Well most of the modern trainers with perhaps the exception of the Tomahawk have, unless they have been bent, impeccable manners.. .. .If you roughhouse them to the point where they are forced, against their will, into this inelegant and heretofore studiously avoided mode of flight, they will respond perfectly adequately just by unhanding and unfeeting them and waiting patiently for them to allow you to continue your normal progress.. .Showing them something they already know how to do much better than you is typical chauvinist pilot show off stuff. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> . .. .Oh and BTW it's now official, LLoyds List has officially removed the female gender convention from ships and by extension aircraft, they are no longer she but it. Pity really, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />