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I will NOT pay for a T/R

Old 28th Aug 2004, 13:56
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Angry I will NOT pay for a T/R

I would like to inform companies that we are not able or not willing to pay for a type rating.
We do NOT want to pay for a t/r if there is no job contract BEFORE the type rating.

I(WE ARE) am tired and fed up of these companies who try to sell me (US)T/R on old planes.
I am fedup of companies who try to make money from us (pilots) because they can not simply find customers to run their old planes.
IF you are busted by the governement or by commercial competition, it is your problem! if you have to file bankruptcy, bye bye. A better company will replace you and we do not care about you!

Please try to understand that we have commercial license to fly planes, it means if you want we fly for you, you have to pay us...


If you do not understand ,I resume:

WE ARE PISSED OF SUCH PRACTICES AND WE ASK YOU TO STOP TO SELL US TYPE RATINGS, WE WILL NOT PAY YOU.

thank you for your cooperation.(I do not really like to write such things, but I am really fedup of this politic)
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Old 28th Aug 2004, 16:27
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Skyman you sound a little tetchy today.
Fully agree with you that in an ideal world none of us would pay for our own type ratings, BUT some people here may have circumstances which require them to climb the ladder as fast as possible. After training costs and lack of income and mortgages hanging around their necks, the list is endless, some may feel that investing in their future to secure an income for themselves and family comes first.
Sadly it's not an ideal world, I wish it was.
Hope we all get the break we need without this extra financial burden.
Fly safe.

FF
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Old 28th Aug 2004, 17:12
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Angel

I(WE ARE)
Please speak just for yourself.

I would like to inform companies that we are not able to pay for a type rating
Thats what this rant is really about isnt it!

WE ARE PISSED OF SUCH PRACTICES AND WE ASK YOU TO STOP TO SELL US TYPE RATINGS, WE WILL NOT PAY YOU.
I for one am glad that if I wish to change types or Airline that the facilities are available for ME should I wish to use them.

.(I do not really like to write such things, but I am really fedup of this politic)
Skyman, everytime I read somthing written by you it is "such a thing"

Just try to be patient, "All good things come to those who wait"and all that. Maybe you should chillout a bit, last thing you want is your class1 being pulled for heart problems! Seriously though, maybe your attitude is holding you back a little?

I can fully appreciate most cannot/will not on principle, pay for a type rating. However nobody is forcing you too and the way the job market is going at present I would doubt you will need one in the next 12-24 months. Ether that or will will see bonds becoming the norm. (just my opinion)

Those wannabes who can afford a type rating MAY have a better chance at employment and MAY get that job sooner than someone without

I think youll find that the majority of companys who run these schemes have nice new jets and sims to do the training on and the airlines who started these schemes have brand new fleets of ether 737-800's or A319's so hardly old planes.

Regards

2WINGS


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Old 28th Aug 2004, 17:50
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Dear Skyman,

I hoped that more people said this in the past so that this sick jobmarket did not exist.
I once bought with my stupid head an EMB-120 typerating for the price of 45000 Euro's.
When I finally was in the line for upgrade to captain, the company folded.
Finding any kind of job with this airplane in Europe is very difficult.
Now I am unemployed with a dept of 65000 euro's.
I consider getting a 737 type very dangerous because when something happens with the Lcc's you are doomed.
You will have to compete with hightime 737 pilots.
So I will wait, the economy is improving and I hope there will not be so many new pilots.
Financially it is better to wait and in my case I will only accept work with bonding for any kind of airplane TR.

I say No Bucks, no Buck Rogers.

Sincerely G.J.S. Groenendijk
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Old 29th Aug 2004, 14:24
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Thumbs up

I know that Skyman is being very forceful with his post but you have to say that he has a point. It's not just that we are expected, by many carriers, to fork out for a TR these days but many of our colleagues are prepared to work for buttons once they have the said type endorsed on thier hot little licences. And the result? Our pay, terms & conditions are rapidly deteriorating once we are flying on line.

I recently 'bit the bullet' after years of trying to find a jet operator to give me a break, & being determined not to self fund a type ratng, & I capitulated for a 757 rating. Fantastic isn't it that My Travel are now laying off 156 guys all with loads of hours on 757/767s! The result: I am £20,000 lighter & still no nearer to a job on the medium haul jets. Possibly even further away than flying my T.P. around the night skys.

What about the guys who paid for other types & end up actually flying the line? Well, some have gone out to Asia to earn about £1,000 a month! Others have joined the ranks of Skyeurope to earn £800 a month! Some are even paying for the 'privilege' of flying an aircraft with 148 fare paying passengers on board. What about terms & conditions of employment? Well, try asking the Ryanair contract guys who get no sick pay, no pension plan, no holiday entitlement, no loss of licence, who have to pay to stay away from base all out of their own salary.

You see the tip of the iceberg is us paying for our ratings. It's all down hill once you have been employed because our caring sharing employers are fully aware that we are prepared to prostiute ourselves & our profession for that left hand seat. No replies please from the snotty nosed, short trouser brigade. When you grow up & have a living to make to pay for your mortgage & a decent family life & you are not still relying on 'The Bank of Dad' to fund you you will realise that by paying for our own type ratings we have seriously damaged our long term careers.
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Old 29th Aug 2004, 15:16
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Angel

And paying for an instructors rating and working for £5p/h to build up hours isn't the same!?!

Going to Ryanair to build up some jet hours isnít (that) bad an idea. If you want to fly for Virgin/BA/Monarch etc. you need good hours on type. Which youíre not going to get other than flying for an airline of sorts.

This is a cut-throat industry im afraid, nobody owes you a crust. I guess its a little like an apprenticeship, you start off on poor pay and unfavourable conditions then when youíve got the experience they ether offer you better terms and pay or you give THEM the flick and go elsewhere.

If youíve got qualifications and experience then itís not too difficult to find work. How do you get qualifications and experience? Well you ether put up with the bulls hit, get lucky or go the easy option and do another job!

2WINGS

Last edited by 2WingsOnMyWagon; 29th Aug 2004 at 15:49.
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Old 29th Aug 2004, 17:38
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Yes. Interesting posts. And where are BALPA when all this is going on?
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Old 29th Aug 2004, 18:31
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Type Ratings

The situation we are now faced with is simply a function of market forces, and what the employer can get away with to protect the bottom line.

Unless and until demand begins to exceed supply, don't expect any rapid rethink on this issue from some companies.

From their point of view, why should they folk out cash, when they
can persuade pilots to pay for it themselves? Just what loyalty this generates is an other matter.

Having said that, it is out of order to charge for applying/interview/simulator assessment.

Any union is only as strong as the members. Without their positive support, significant changes are unlikely to occur.
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Old 29th Aug 2004, 19:00
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Good sound stuff 2 Wings

Fully agree, went down the instructor route myself to earn a pittance in a job with little or no security. I consider it part of my apprenticeship in securing a RHS some time in the future.

Work from the bottom up, gain experience on the way, see how commercial operations work in real life, all part of the learning curve.

If it makes sound sense and you have some experience why not go the SSTR route if it gains you £10000 a year extra.

Potter "When you grow up & have a living to make to pay for your mortgage & a decent family life & you are not still relying on 'The Bank of Dad' to fund you you will realise that by paying for our own type ratings we have seriously damaged our long term careers."

Can't agree with that, I have a big mortgage soon to be twice as big and zero family life at present because I chose to instruct, with 2 kids as well to support do you think <£10000 as an instructor is sufficient? nope thought not, neither does my bank
I would fund a TR like a shot if there was a guarantee of a position at the end of it. Guess I won't be funding my own for a moment.

All the best,

FF
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 17:56
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The old route of instructing for a pittance was an honourable one - there's precious little money for anyone in the local flight school game, so it's perfectly reasonable for those who need experience to offer their labour in exchange for that flying. However, Ryanair et al are making very serious profits, and their company executives are salting away very handsome pension funds. There is absolutely no reason why they couldn't and shouldn't pay for the type training of their chosen employees - except that you lot will save them the bother. And then you'll work for next to nothing while they make a profit on your back.

If you want to work for Virgin/Monarch/BA etc, and expect your type ratings to be paid for when you join, and to get a pension, sick pay, time off, allowances, etc, you may be disappointed when you get there as your willingness to work for nothing is affecting the market right now, and the big boys are starting to take notice - witness BA's recent 'tightening' of their pay and conditions, and recruitment of already-typed DEPs.

I have my contract, and I retire in the not-too-distant future, so I guess I shouldn't really care what your prostitution does to this industry, but I do. We at Virgin fought like hell to improve our lot, through BALPA, and we succeeded. The thoughless actions of those who wish to get into aviation at any cost are undermining all that good work.

Just remember, one day you'll have to explain to your children why your chosen career no longer pays a decent living wage. Were you part of the problem?

Scroggs
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 18:08
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2WingsOnMyWagon:

"I guess its a little like an apprenticeship, you start off on poor pay and unfavourable conditions then when youíve got the experience they ether offer you better terms and pay or you give THEM the flick and go elsewhere"


I should hope you regard flying an FR 73 as an apprenticeship. Flying metal this heavy is no apprenticeship, we're not talking Cessenas here. We're talking about the likes of FR screwing the industry. And if it continues, you'll be giving no-one the flick as everyone else will be just as bad.

Wake up people, you pay for your rating, you are directly contributing to your own less than rosy future.

Good post there Scroggs
 
Old 30th Aug 2004, 19:29
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Skyman,

Keep looking and keep faith..your turn will come..believe me..it happens when you least expect it..

In the meanwhile,instructing is a very good solution ..
Saty in touch..you have my email..i am scheduled for a left seat in March..ill be there to give the word for you when you get more time in.

Regards,

M>85
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 19:56
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I am going to hate myself for saying it, but, very nicely put Scroggs.

I have been trying to say the same thing for ages. Why won't anyone listen? Where is BALPA or the IPA? Why do I bother?
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 20:56
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Maybe one way to turn around this nonsense of paying for the privilege to work by paying for your Typerating is to inform the public about the real situation in the flying business.

Let the media, study/career counsellors know how it really works at this moment so the number of wannabees will decrease.

If BALPA/IALPA would make an effort in informing the right channels/media the market will favour pilots in the future and the negotiations will become easier.

We need to attack those "we need a lot of pilots because of the pension bulge" nonsense stories which turn up every time an aviation specialist from the newspaper visits a flight school.

Last year such a story appeared again coincidentally one day before the new website from the KLM flight academy was launched.

Just my toughts,

Cheers JB
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 21:36
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Below is an e-mail I received from parc recruitment recently.
Included is a cunning invitation to pay them 800 eurodollars to attend a interview and simcheck for air Asia, Yes a few blokes got jobs but a lot did not and I myself did not bother as the whole thing is a fine example of profiteering

Air Asia Recruitment

As you are now aware Air Asia will undergo significant expansion over the next 12 to 18 months.

The first officer recruitment positions will begin training at the end of July. To gain a place on the next course, candidates will undergo the following:

Aptitude Testing
Psychological assessment
Simulator assessment

These will take place over 2 days in Dublin with the simulator check, taking place on the B737-200.

Those who attain the required standard on all assessments are guaranteed a position on the Air Asia first officer programme.

The cost of the assessment programme and simulator check is Ä800. This fee is non-refundable and is payable in advance.

Selection will be on a "first come" basis. More details about this assessment will be released closer to the time. Please ensure you send us a completed application form if you are interested in this programme.

The training programme for successful candidates will be as follows:

LOCATION: DUBLIN

A) First Aid
Initial CRM course (2 days)
Initial security course
Dangerous goods training
Wet drills
Fire & Smoke training

Course duration: A maximum of 5 days

LOCATION: DUBLIN

B) Audio visual training
10 days ground school training
1 day exam plus TCAS and EGPWS
1 day performance plus weight and balance and exam

LOCATION: LONDON OR PALMA (TBA)

C) Simulator Training
12 four hour sessions
1 four hour LST (Licence Skills Test)


LOCATION: SWEDEN
D) Base Check
A minimum of 6 landings or when the required standard is achieved


N.B: For those attending the assessments please bring a letter from your financial institution verifying that sufficient funds are in place to complete the course.
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 23:18
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Don't get me wrong; I well appreciate that in a buyer's market (as it has been for the past three years or so) a paid-for type rating may have been the factor that put you ahead of the queue when it came to getting a job. The same was true in '89-'90 when Air Europe and Dan Air went down and the whole employment market was on its knees. Arguably, the situation recently has been worse than that time.

However, the cost of a type rating has risen exponentially with increasing legislation and the expansion of the numbers of investors expecting to reap a return out of the unfortunates who buy the training. The job market declined so far and so quickly that many people espoused the notion of gaining experience 'for free' (i.e. working without being paid), and it's now becoming the norm.

Well, surprise! The market is now getting much healthier for newbies. The airlines would love to convince you that they can't possibly afford to train you and pay you at the same time, but, as more and more of you realise that they're talking complete bollocks, they will find that they have to stump up.

The argument between Ryanair and its pilots about union representation is probably the most important event in British - even European - aviation right now. It is about the principle of a fair payment for fair work, and the protection that European employment legislation is supposed to give you, without employer intimidation. The pilots (with BALPA and IALPA help) will win, though some may be hurt in the process. The outcome will fundamentally change the way ab-initio recruitment works in UK, and rid it of Ryanair's Dickensian approach. The least you can do is support this process and refuse to pay out for interviews, assessments and training that airlines should accept as reasonable costs. It's a big ask, but it must be done if things are to improve for all of you.

Scroggs
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Old 31st Aug 2004, 00:47
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The whole "this industry does not owe you a living" statement pops up every once in awhile...fair enough, there is some sense in it...but being disgusted/angry about being expected to pay large sums so someone will simply glance at your CV or pay huge sums to get a type rating and some hours on type is not the same thing as wanting an easy ride. Not even slightly. Especially bearing in mind many have made massive, sometimes almost crippling, financial sacrifices up until this point already.

In an ideal world, most airline's would carefully select their potential pilots, train them and treat them as an investment...the way most reputable companies do it. Of course, this doesn't happen in reality. Bugger. Okay then, we'll have to pay for our basic licence and training - not fun but fair enough. It's when you hear stories of airlines charging low-houred pilots to fly for them for 100 hours or so...with passengers onboard. Yes, the pilot PAYS to work for the company all day.

I understand the opinion that some people have that it's good to have the option to do things like this if, for example, someone really wants to get up and on the ladder quickly if there are family commitments etc. but I can't help thinking these practices simply further degrade Ts & Cs and the profession as a whole. The words foot, own and shoot come to mind...

All a bit worrying for a wannabe...

V1R

P.S.

Good post scroggs - I agree and am sliiiiightly more optimisitc things will be that bit better when these issues will directly affect me...of course, they could very easily be that bit worse as well.

V1R

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Old 31st Aug 2004, 03:06
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Angel

Maximus
I should hope you regard flying an FR 73 as an apprenticeship. Flying metal this heavy is no apprenticeship
Iím not calling pilots of smaller/older aircraft apprentices. What Iím trying to imply is that, if youíre low houred and starting your first job I would say it is a little like an apprenticeship no matter if the aircraft is a PA28 or an A340. If you misunderstood this, I apologise.

Scroggs, I appreciate your honest and unemotional posts. I feel this is a very difficult subject to debate as pilots we want the best for our colleagues (present and future) and ourselves of course. I agree that it is totally wrong to pay for a sim check, interviews etc, but as mentioned it is a buyers market and as long as people are willing to pay then the airline in question isnít going to stop applying the charge. One thing I think we may see is a potential pilot being put off by the spiralling cost of training compared against the decreasing pay scale. (Thatís if certain FTO's stop promising jobs at the end of their overpriced courses!)

Ryanair is becoming a stepping-stone to the more prestigious airlines but maybe if these prestigious airlines stopped hoovering up all the experienced pilots and started their own cadet schemes we would definatly see a reduction in applications to FR. As long as MOL can replace pilots with fresh blood heís not going to care!

I know a few experienced pilots who have become desperate enough to self fund a type rating and some of them got work through it. So for them it was a worthwhile thing to do, but I would only do it if I could safely afford it.

From what I can tell the cost of TR's are going down, the cost of an A320/ B737 being around the 20k mark, however please correct me if Iím wrong.

I hope this thread can stay balanced and objective

Regards
2 WINGS
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Old 31st Aug 2004, 10:25
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Stick to your guns Skyman. I never payed for a rating and never will. I refused to purchase even an MCC as I strongly believe a quality company will cover this in their type rating. Hasnt done me any harm. Still in my twenties and exactly where I want to be (although a warmer climate would be nice ) Stick with it mate and you will find yourself with a quality outfit, less debt and actually ENJOYING the job.

MAX
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Old 31st Aug 2004, 11:32
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It's unlikely that the established airlines will ever set up cadetship schemes that would supply more than a tiny proportion of their pilot requirements. For airlines like Virgin Atlantic, which are entirely or predominantly longhaul, it is essential that their pilots come with a great deal of handling experience of reasonable-sized aircraft - because they sure as hell aren't going to get any after they join! Ryanair, Easyjet and most of the charter airlines have traditionally been used as a stepping stone to BA and the like, and that's not likely to change for the reasons above.

As for experienced pilots funding their own retraining, that's always happened in times when jobs were hard to come by. If you have a few thousand hours on, say, 737s and you're after a 757 job, the rating may get you there - it's certainly has a lot more clout when wielded by an experienced airline pilot (even without significant hours on type) than it does when held by a newbie. Bear in mind also that pilots taking this course of action are likely to be looking for contract jobs overseas rather than long-term employment with a stable European carrier.

2WOMW, you're right; the increasing costs of getting a first jet job will eventually cause the supply of self-funding pilots who'll pay to work to dry up! Even Ryanair will realise this, and, as competition for new pilots hots up with airlines' recovery and expansion, they will have to improve the package to attract their share of the available pool. The trouble is, they are so anti-pilot that they will drag their heels on this, and this is just one of the things that union participation will help to sort out.

The fact that TRs are coming down in cost is, I reckon, a symptom of the increasing numbers of TRTOs in the marketplace, and not really (yet) a function of reducing numbers of self-sponsored students. That will happen, though, and the first signs of that will be the removal of some of the weaker TRTOs from the scene.

This is a big subject, and it's not going to get sorted by one thread on PPRuNe, but it will help if more of you begin to understand the problems that paying to work causes - and the effect it will definitely have on the rewards you presumably look forward to in later life. Look at the music or acting professions for examples of this; the end result is a very few high-earners and vast numbers living on benefits hoping for an occasional period of employment. However, most musicians and actors don't spend 100k getting their skills!

Scroggs
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