends there though. They seem to be doing just fine financially. They don't love the job but they are there to make money.
Resignations,
I think that it is marvelous that people are not turning up for courses. Market forces are beginning to bite it would seem.
The reason people fail to turn up and others are starting to leave is because EK are paying below market. My whole point entirely. They will continue to pay below market as long as people stay/show up.
EK is glamourous. New aircraft new routes limo pickup beach type lifestyle etc.
The trouble is that EK and TCK started to factor the above "benefits" into the COS. Remember they sun shines every day speech?
The fringe benefits are fine but should never replace the bottom line
Resignations,
I think that it is marvelous that people are not turning up for courses. Market forces are beginning to bite it would seem.
The reason people fail to turn up and others are starting to leave is because EK are paying below market. My whole point entirely. They will continue to pay below market as long as people stay/show up.
EK is glamourous. New aircraft new routes limo pickup beach type lifestyle etc.
The trouble is that EK and TCK started to factor the above "benefits" into the COS. Remember they sun shines every day speech?
The fringe benefits are fine but should never replace the bottom line
Shaggin Yoke,
I agree with you. Our tax free salary would seem to equate to a bit less than the after tax salary of other Expat airline jobs.The company knows that we like the job we do, they know we enjoy the new equipment, and until recently they knew we had no-where else to go. And they took advantage of this, and our COS were altered to their advantage. Perhaps the times are a changing. We wait in hope.
I don't think we have to be so defensive about all that happens in the sand. Our job here is only as good as our next visa blood test, or how quite out dogs are (but thats another story!!!!!).
BYMONEK. It would seem that you have taken to EK like a fish to water. This is very good news. Long may it continue.
Don
I agree with you. Our tax free salary would seem to equate to a bit less than the after tax salary of other Expat airline jobs.The company knows that we like the job we do, they know we enjoy the new equipment, and until recently they knew we had no-where else to go. And they took advantage of this, and our COS were altered to their advantage. Perhaps the times are a changing. We wait in hope.
I don't think we have to be so defensive about all that happens in the sand. Our job here is only as good as our next visa blood test, or how quite out dogs are (but thats another story!!!!!).
BYMONEK. It would seem that you have taken to EK like a fish to water. This is very good news. Long may it continue.
Don
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I don't think there will ever be a rush to the door but I do think the airline must now get used to no longer being a 'final destination' for many - the steady trickle we see now will continue.
The package is lacking - I have had to use savings almost every month I've been here to support the salary - the company may put a sticking plaster on the problem if they feel they need to, but, they had an opportunity to demonstrate a will to once more make the package class leading at this years pay award and failed to do so.
The quality of life could be great but, the roster patterns and some pretty brutal flight schedules seem to mean that I don't get days off - only recovery days.
The big issue that I think will begin to assume more and more importance is that, as folks have less money to invest in private pensions/property etc, the poor performance of the provident fund and the lack of pension provision will mean many look to other places for a job that will take care of them (to some degree) in old age.
Many come to the Middle East to get ahead and provide for a better future, sadly, at the moment EK fails to provide adequately for my present, let alone my future.
The package is lacking - I have had to use savings almost every month I've been here to support the salary - the company may put a sticking plaster on the problem if they feel they need to, but, they had an opportunity to demonstrate a will to once more make the package class leading at this years pay award and failed to do so.
The quality of life could be great but, the roster patterns and some pretty brutal flight schedules seem to mean that I don't get days off - only recovery days.
The big issue that I think will begin to assume more and more importance is that, as folks have less money to invest in private pensions/property etc, the poor performance of the provident fund and the lack of pension provision will mean many look to other places for a job that will take care of them (to some degree) in old age.
Many come to the Middle East to get ahead and provide for a better future, sadly, at the moment EK fails to provide adequately for my present, let alone my future.