Solo practice of stall recovery

[Centaurus]

Discussing flying school training syllabus the other day and I was surprised to find out that some flying schools do not allow students doing GFPT/PPL training to practice solo stallling and recoveries. They say it is too risky?. .Another school "permits" solo stall practice but not "advanced" stalls. What the hell are advanced stalls and what's the problem if they have already done this dual?. .. .Isn't this what Competency Based Training so beloved by CASA, is supposed to be all about? If the student is competent to safely execute all types of stalls and their recoveries, then he gets a tick in the appropriate page of his Progress Sheet. If he is thus deemed "competent" then what is the big deal about letting the student practice these sequences solo? . .. . Are the flying schools breeding a nation of pilot wimps or is there a real danger in allowing a student to practice solo stall recoveries?. .I would have thought that solo flight training in stall recoveries was an invaluable experience.. .. .Another school will not permit students to practice short field landings solo unless they add a few knots on to the threshold speed "for safety reasons". Jesus Wept! Already the threshold speed for short field landings is the normal speed used in the Performance charts -that is 1.3Vs - which is what most GA aircraft and big jets are certified to use. . .. .Yet another school requires student pilots to fly the three degree T-VASIS slope on the Cessna 150/172 et al, even though it needs almost cruise power in these Cessnas with full flap to maintain three degrees. GA in Australia is a crazy business sometimes..

[Dogimed]

I think that Stalls would be a BIG part of learning to fly, surely. However, I also notice that not many schools touch on spins, which are very very valuable in training. Why? I know a few instructors who have never spun, no confidence there. Thankfully there are a few, few schools that do spin, and if you are learning, get yourself off to one of these schools for some spin recovery and UA recovery training.. .. .Dog

[Arm out the window]

Mad not to let them do it, if they're competent enough.. .As long as they know how to recover from unusual attitudes and what to do in an incipient spin, it's a great confidence building exercise.

[Sean Simpson]

An advanced stall is with anything but a clean configuration - eg: Landing Config, Climbing Turn etc, when the likelihood of a wingdrop is increased considerably. As you would know it's very important to use full opposite rudder and not aileron to correct the wing drop, which is the obvious instinctual reaction, but to get this ingrained takes more practice than dual training can offer.. .. .I'm surprised that some schools don't allow what is an essential part of training and confidence building. It's one thing to do them when you've got someone sitting next to you to pull you out of it when things go bad, quite another to keep your wits when the right seat is empty.. .. .Having said that I still clearly recall I was shi_ting myself when they sent me out to do them solo. . .. .Also surprises me regarding short/soft field practice - how can people learn to do these effectively and competantly without doing them solo ?. .. .Incipient and developed spins and spirals should be mandatory, ok maybe not solo though...but then again...

[429 CJ]

OK you lot, I'll ask you this..... .. .Apart from the ubiquitous C152, what other a/c is THE PREDOMINANT training aircraft utilised in Australia from initial training all the way untill just before those last few commercial navs?. .. .Next question....... .. .Is it certified for spinning OF ANY NATURE ?. .. .Therein might lay your answer, especially as they are cheap (relatively speaking) to purchase/run/repair etc. Before biting my head off, consider what type/s of aircaft YOU would put online if you were to set-up a training organisation yourself.. .. .Like everything, it all comes down to money.. .. .I agree wholeheartedly that the need for spin training/recovery should be a mandatory part of one's training. I had to leave the flying school that I had trained at to recieve this sort of training (in fact ole Jim tired of my spinning before I did, G'day Jim, Craig - and team <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> ), and might I add, I had a ball during the process.. .. .Regards,. .4/J

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

IMHO emphasis on recognising and controlling the aircraft, particularly in balance, at speeds close to the stall is more important than recovering from a fully developed one. Just as we teach people to correct and maintain their flight path on the approach BEFORE they crash the plane! Would you send someone solo to practice crashing just because it might happen one day if they forget how to fly it and get too slow?. .. .Most stall/spin episodes are a result of things like flying into IMC and getting disorientated, idiots showing off, or getting into strife on a glide approach because the symptoms of slow flight aren't recognised because their training didn't include enough emphasis on recognising and recovering from slow flight.. .. .I believe that these elements were an important part of the syllabus when older aircraft more prone to entering a spin were used. These days aircraft such as the pipers have a stall that is practically a non-event, and deliberate spins are prohibited. That's a safety feature, it doesn't mean pilots who fly them are wimps any more than people who drive cars with brakes that work are wimps. Spinning is an aerobatic manouevre and I always encourage students to go up and do some in the aerobat for the experience if they want to, or if they are keen to fly an older aeroplane, but would never force them especially if they are going to be flying a PA28.. .. .As for applying full opposite rudder to correct a wing drop, I totally disagree. This is an essential part of the recovery from a fully developed spin, but applied in the initial wing drop this could lead to making the aircraft far more out of balance, and lead to a spin in the opposite direction. Think about how you get the reluctant little aeroplane to enter a spin in the first place, yes a bootful of rudder.. .. .I teach the wing drop recovery to lower the nose to regain airspeed and MAINTAIN BALANCE with rudder. Raising the wing is NOT a high priority, getting the speed up is. ONce you are safely past Vs, level the wings as much as you like. . .. .I have conducted flight tests with people who have been taught this full opposite rudder thing, given them a stall recovery in a balanced banked attitude and...well think about it. Some people don't even know the difference between a wing drop and a banked attiude, because their instructors didn't know either.. .. .As for sending people out to practice "stalls" solo, I really don't see the point, there are fart more beneficial things they could be practicing.

[okeydokey]

CFI,. .I tend to agree (accept with the last sentence about farting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> ).. .Recognition of low speed flight and stall symptoms are as important as anything. Proceeding beyond this is territory for the ignorant or sufficiently experienced (at sufficient altitude). The idea of stall training is to avoid coming close to an unintentional stall. Let alone a spin. . .One must recognise the oncoming stall, not recover from it as they will usually be turning final if it ever occours.. .solo practise in essence allows a student to gain confidence in a given field. CFI, I agree, no point.. .. .As for the 3 degree slope, I needed a good laugh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .Centaurus, any idea who teaches this?

[Sean Simpson]

CFI. .. .Obviously the wing drop recovery is done in unison with the stall recovery. I had a few wing drops that I didn't recover from promptly that threw me straight into a spin. Best to level wings asap methinks but each to their own.. .. .Agreed that it is important to recognise an approaching stall but surely as equally important to be able to recover if it does happen ? There are still a lot of old easy stall/spin a/c out there, who knows what a/c a student may fly in the future. . .. .I also don't subscribe to the view that one has to be an idiot or ignorant to get into an inadvertant stall or spin. One example as you state is inadvertantly flying into IMC. Many a fine VFR pilot has found the blue hole closing down on them with nowhere to run. So then what - "err sorry old chap we never expected that to happen to you so you're on your own fella". . .. .I wonder how many pilots have slagged off some poor b_ugger who managed to get himself into a situation only to find themselves as a statistic further down the track.. .. .Also not sure how anyone would confuse a wing drop with a banked attitude. Most of the ones I have encountered/induced over the years were comparatively violent affairs and quite distinct from a controlled flight attitude.

[Tinstaafl]

I think spin training is beneficial but I'm not going to have a cow if doesn't happen.. .. .If I teach in a spinable a/c and airspace permits, then I include spins. If not, I don't but I make damn sure the student gets a good whack of incipients.. .. .CFI, I'm not sure about your teaching to keep in balance. Do you reference the balance ball? I teach to use sufficient rudder to prevent yaw. If full rudder is reached & the yaw is continuing then that's the point to use spin recovery methods.

[Arm out the window]

Re the rudder use in the stall, I was taught to use it to prevent further yaw, not to pick up the wing - obviously the comments above about huge rudder inputs at airspeeds around the stall apply.. .. .It can be hard to recognise when the yaw has stopped though, especially with the nose dropping and an angle of bank on, so in practice rudder to prevent further wing drop works well, as long as it's in conjunction with the other stall recovery actions, of course.. .. .The following list of recovery actions will no doubt be pretty familiar to many; I like them, but perhaps others may have some improvements?. .. .1. Simultaneously apply full power, control wheel or column centrally forward sufficient to unstall the wings (i.e. IAS increase, buffet stops) and rudder to prevent further yaw.. .. .2. When control regained, level wings with aileron, climb away.. .. .3. Check configuration (gear, flaps if applicable), look after the engine.. . . . <small>[ 25 March 2002, 22:40: Message edited by: Arm out the window ]</small>

[john_tullamarine]

... I can't help myself wading into this ... I apologise if I reiterate points made in the earlier posts.. .. .(a) without knowing the rationale behind the decisions of the flying schools involved, it seems to me that limited exposure to, and practising of, non-normal flight regimes might be a good recipe for low confidence and, after a period away from the initial training environment, low competence in the necessary skills. Is this really a desirable thing ? . .. .So far as stalls are concerned, I have a worry that the typical instruction sequence and manner of stalling/recovery may introduce a number of unnecessary hazards itself. I urge posters to consider and reflect upon the words of wisdom from John Farley in an appropriate thread on the Instructor Forum (as I recall).. .. .And the normal basic stall practice (clean, straight flight path) hardly prepares for the far more likely inadvertant stall scenario in reduced visibility when the runway extended centreline is overshot and the pilot tries to recover the situation with a low level steep turn ... an expensive way to drill for water .... .. .It appears to me that some instructors have a quite inadequate knowledge of the basic limitation differences between the different light aircraft certification categories. This, in turn, may present undesirable hazard potential if certain levels of manoeuvring are explored in inappropriate aircraft. I view with some alarm the tales I hear of people doing things in 150s and the like for which the aircraft were not really designed and certificated. That more people don't kill themselves is, I suspect, mostly due to Mr Cessna's comparatively docile aircraft.. .. .While the basic emphasis ought properly to be on recognition and avoidance of hazardous flight regimes, I am of the view that a student ought to be required to undertake a limited period of exposure to spinning and basic aerobatics even if only for confidence building. . .. .On the question of confidence building, adequate briefing, exposure, and practice is what it is all about. Some time ago, I had an upgrade captain who, after a totally fun-filled session of being wrung out with every which way engine failures, expressed the view that he was only then comfortable with such failures. The implication was that his previous training over quite some years in the particular airline had not given him enough of a go at the manipulative variations to build up his confidence to the point where he was able to relax and enjoy it a little.. .. .(b) Centaurus well knows my views on approach speeds and I concur with his views expressed in the first post.. .. .(c) training to fly a 3 degree approach in a small trainer appears to me to be extremely inappropriate. Apart from the facts that most runways do not have either electronic or visual guidance and that it makes the exercise somewhat harder for no real gain, the aerodrome standards for runways vary quite a bit in regard to approach slope obstacle clearance. To fly a shallow approach into a low grade country airstrip with obstacle problems is to be far braver than I. And, should this technique carry across to visual night flying ... I shall prefer not to be a passenger in the aircraft. . .. .Quite apart from this, and in association with the apparent trend to 30 minute training circuit patterns, the resulting HUGE circuits irritate me when I need field glasses (sign of age, I guess) to sight the conflicting aircraft somewhere out there in the far distance while I am trying to turn base inside the aerodrome boundary fence. The rationale behind the apparent belief that a 150 student need fly a circuit much larger than that flown in an RPT jet has always eluded me.. .. .One doesn't like to contemplate the outcome should the training aircraft suffer noise failure whilst it is a little speck in the distance. . .. .(d) we probably ought not to confuse what the ball and the needle are trying to tell us ....... . . . <small>[ 26 March 2002, 01:23: Message edited by: john_tullamarine ]</small>

[I Fly]

I would have thought that the Day VFR Syllabus AND the Operations Manual would tell us what to do (within the limits of the aircraft). How do people sign out Unit 7.2 for pre area solo. It requires standard 3 i.e. Able to achieve the private pilot standard on the majority of occasions;safe to operate under direct supervision. Do they supervise from inside the aircraft? When you sign that you sign "I saw him/her do it" and not "I think they can do it". It would be interesting to hear what a coroner would have to say if he/she discovered that items were signed out that were not done. Item 7.1 covers 'normal' and 'advanced stalling'. One of the Evidence items is "Wing drop is prevented by using rudder to control yaw". How do SOME people sign that out? Perhaps we should have an argument whether it should be in the syllabus, but while it's there we have some obligations.

[BrianG]

Competency based training has it's obvious limitation. As a humble GFPT pilot I have been considered comptent in stall recovery but it doesn't mean that I have always been confident in undertaking stalls solo. I guess, at post-solo level of training it should be up to the Instructor to judge a students competence and if there is a lack of confidence or ability, then restrict the student. I knew I was competent, but not confident, to practice stalls whilst solo for some time - it really wasn't until, at my request, my instrucor spent about an hour and half stalling in a variety of configurations, largely to show the degree of control possible. I can't say I enjoy stalls, but I make sure I practice them regularily - what better way to recognise the signs of an impending stall. IMHO advanced stall and spin training should be mandatory, but I know there are many (my very capable instructor, who I respect) who don't agree.

[stormywx]

I am curently a CPL level student at a Sydney school. We have always been allowed and encouraged to practise stalls when solo (including advanced stalls), while it is not the most comfortable feeling to begin with, it does build self confidence over time. We are also permitted to make any sort of approach when solo, including short field, glide etc etc.. .. .Our school also teaches the 3 degree approach method in PA28's. The theory behind it is that our course was designed for an airline standard and therefore they are teaching airline standard approaches now so there is no conversion required later. We are however taught how to make steep shortfield approaches into country airstrips where obstacles are a issue. This therefore provides us with 2 usuable approach methods.. .. .As a student I think its most valuable to allow students to practise all types of stalls and approaches while solo. There is a tendancy when dual to think "well the instructor will fix this if I stuff it up", you don't have that security blanket while solo. So over time this increases both self confidence and your ability to handle the aircraft in a wider range of activities.

[gaunty]

Well most of the modern trainers with perhaps the exception of the Tomahawk have, unless they have been bent, impeccable manners.. .. .If you roughhouse them to the point where they are forced, against their will, into this inelegant and heretofore studiously avoided mode of flight, they will respond perfectly adequately just by unhanding and unfeeting them and waiting patiently for them to allow you to continue your normal progress.. .Showing them something they already know how to do much better than you is typical chauvinist pilot show off stuff. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> . .. .Oh and BTW it's now official, LLoyds List has officially removed the female gender convention from ships and by extension aircraft, they are no longer she but it. Pity really, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Captain Sand Dune]

Maybe these particular flying schools do not authorize solo stall recoveries because their instuctors don't have the experience or competence to teach the maneouvre or to know when to authorize their student to try it solo.. .Maybe this inexperience is also the reason for insisting on the use of a VASIS (incredible!!).. .It could also be that what we are seeing is the roll on effects of decreasing experience in the piloting community, i.e. degradation of pure flying skills.. .BelowTenThousand isn't too far off the mark.. .The (alledged) military flying training school I am presently contracted want their cadets to be taught to recover at the first sign of stall. They are only shown a fully developed stall once by their instructors. This - I am told - is the USAF way of doing it.. .After reading some of these posts I am thankful for the thorough and comprehensive training I recieved in the RAAF.. .Another good reason for the budding aviators of today to look v.carefully when choosing which flying school to use.

[okeydokey]

Sand Dune,. .Interesting theory. BS, but interesting none the less. . .Firstly, who in general aviation would have more time conducting stalls than the average flight instructor? I know when I finished my initial rating I had more stalling time than most non-instructors will ever have. . .Secondly, who would teach a VASIS appch (amazing I agree) if they were not taught it themselves? . .I don't disagree with your comments re general flying standards and the reason for its decrease but lets be rational. Flight instructors are taught how and why to instruct using various methods, heck, they even have to do spins as part of their training!

[Captain Sand Dune]

okeydokey. .. .Not the first time I've been told I'm full of it, and it probably won't be the last!. .I am well aware that GA instructors are taught how to instruct stalls and spins (among other things).. .However, why then is this particular school (or schools) not authorising its students to practice stalls while solo?! Not fair on the students in my view.

[sniffer dog]

Four young teenagers were killed a couple of years ago in Victoria and the reason was that the pilot was unable to recover controlled flight in the altitude he he had remaining after inadvertingly stalling the a/c (reason unknown for stall). .. .Yet the altitude available was adequate (700'- radar verifide) had the correct technique been used, as it turned out his training was sub standard.. .. .Nuff said. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[Slasher]

Goes to show just how "cost-saving" has subtly encroached on initial training due to competition in prices between flying schools. The argument that a stall prevention is better than stall cure is fine except there are many ways you can inadvertantley enter a stall at either end of the clock. Windshear and severe turbulence are 2 that imediately come to mind. As long as aerofoils are capable of stalling so will solo stall-recovery training be a basic requirement for confidence and safe piloting of any aircraft. Only need to thumb through a few crash-comics for proof.. .. .Thank God in my day solo stalls and spins were still a required part of the sylabus.