I will NOT pay for a T/R
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i have just read this whole topic from the beginning and it is very interesting to read the different biases.
i could not find a job as a low time pilot in the uk, so ventured to africa and have been flying here for 3 years gaining experience in the contract world.
what i find amazing in the uk is the fact that the pilot who has just completed his/her cpl/ir/me feels it his/her RIGHT to have their first job on a boeing or airbus.
is general aviation, flight instructing or the contract world below them these days.
i think gaining some 'flying experience' outside of 'pushing buttons' would be of great value and if everyone did their 1000 hour apprenticeship on the bottom rung of the ladder then there may not be a need for 200 hour pilots to buy themselves a complex type rating with line experience.
just a thought, and i dont want to sound out of line here, but from a captains point of view, if you took away the qualified f/o who is sitting in the jump seat for the line training, does he consider the 200 hour newly rated pilot capable of dealing with any situation.
i just think back to when i had 200 hours, major failure on a boeing/airbus....? not sure.
i could not find a job as a low time pilot in the uk, so ventured to africa and have been flying here for 3 years gaining experience in the contract world.
what i find amazing in the uk is the fact that the pilot who has just completed his/her cpl/ir/me feels it his/her RIGHT to have their first job on a boeing or airbus.
is general aviation, flight instructing or the contract world below them these days.
i think gaining some 'flying experience' outside of 'pushing buttons' would be of great value and if everyone did their 1000 hour apprenticeship on the bottom rung of the ladder then there may not be a need for 200 hour pilots to buy themselves a complex type rating with line experience.
just a thought, and i dont want to sound out of line here, but from a captains point of view, if you took away the qualified f/o who is sitting in the jump seat for the line training, does he consider the 200 hour newly rated pilot capable of dealing with any situation.
i just think back to when i had 200 hours, major failure on a boeing/airbus....? not sure.
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studi I can only speak about the UK system with any authority; I have no depth of knowledge of the systems in Germany or France, or other European countries.
SID Yes, I pretty much go along with you - with one tiny exception. I was offered a 737 TR in 1989/90 (or thereabouts) for about 4.5K. I don't think it was a 'mates' deal, so I can only assume that was the going rate at the time. As I'd just sold a smallish house in South Yorkshire for 100k, I reckon the TR/house price ratio was looking pretty good back then! Of course, this was just before the collapses of Air Europe, Dan Air and the house market, which just goes to show that you can prove anything you like with figures!
south coast the expectations of wannabes in UK are driven by the fact that the UK has a great many jet airlines (probably as many as in all of Africa!), and surprisingly little in the way of commuter and night freight TP operators. The balance is quite different to anywhere else in the world. But your point is apposite; people do need to put some sort of reality check on their dream!
Scroggs
SID Yes, I pretty much go along with you - with one tiny exception. I was offered a 737 TR in 1989/90 (or thereabouts) for about 4.5K. I don't think it was a 'mates' deal, so I can only assume that was the going rate at the time. As I'd just sold a smallish house in South Yorkshire for 100k, I reckon the TR/house price ratio was looking pretty good back then! Of course, this was just before the collapses of Air Europe, Dan Air and the house market, which just goes to show that you can prove anything you like with figures!
south coast the expectations of wannabes in UK are driven by the fact that the UK has a great many jet airlines (probably as many as in all of Africa!), and surprisingly little in the way of commuter and night freight TP operators. The balance is quite different to anywhere else in the world. But your point is apposite; people do need to put some sort of reality check on their dream!
Scroggs
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Let everyone fund and complete their own basic training then use a professional third party selection company such as CTC run your selection and type rating with the burden of risk resting initially on the candidate.
Just remind us again how much you paid for your selection and type rating again www, was it nothing? I am sure with your suggestion then, you won't be fazed when you have to take the burden of risk when you decide it is time to move onto the 777 or even have to pay for your own command course at your current employer.
If you were still on this side of the traing wall I can imagine what your reaction would be to the current situation, and I am pretty certain you would not be advocating that the burden of risk be with the candidate.
I have said it before and I'll say it again, the only pilots who seem comfortable advocating paying for type ratings are those who have never had to pay for theirs.
Flypuppy - I was bonded, the TRSS just makes you get a loan which you pay off with a totally 'extra' £1,000 a month in your pay check. You leave the bank chases you - I can't get excited about the difference. I suppose it is worse that getting chopped in training will end up costing you. But so few do that its not a bid deal in reality. I bemoan the growth of self funded type ratings in general - as you well know.
Studi - indeed lets wait and see if BA do bring back a fully sponsored cadet scheme. 2 years of training an assessment - yeah whatever. A load of school instructors with a vested interest in seeing you pass the course monitored by a changing handful of airline pilots not really wanting to chop anybody. I've seen many airline cadet courses and taught some to fly. They were under a heck of a lot less pressure than the self sponsored guys with no job and an angry looking bank manager.
I'm not envious of airline cadets - some are my best friends and I used to make my living out of them. But they did distort the market.
1) Selection was often poor.
2) They perverted the natural order of progression to a large jet via turboprop, GA or other means.
3) They increased the risk and lessened the prospects of self sponsored pilots.
4) Their eligibility criteria of age, qualification and background were inherently racist, sexist and ageist without good cause.
5) It created some pilots who drifted into the job, had no appreciation of how difficult it is for most to get there and no sympathy at all for those who didn't quite or who ended up in 'lesser' flying jobs.
Naturally the great majority of sponsored folk were great people who went on to make excellent pilots and integrated wonderfully into their airlines demographics.
But the same can be true in the future without the presence of a fully sponsored cadet scheme as we have known it. A fact which I believe and am enthusiastic about.
Cheers
WWW
Studi - indeed lets wait and see if BA do bring back a fully sponsored cadet scheme. 2 years of training an assessment - yeah whatever. A load of school instructors with a vested interest in seeing you pass the course monitored by a changing handful of airline pilots not really wanting to chop anybody. I've seen many airline cadet courses and taught some to fly. They were under a heck of a lot less pressure than the self sponsored guys with no job and an angry looking bank manager.
I'm not envious of airline cadets - some are my best friends and I used to make my living out of them. But they did distort the market.
1) Selection was often poor.
2) They perverted the natural order of progression to a large jet via turboprop, GA or other means.
3) They increased the risk and lessened the prospects of self sponsored pilots.
4) Their eligibility criteria of age, qualification and background were inherently racist, sexist and ageist without good cause.
5) It created some pilots who drifted into the job, had no appreciation of how difficult it is for most to get there and no sympathy at all for those who didn't quite or who ended up in 'lesser' flying jobs.
Naturally the great majority of sponsored folk were great people who went on to make excellent pilots and integrated wonderfully into their airlines demographics.
But the same can be true in the future without the presence of a fully sponsored cadet scheme as we have known it. A fact which I believe and am enthusiastic about.
Cheers
WWW
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It created some pilots who drifted into the job, had no appreciation of how difficult it is for most to get there and no sympathy at all for those who didn't quite or who ended up in 'lesser' flying jobs.
South coast
You make a fair point and in a perfect world everyone would work his or her way up the ladder. However the majority of GA flying doesn’t pay enough to cover most peoples training debts so its ether the airlines or unrelated work with perhaps a little bit of instructing part time. Also I think it’s a good thing to take someone who has no real preconceptions and mold them to your airlines SOP's and gain their experience from said airlines training department. JAA/EASA are looking into a co-pilots licence for probably this reason and I would say it might have the knock on effect of increasing pay scales for GA pilots (dont hold your breath though!).
2WINGS
PPRuNe Handmaiden
www,
You may want to recheck what the TRSS costs.
You don't get extra at all, you're on a lower pay scale and your wage is topped up to near (but not the same) what the non TRSS pilots get.
What eJ pay you doesn't cover the interest that the loan costs. You're left with a short fall of around 2-3,000 pounds. That comes from you.
Sure, it doesn't sound like much but it is a difference.
You may want to recheck what the TRSS costs.
You don't get extra at all, you're on a lower pay scale and your wage is topped up to near (but not the same) what the non TRSS pilots get.
What eJ pay you doesn't cover the interest that the loan costs. You're left with a short fall of around 2-3,000 pounds. That comes from you.
Sure, it doesn't sound like much but it is a difference.
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Grrr,
I keep reading this. What are we talking about here? 29? 34? 46? or 86? Studi, what is your age? I would be very surprised to hear that any confident successful and intelligent person in their 40s or 50s found they found it more difficult to learn new things. I can understand that somebody down in the dumps, fed up with their lot or lacking in confidence because they keep getting berated for being past 35 (old?!?! good grief!) and allegedly over the hill. Even my Granddad at the ripe old age of 76 taught himself Spanish. He is now fluent at 82.
Don't bother quoting scientific studies and experts opinions. If there is one thing that one does learn as one progresses through one's life it is that experts are just as clueless, but with lingo.
Tarra!
HWD.
P.S. You may have detected some emotion there too
since the learning ability lessens with age.
Don't bother quoting scientific studies and experts opinions. If there is one thing that one does learn as one progresses through one's life it is that experts are just as clueless, but with lingo.
Tarra!
HWD.
P.S. You may have detected some emotion there too
Reddo - as far as I am aware if you joined ezy under the TRSS with say 1000hrs TT you would earn, conservatively, basic:
£28k yr1 + £6k sector pay
£35.6k yr 2 yr 3 yr 4 + £6k sector pay
£62k Yr 5 +£3k length of service bonus + £10k sector pay
--- end of reduced salary ---
Yr 6 £64k + £6k length of service bonus + £10k sector pay
Yr 10 £64k + £10k length of service bonus + £10k sector pay
In addition under the TRSS you would be paid £4,600 a year to pay off your £23k training loan in 5 years of reduced salary, 5 * 4.6k = £23k
OK - the interest might be on top of that, I accept.
Nevertheless. Which airline recruiting over the last 2years or present has offered a better deal and how many people have they hired? Compared to ezy's 100+ recruits.
----------
Studi
1) Selection via something akin to CTC with 6 months on line before firm job offer rather outperforms cadet style selection. By a factor of about 50.
2) A view shared by all but cadet entry pilots. Even some of those later lament the rungs they have skipped.
3) The demise of cadets would resolve the poisoness widespread in the business since their inception.
4) Telling someone at 28 or 38 or 48 that they aren't able to cope with a jet type rating course is pure unsubstaniated wilfull nonsense based on guesswork and superstition. And totally unrelated military practice. You'll find numerous problems with race and gender recruitment in past cadet recruitment programs. How many black people read the Sunday Time in the mid 90's when BA were advertising their cadet scheme? Was selection gender normed in X or Y airlines? Nah, not a chance.
5) Hmm, so you say. It takes all types. Most people agree though that a somewhat sustained inate interest in piloting is desireable in someone you chose to pick out of the high street and place in the flightdeck of an airliner. This has not always been the case.
Yes a cadet has less pressure than a self sponsored.
How many cadets WERE chucked off your course? The answer is about 3%. Not something to lose much sleep about. No bank manager. No job worries.
Plus cadets often get extra hours on their course as standard, plus the best instructors, plus program priority, plus the benefit of excellent course mates, plus the motivation of knowing there is a Boeing with their name on it waiting 6 months in the future.
So don't go asking me or anyone else to cry for cadets under pressure.
---------------
There is room and reason for integrated, modular, sponsored, self sponsored and monster raving loonies in the world of aviation.
Cheers
WWW
£28k yr1 + £6k sector pay
£35.6k yr 2 yr 3 yr 4 + £6k sector pay
£62k Yr 5 +£3k length of service bonus + £10k sector pay
--- end of reduced salary ---
Yr 6 £64k + £6k length of service bonus + £10k sector pay
Yr 10 £64k + £10k length of service bonus + £10k sector pay
In addition under the TRSS you would be paid £4,600 a year to pay off your £23k training loan in 5 years of reduced salary, 5 * 4.6k = £23k
OK - the interest might be on top of that, I accept.
Nevertheless. Which airline recruiting over the last 2years or present has offered a better deal and how many people have they hired? Compared to ezy's 100+ recruits.
----------
Studi
1) Selection via something akin to CTC with 6 months on line before firm job offer rather outperforms cadet style selection. By a factor of about 50.
2) A view shared by all but cadet entry pilots. Even some of those later lament the rungs they have skipped.
3) The demise of cadets would resolve the poisoness widespread in the business since their inception.
4) Telling someone at 28 or 38 or 48 that they aren't able to cope with a jet type rating course is pure unsubstaniated wilfull nonsense based on guesswork and superstition. And totally unrelated military practice. You'll find numerous problems with race and gender recruitment in past cadet recruitment programs. How many black people read the Sunday Time in the mid 90's when BA were advertising their cadet scheme? Was selection gender normed in X or Y airlines? Nah, not a chance.
5) Hmm, so you say. It takes all types. Most people agree though that a somewhat sustained inate interest in piloting is desireable in someone you chose to pick out of the high street and place in the flightdeck of an airliner. This has not always been the case.
Yes a cadet has less pressure than a self sponsored.
How many cadets WERE chucked off your course? The answer is about 3%. Not something to lose much sleep about. No bank manager. No job worries.
Plus cadets often get extra hours on their course as standard, plus the best instructors, plus program priority, plus the benefit of excellent course mates, plus the motivation of knowing there is a Boeing with their name on it waiting 6 months in the future.
So don't go asking me or anyone else to cry for cadets under pressure.
---------------
There is room and reason for integrated, modular, sponsored, self sponsored and monster raving loonies in the world of aviation.
Cheers
WWW
Last edited by Wee Weasley Welshman; 6th Sep 2004 at 14:49.
Another worrier is the temptation which must exist - once you start taking money from your employees - to gold plate the cost of the TR. After all, you're selling it so you have a fiduciary duty to your shareholders to maximise profits! I wonder how soon (if not already) we will hear of someone at a school discovering that other TR candidates from the open market have paid less than they have...
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SC,
Had to look that up. Even word didn\'t know it!
Anyway, to get to the point. I see this is a distinct possibility with Ryanair and their approved TR supplier list. However, the EJ scheme pretty fair to me: If you stay you get the majority of the money back.
fiduciary
Anyway, to get to the point. I see this is a distinct possibility with Ryanair and their approved TR supplier list. However, the EJ scheme pretty fair to me: If you stay you get the majority of the money back.
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WWW - you seem to have a problem with cadets and sponsorships from zero hours.
They are all about QUALITY. Any retard with a rich family can get onto a self-sponsored course. They may not be suited to the job, they may be plain incompetant, yet they will still come out with an fATPL.
So you have a situation where lots of fATPL holders out there, some are good, some are not.
Then you have a bunch of quality talented guys who want to be pilots, but do not have the funds to complete the training integrated and/or are not willing to slave for a decade on subsistence wages building experience.
Then you have quality guys who may be able to secure the money against their parents house or something. But they to are not going to embark on the training because they are afraid of finding themselves unemployed. They are not prepared to take the risk.
The answers to all these problems are cadet scheme, like CTC. They will only allow quality guys on the course and provide them with a fast track to the RHS and a much better way of paying for the training.
The quickest and least risky way into the industry for the cadet and a guaranteed quality pilot for the sponsoring airline. Perfect.
They are all about QUALITY. Any retard with a rich family can get onto a self-sponsored course. They may not be suited to the job, they may be plain incompetant, yet they will still come out with an fATPL.
So you have a situation where lots of fATPL holders out there, some are good, some are not.
Then you have a bunch of quality talented guys who want to be pilots, but do not have the funds to complete the training integrated and/or are not willing to slave for a decade on subsistence wages building experience.
Then you have quality guys who may be able to secure the money against their parents house or something. But they to are not going to embark on the training because they are afraid of finding themselves unemployed. They are not prepared to take the risk.
The answers to all these problems are cadet scheme, like CTC. They will only allow quality guys on the course and provide them with a fast track to the RHS and a much better way of paying for the training.
The quickest and least risky way into the industry for the cadet and a guaranteed quality pilot for the sponsoring airline. Perfect.
Lets not get sidetracked into the tunnel of oblivion which is cadetships.
Fact is they are are likely not to reapear in the format we last knew them - not in the UK at least.
I think there are some good reasons and good things related to that fact.
Studi - no airline including DHL ever had to ground aircraft because they couldn't find pilots. Not ever.
Cheers
WWW
Fact is they are are likely not to reapear in the format we last knew them - not in the UK at least.
I think there are some good reasons and good things related to that fact.
Studi - no airline including DHL ever had to ground aircraft because they couldn't find pilots. Not ever.
Cheers
WWW
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WWW or anyone who knows:
One last question on cadetships.
What is the difference between the current CTC scheme and the old BA,BMI cadet schemes?? Is there any difference apart from the CTC 60k bond which is repaid over 7yrs upon employment??
Cheers
One last question on cadetships.
What is the difference between the current CTC scheme and the old BA,BMI cadet schemes?? Is there any difference apart from the CTC 60k bond which is repaid over 7yrs upon employment??
Cheers
Guest
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@High Wing Drifter: As you seem to doubt the relevance of scientifical expertise, I'm sure you also think that scientifical evidence for fatigue of flight crew is rubbish.
FWIW I also laughed my little darned socks off at the HPL implication that older people look over their bifocals and ruminate and cogitate on the nature of the emergency before comming to an accurate assessment. Whereas the youngster leaps to an inapporpriate conclusion ending in the deaths of all on board.
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And back on to the subject of Type Ratings....
Well if their not willing to graft for the money then they obviously don’t want it enough. Aviation doesn’t need these sorts anyway, there are enough people who have saved/acquired funds who are 'quality' and if there were jobs available would be working. As for "rich retards" as it was so eloquently written. Most of these have shelled out on an overpriced course, which could have paid for 2 type ratings! Also anyone who has qualified for a CPL/IR is hardly a retard! Bora you seem to have a low opinion of fellow pilots especially those who qualified off their own backs. Why is this?
The quickest least risky way (for the airlines) is for pilots to pay for their own training and type rating hence why EZY and FR, being low risk airlines, take the majority in this way. Very few new pilots to EZY are supplied by the CTC cadet scheme; most are direct entry and the CTC TR scheme.
2WINGS
Then you have a bunch of quality talented guys who want to be pilots, but do not have the funds to complete the training integrated and/or are not willing to slave for a decade on subsistence wages building experience.
. Most of these have shelled out on an overpriced course, which could have paid for 2 type ratings! Also anyone who has qualified for a CPL/IR is hardly a retard! Bora you seem to have a low opinion of fellow pilots especially those who qualified off their own backs. Why is this?
The quickest and least risky way into the industry for the cadet and a guaranteed quality pilot for the sponsoring airline.
2WINGS
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woow,
so many answers. thanks to all of you telling me to be patient.I know, I am not very patient, but my patience has his limits.
OK, these last 2 weeks, I have received some answers from companies asking me to come with 1500-2000 hours of heavy jet.
and to make fun of me, and to put me more down, they said: "reapply when you will have these hours"!!!??.
these bunch of idiots have not understant that if nobody hire you, there is no way to build the time they ask for.The usual catch 22.
OHHH!or maybe I should rent a B737 and practice some touch and goe at Heathrow until I get my 1500h??? what an idiot I am!!! how much cost a B737 to rent?
THIS IS RIDICULOUS! AND YES I AM PISSED OF BY THESE PEOPLE WHO MAKE FUN OF US.
Believe me, I do not like to moan on the internet, but they push me to the limit and I want be sure that companies and airlines who read me, know what I think about such "unmoral" practices.
I am building a website where I will post names of airlines who play these little games with us! so watch out! ...
Good luck to all of you, I return to my copy machine for more CV to send and see who is going to be the stupidest airlines of the month.
so many answers. thanks to all of you telling me to be patient.I know, I am not very patient, but my patience has his limits.
OK, these last 2 weeks, I have received some answers from companies asking me to come with 1500-2000 hours of heavy jet.
and to make fun of me, and to put me more down, they said: "reapply when you will have these hours"!!!??.
these bunch of idiots have not understant that if nobody hire you, there is no way to build the time they ask for.The usual catch 22.
OHHH!or maybe I should rent a B737 and practice some touch and goe at Heathrow until I get my 1500h??? what an idiot I am!!! how much cost a B737 to rent?
THIS IS RIDICULOUS! AND YES I AM PISSED OF BY THESE PEOPLE WHO MAKE FUN OF US.
Believe me, I do not like to moan on the internet, but they push me to the limit and I want be sure that companies and airlines who read me, know what I think about such "unmoral" practices.
I am building a website where I will post names of airlines who play these little games with us! so watch out! ...
Good luck to all of you, I return to my copy machine for more CV to send and see who is going to be the stupidest airlines of the month.
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Skyman68,
You are going to hate me for saying this, but you really need to sit down and breath into a paper bag for a while.
Nobody owes you a living anymore than they owe me one. If a company replies to your presumably unsolicited application for employment with a polite reply that you do not meet their requirements which they then specify, and further invite you to re-apply when you do meet them. That is not making fun of you, it is dignifying your application with a reply albeit perhaps a "stock" one. Many companies do specify high requirements with regards to flight hours/experience. That is their right, and it may well be linked to the insurance premiums those companies pay for liability cover.
Without going in depth into the rest of your tirade, you should wake up to the reality that most if not all airlines are looking for calm balanced and mature people to occupy their flight deck positions. Try reading your posts again and ask yourself if you believe you come across as such ?
As for your proposed website, well it might be a good outlet for your apparant rage, but do you really think anyone cares ? You might better spend your time on planning an attack on the job market as it really exists as opposed to how you wish it did, and composing a CV that sells you as a positive asset as they might view you.
You are going to hate me for saying this, but you really need to sit down and breath into a paper bag for a while.
Nobody owes you a living anymore than they owe me one. If a company replies to your presumably unsolicited application for employment with a polite reply that you do not meet their requirements which they then specify, and further invite you to re-apply when you do meet them. That is not making fun of you, it is dignifying your application with a reply albeit perhaps a "stock" one. Many companies do specify high requirements with regards to flight hours/experience. That is their right, and it may well be linked to the insurance premiums those companies pay for liability cover.
Without going in depth into the rest of your tirade, you should wake up to the reality that most if not all airlines are looking for calm balanced and mature people to occupy their flight deck positions. Try reading your posts again and ask yourself if you believe you come across as such ?
As for your proposed website, well it might be a good outlet for your apparant rage, but do you really think anyone cares ? You might better spend your time on planning an attack on the job market as it really exists as opposed to how you wish it did, and composing a CV that sells you as a positive asset as they might view you.
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'Wannabe doesn't get flying job because he doesn't have enough hours'
Not exactly a hot news story, is it Skyman? You're one of many thousands. And with your attitude, you'll stay unemployed.
Scroggs
Not exactly a hot news story, is it Skyman? You're one of many thousands. And with your attitude, you'll stay unemployed.
Scroggs