The “Original Air Canada” Pilots lose again.
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Hey Pudy Cat,
I suggest you run to the future, cause your bankrupt past that would have folded into never, never land would have given you jack. You have a job and a very decent one at that...Yes, we get the part about being hard done by and terrible sacrifice and heartache, but most of it is ego driven. You were forced to merge with the enemy, plain and simple where their would be no winners. Forced to wear that dreaded RED color that was the devil in disguise. Throw your graphs in the 86 file, or wallpaper your house...you are gainfully employed with great benefits to support you and your family. Did you see yourself retiring with team red? Not in the darkest places of your mind, but that's the painful reality of aviation. It's interesting how over 3000 pilots seemed to get the short end of the stick. Nobody is happy to merge with the enemy and now having to pretend to be spooning on the couch. It's not right, fair, reasonable, blah, blah blah. Those of us on the outside, see you as lucky, I suggest you look at that glass of water carefully and call it half full !
I suggest you run to the future, cause your bankrupt past that would have folded into never, never land would have given you jack. You have a job and a very decent one at that...Yes, we get the part about being hard done by and terrible sacrifice and heartache, but most of it is ego driven. You were forced to merge with the enemy, plain and simple where their would be no winners. Forced to wear that dreaded RED color that was the devil in disguise. Throw your graphs in the 86 file, or wallpaper your house...you are gainfully employed with great benefits to support you and your family. Did you see yourself retiring with team red? Not in the darkest places of your mind, but that's the painful reality of aviation. It's interesting how over 3000 pilots seemed to get the short end of the stick. Nobody is happy to merge with the enemy and now having to pretend to be spooning on the couch. It's not right, fair, reasonable, blah, blah blah. Those of us on the outside, see you as lucky, I suggest you look at that glass of water carefully and call it half full !
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Saltaire.
I think you hit the nail on the head. To some, the bad blood that was there for decades will never go away. They have brought it over as part of the package. The architects of this so-called merger greatly underestimated the "better dead than red" attitude of the blue side. On the surface, most of the former Canadian employees are quite pleasant and seem to have taken this whole mess quite well. It's only when people like the cat hater pop up that we realize what lies beneath. AC employees were forced to accept a lower standard of living while the other side, at the very least, maintained theirs if not improving it. That is fact. The cat hater can spin it any way he wants. This so-called merger will go down as the greatest rape of seniority in the history of the airline industry. No wonder they have to try and spin with the whyning. Yep, they have it real bad. In the fall of 2000, their CEO came on national tv and stated that Canadian had no more money. He stated that for all intents and purpose, they were out of business. I will never forget that moment. I immediately saw a merger in the making and my greatest fear was confirmed a short time later when Robert Milton announced we were "paying their bills" to keep them afloat. That's all in the past now. To use a quote out of ancient Rome, as the cat hater would do, "we came, we saw, we conquered". Nice job. You've earned it.
I think you hit the nail on the head. To some, the bad blood that was there for decades will never go away. They have brought it over as part of the package. The architects of this so-called merger greatly underestimated the "better dead than red" attitude of the blue side. On the surface, most of the former Canadian employees are quite pleasant and seem to have taken this whole mess quite well. It's only when people like the cat hater pop up that we realize what lies beneath. AC employees were forced to accept a lower standard of living while the other side, at the very least, maintained theirs if not improving it. That is fact. The cat hater can spin it any way he wants. This so-called merger will go down as the greatest rape of seniority in the history of the airline industry. No wonder they have to try and spin with the whyning. Yep, they have it real bad. In the fall of 2000, their CEO came on national tv and stated that Canadian had no more money. He stated that for all intents and purpose, they were out of business. I will never forget that moment. I immediately saw a merger in the making and my greatest fear was confirmed a short time later when Robert Milton announced we were "paying their bills" to keep them afloat. That's all in the past now. To use a quote out of ancient Rome, as the cat hater would do, "we came, we saw, we conquered". Nice job. You've earned it.
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Originally Posted by Saltaire
Hey Pudy Cat,
I suggest you run to the future, cause your bankrupt past that would have folded into never, never land would have given you jack. You have a job and a very decent one at that...Yes, we get the part about being hard done by and terrible sacrifice and heartache, but most of it is ego driven. You were forced to merge with the enemy, plain and simple where their would be no winners. Forced to wear that dreaded RED color that was the devil in disguise. Throw your graphs in the 86 file, or wallpaper your house...you are gainfully employed with great benefits to support you and your family. Did you see yourself retiring with team red? Not in the darkest places of your mind, but that's the painful reality of aviation. It's interesting how over 3000 pilots seemed to get the short end of the stick. Nobody is happy to merge with the enemy and now having to pretend to be spooning on the couch. It's not right, fair, reasonable, blah, blah blah. Those of us on the outside, see you as lucky, I suggest you look at that glass of water carefully and call it half full !
I suggest you run to the future, cause your bankrupt past that would have folded into never, never land would have given you jack. You have a job and a very decent one at that...Yes, we get the part about being hard done by and terrible sacrifice and heartache, but most of it is ego driven. You were forced to merge with the enemy, plain and simple where their would be no winners. Forced to wear that dreaded RED color that was the devil in disguise. Throw your graphs in the 86 file, or wallpaper your house...you are gainfully employed with great benefits to support you and your family. Did you see yourself retiring with team red? Not in the darkest places of your mind, but that's the painful reality of aviation. It's interesting how over 3000 pilots seemed to get the short end of the stick. Nobody is happy to merge with the enemy and now having to pretend to be spooning on the couch. It's not right, fair, reasonable, blah, blah blah. Those of us on the outside, see you as lucky, I suggest you look at that glass of water carefully and call it half full !
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I Hate Cats,
Your graphs and numbers are utter nonsense.Because we were forced to save you from bankruptcy in 1999 I am now 600 seniority numbers junior to my original number when I got hired.After 2 years at AC i could hold the 767 and by know was looking at 320 Captain.Instead?I just got back from my tour of duty on the CRJ making less than FA and coming within spitting distance of having to relocate to the desert.And you know the funny thing is that the CRJ courses were full of OAC pilots getting downgraded while the 767 and 340 classes next door were ex-CP FO's and Captain's upgrading from the 737.
At the same time 30 320 captains on my base were downgraded back to FO's while you 737 guys were upgrading to the 320.
Your numbers are total sh...t!As Brucelee says they mean SFA to the guys like us that had to sell our houses,loose our positions,expatriate ourselves while you guys won the lottery and still bitch about it.
Tell me the exact number of CP guys that got downgraded to the CRJ?That got laid off?That are making less money today than pre-merger?None.
You won the lottery Mr.I hate cats,now why dont you have the decency to just go and gloat in private and stop pissing on us.You cheated and you won,is that not enough?You guys should all be in the sand box or in asia with the poor ex C3 guys but instead you are at the top of the list at our airline,one we loved,were proud to be a part of,and spent years and years TRYNG TO GET INTO.The only saving grace is that you guys are so old most of you will be retired soon.
Your graphs and numbers are utter nonsense.Because we were forced to save you from bankruptcy in 1999 I am now 600 seniority numbers junior to my original number when I got hired.After 2 years at AC i could hold the 767 and by know was looking at 320 Captain.Instead?I just got back from my tour of duty on the CRJ making less than FA and coming within spitting distance of having to relocate to the desert.And you know the funny thing is that the CRJ courses were full of OAC pilots getting downgraded while the 767 and 340 classes next door were ex-CP FO's and Captain's upgrading from the 737.
At the same time 30 320 captains on my base were downgraded back to FO's while you 737 guys were upgrading to the 320.
Your numbers are total sh...t!As Brucelee says they mean SFA to the guys like us that had to sell our houses,loose our positions,expatriate ourselves while you guys won the lottery and still bitch about it.
Tell me the exact number of CP guys that got downgraded to the CRJ?That got laid off?That are making less money today than pre-merger?None.
You won the lottery Mr.I hate cats,now why dont you have the decency to just go and gloat in private and stop pissing on us.You cheated and you won,is that not enough?You guys should all be in the sand box or in asia with the poor ex C3 guys but instead you are at the top of the list at our airline,one we loved,were proud to be a part of,and spent years and years TRYNG TO GET INTO.The only saving grace is that you guys are so old most of you will be retired soon.
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Originally Posted by flyr4hire
re-read CIRB decision 925, paragraphs 18 - 21, and then tell us again who sanctioned the Teplitsky process.
I'd love to see those court-case winning ACPA merger charts and graphics too. Oh, thats right, ACPA hasnt won any court cases or CIRB decisions in years. My bad.
Once again to Brucelee and his OAC friends, given your hate and invective directed towards Canadian Pilots, why would they unify with you?
Why would they trust you?
Why would they vote with you?
Wouldnt it be easier to vote "yes" for a wage deal this summer and avoid another seniority exercise in the fall of 2006?
I hope your expectations for the wage negotiations arent as high as your merger expectations because you will be disappointed by the low-ball offer from Air Canada this summer.
Perhaps more concessions like the 777 agreement?
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I Hate Cats:
as it is common for OCP types to see, read, and understand only what they want to know, i am refraining from pasting an entire document here for your sake, just look through all your propoganda, charts, etc etc ( garbage ), and read that decision CIRB 925, paragraphs 18-21.
My only reason for enforcing that read is in response to your question to "Brucelee" about sanctioning the Teplitsky hearings, who did? The answer will stare you right in the face, but please no selective reading or interpretations. Your camp is running scared Cats, and that unfortunately for you is the real reality.
as it is common for OCP types to see, read, and understand only what they want to know, i am refraining from pasting an entire document here for your sake, just look through all your propoganda, charts, etc etc ( garbage ), and read that decision CIRB 925, paragraphs 18-21.
My only reason for enforcing that read is in response to your question to "Brucelee" about sanctioning the Teplitsky hearings, who did? The answer will stare you right in the face, but please no selective reading or interpretations. Your camp is running scared Cats, and that unfortunately for you is the real reality.
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I would suggest that no matter how good a presentation the OAC provided, it never stood the proverbial snowball's chance because a certain judge made his decision even before we stood before him? Let's not kid ourselves, this was a highly political, mob style decision and I make no qualm about it. I think Keller should stand up to some very serious questions but of course that will not happen. Never mind the wine and cheese party, this whole thing was wrigged even before that. Why else would Keller even go that party and admit it? The OCP even waisted their time with the fancy charts. All they had to do was show up. I'm also curious the way they expect us just accept all this and move on while they didn't accept the original Mitchnik award which slightly favoured us. I still maintain that life at the evil empire will continue, not as good as it could have been, but good none the less. And after this next and final decision from the CIRB, if the Gucci boys win, I'm sure there will be more wine and cheese to go around.
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Thats typical kindergarten logic Brucelee. OAC, having no evidence of wrongdoing, no proof of any defect in rulings against them then stand up and exclaim 'The system is corrupt, everyone is against us!'
Trouble is, you havent brought anything forward to prove your statements. Life in denial of reality must truly suck.
Back to original question now.
How will the wage-negotiation go this summer? Badly for you Im afraid Brucelee because there is no unity within your 'union' and without unity a 'union' has no power. No power in this case means no wage increase because AC managemant is so good and your ACPA are clowns.
This is how it will work:
Air Canada low-balls ACPA, maybe even asks for wage roll-backs to match wage decreases on similar equipment in the US. Air Canada throws in a 'position group' tweak to get PG pilots to vote yes
ACPA says no. It goes to arbitration. The wage arb comes back split down the middle between the two positions. 'No big wage increase for you Brucelee' says the Soup Nazi (sorry for the Seinfeld reference). In fact ACPA is lucky to hold on to what they got. Nobody is happy.
A week before the vote, your Flight Ops VP puts out a memo saying: Ive received many Emails from pilots saying they will vote no as a seniority protest. I urge all pilots to vote on the merits of the new wage agreement and not as a seniority protest. or maybe it gets leaked on a forum?
Canadian Pilots see this, hold their noses and vote yes to avoid another ACPA plot. Every other pilot who is tired of the seniority fight votes yes and your wage increase opportunity is a thing of the past. PG pilots vote yes
See how lack of unity in a 'union' really sucks Brucelee? See how screwing a portion of your membership last summer can come back to haunt you?
I know youre in denial so Im sure you will come up with some clown-like response about my propaganda. Whatever. Im not trying to convince you because Ive run circles around you already and you keep coming back for more.
What I am trying to do is illustrate a cautionary tale to anyone who reads this forum about how badly a union can stray from the ideal and how damaging it is when union leaders lose the trust of their membership. ACPA is a mess IMO and AC management isnt. You ACPA guys will lose this summer, its just a matter of how badly.
Trouble is, you havent brought anything forward to prove your statements. Life in denial of reality must truly suck.
Back to original question now.
How will the wage-negotiation go this summer? Badly for you Im afraid Brucelee because there is no unity within your 'union' and without unity a 'union' has no power. No power in this case means no wage increase because AC managemant is so good and your ACPA are clowns.
This is how it will work:
Air Canada low-balls ACPA, maybe even asks for wage roll-backs to match wage decreases on similar equipment in the US. Air Canada throws in a 'position group' tweak to get PG pilots to vote yes
ACPA says no. It goes to arbitration. The wage arb comes back split down the middle between the two positions. 'No big wage increase for you Brucelee' says the Soup Nazi (sorry for the Seinfeld reference). In fact ACPA is lucky to hold on to what they got. Nobody is happy.
A week before the vote, your Flight Ops VP puts out a memo saying: Ive received many Emails from pilots saying they will vote no as a seniority protest. I urge all pilots to vote on the merits of the new wage agreement and not as a seniority protest. or maybe it gets leaked on a forum?
Canadian Pilots see this, hold their noses and vote yes to avoid another ACPA plot. Every other pilot who is tired of the seniority fight votes yes and your wage increase opportunity is a thing of the past. PG pilots vote yes
See how lack of unity in a 'union' really sucks Brucelee? See how screwing a portion of your membership last summer can come back to haunt you?
I know youre in denial so Im sure you will come up with some clown-like response about my propaganda. Whatever. Im not trying to convince you because Ive run circles around you already and you keep coming back for more.
What I am trying to do is illustrate a cautionary tale to anyone who reads this forum about how badly a union can stray from the ideal and how damaging it is when union leaders lose the trust of their membership. ACPA is a mess IMO and AC management isnt. You ACPA guys will lose this summer, its just a matter of how badly.
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Well this has been an interesting thread. I wonder how many pilots at AC (OAC & CP), have looked at the retirement lists. Over the next ten or so years AC will lose around 1400 pilots. That does not include the numerous failed medicals etc. So factor in around... 200 more. Why don't you pilots grow up and try to get along, it makes for a better work enviroment. Otherwise you will fight this fight until the last pilot from the merged list retires and your off spring take up the fight.
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
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I hate pussy(cats).
What more proof do you need? Keller unknowingly admitted to coming to your "wine and cheese taste" to one of our pilots. When the big cheese at the CIRB found out, she claimed that this would not affect his decision. Who are we trying to kid here. That's the most blatent conflict of interest I've ever heard of. This is not top secret. It's now public information. You guys have figured out that you don't even need to show up at the hearings anymore. It's just a waist of time isn't it? You know who's on your side. To answer your other question, I am not priveledged to have the charts the way you do. But like I said, I don't need them. I have felt the full effect of your rape on me through real life experience. You should be ashamed of yourself cat-hater. You're the one who should be losing sleep at night but instead you come on this forum taunting AC pilots knowing full well our chances at fairness are next to none. You are the lowest scum of human kind. It's no wonder the OAC don't think much of you.
Flyer 1492.
Please, unless you work here, you just have no clue. If you do work here, shame on you too. But thanx for tryin'.
What more proof do you need? Keller unknowingly admitted to coming to your "wine and cheese taste" to one of our pilots. When the big cheese at the CIRB found out, she claimed that this would not affect his decision. Who are we trying to kid here. That's the most blatent conflict of interest I've ever heard of. This is not top secret. It's now public information. You guys have figured out that you don't even need to show up at the hearings anymore. It's just a waist of time isn't it? You know who's on your side. To answer your other question, I am not priveledged to have the charts the way you do. But like I said, I don't need them. I have felt the full effect of your rape on me through real life experience. You should be ashamed of yourself cat-hater. You're the one who should be losing sleep at night but instead you come on this forum taunting AC pilots knowing full well our chances at fairness are next to none. You are the lowest scum of human kind. It's no wonder the OAC don't think much of you.
Flyer 1492.
Please, unless you work here, you just have no clue. If you do work here, shame on you too. But thanx for tryin'.
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Brucelee,
Your right I don't work for the mainline, and I am glad I don't. I have watched this latest episode of how the OAC's have been screwed again. When will you people ever learn. You don't own anything. I have enough friends that work as pilots for the mainline, and hear it from them. Just ask yourselves, how much have we paid out in lawyer fees so far. Mergers are not fair to everyone, I know because I have been thru 3 so far. Most times I have taken the hit, but I have lived with it.
Flyer 1492
Your right I don't work for the mainline, and I am glad I don't. I have watched this latest episode of how the OAC's have been screwed again. When will you people ever learn. You don't own anything. I have enough friends that work as pilots for the mainline, and hear it from them. Just ask yourselves, how much have we paid out in lawyer fees so far. Mergers are not fair to everyone, I know because I have been thru 3 so far. Most times I have taken the hit, but I have lived with it.
Flyer 1492
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Flyer.
I hear ya. I and many other OAC will live with this merger too. We have no choice. Although you're wrong by saying we don't own anything. When hired at AC, you own a seniority number. When someone takes that away, it's called stealing. A little screwing I can live with. But I can't live with several hundred numbers of loss of seniority. I have said many times that despite it all, we still have it good. But at AC seniority not only defines your daily life but even what life will be like into retirement. If we were men and women with no principles, no dignity, this would not be an issue. But egos aside, we have dignity and mouths to feed. Many have wanted to be here since they were old enough to walk. To take this lying down would be a big mistake. My friend who hates cats is trying to make me do just that because we need to be "unified" against management or we will not succeed as group. I agree with him, no doubt we need to be unified. But not before we try to restore fairness. We have one more shot at it. I wonder if the OCP will accept an OAC victory. Are they willing to be unified if the OAC get back a little of what we lost? Can we still be unified after that? They proved in the past that it cannot be.
I hear ya. I and many other OAC will live with this merger too. We have no choice. Although you're wrong by saying we don't own anything. When hired at AC, you own a seniority number. When someone takes that away, it's called stealing. A little screwing I can live with. But I can't live with several hundred numbers of loss of seniority. I have said many times that despite it all, we still have it good. But at AC seniority not only defines your daily life but even what life will be like into retirement. If we were men and women with no principles, no dignity, this would not be an issue. But egos aside, we have dignity and mouths to feed. Many have wanted to be here since they were old enough to walk. To take this lying down would be a big mistake. My friend who hates cats is trying to make me do just that because we need to be "unified" against management or we will not succeed as group. I agree with him, no doubt we need to be unified. But not before we try to restore fairness. We have one more shot at it. I wonder if the OCP will accept an OAC victory. Are they willing to be unified if the OAC get back a little of what we lost? Can we still be unified after that? They proved in the past that it cannot be.
Last edited by brucelee; 24th Feb 2006 at 00:40.
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This sickness started back in 1937 when the Canadian Government passed over the original Canadian aviation pioneers and brought in an American to run the new TCA. The poison then became part of the CP culture; surprisingly it never was part of the AC culture. It was quite a shock to the AC group when the CDN group came out with their “Better dead then Red” slogan especially as a large number of us originated from Western Canada. AC should never have bought CDN but was forced to by the Liberal Government of the day with so many ominous conditions applied that it eventually led to AC filing for CCAA.
What our fearless AC leader didn’t realize was the huge problem that would occur when he tried to merge the very poisonous CDN culture with that of AC. I could understand the hatred if the CDN folks had been placed at the bottom of our seniority list as was the norm but that wasn’t the case. In all the CDN employees won the jackpot getting trained on modern equipment with a huge pay increases and job security meanwhile the AC folks were being down graded. But that still doesn’t appear to be enough as their intent is to destroy AC from with in. The Vancouver base and their LEC is a company within themselves daring AC management to try and discipline pilots for wrong doings. It’s amazing that AC management lacks the balls to correct the situation by just downsizing the base as that precedence has already been set in the past...
I believe the poisonous posts by the CDN folks speak for themselves..
What our fearless AC leader didn’t realize was the huge problem that would occur when he tried to merge the very poisonous CDN culture with that of AC. I could understand the hatred if the CDN folks had been placed at the bottom of our seniority list as was the norm but that wasn’t the case. In all the CDN employees won the jackpot getting trained on modern equipment with a huge pay increases and job security meanwhile the AC folks were being down graded. But that still doesn’t appear to be enough as their intent is to destroy AC from with in. The Vancouver base and their LEC is a company within themselves daring AC management to try and discipline pilots for wrong doings. It’s amazing that AC management lacks the balls to correct the situation by just downsizing the base as that precedence has already been set in the past...
I believe the poisonous posts by the CDN folks speak for themselves..
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Originally Posted by sepia
As an outsider it's pretty evident that the poisonous posts don't only come from one side of the fence.
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Sepia.
Have a look back at who started this post and what he implied. How ironic that the merger was done the same way. Someone started something to which someone else was forced to defend themselves. Get my drift? Let me be clear (again) the employees of AC did not want this merger. Now, as we try to make the best of it, we are faced with the "let's kiss and make up because we won" attitude from the other side. It may end up that way. We may have no choice. But it ain't quite over yet. Something else they are doing if you haven't noticed. They are already blaming the OAC for any future unsuccesfull negotiations with the company. In other words, they took our seniority and then it's our fault that they can't get a payraise out of management. Brilliant!!!
Have a look back at who started this post and what he implied. How ironic that the merger was done the same way. Someone started something to which someone else was forced to defend themselves. Get my drift? Let me be clear (again) the employees of AC did not want this merger. Now, as we try to make the best of it, we are faced with the "let's kiss and make up because we won" attitude from the other side. It may end up that way. We may have no choice. But it ain't quite over yet. Something else they are doing if you haven't noticed. They are already blaming the OAC for any future unsuccesfull negotiations with the company. In other words, they took our seniority and then it's our fault that they can't get a payraise out of management. Brilliant!!!
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Ok, I have a question for the folks working at AC: Does this resentment/anger/bitterness spill over into the workplace? I understand that it has its' root there, but is it honestly a drag to go to work every day? I am sure plenty of us with applications in would like to know if we are potentially getting ourselves into a poisonous work environment.
(edited for spelling)
(edited for spelling)
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Originally Posted by meaw
Tell me the exact number of CP guys that got downgraded to the CRJ?That got laid off?That are making less money today than pre-merger?None.
Sorry to poop your party meaw, but I personnally know of one...(CRJ)
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Gunbi.
There is one, maybe two. Try hundreds of OAC losing hundreds of numbers. That's the point you won't get unless you work here. If we are going to have a successful merger, there can be no winners or losers. Everyone must remain equal. A protocal, BTW, that was agreed upon prior to the seniority talks even starting. Today we find ourselves with a "slightly" lobsided scenario. Sorry to poop on your party.
lawndar.
Fortunately, the two sides have managed to maintain professionalism and safety at work. Except for a rare minor incident or two, we have gotten along quite well outside of the courtroom. I have personally worked with many OCP and find them to be quite good to work with on an individual basis.
There is one, maybe two. Try hundreds of OAC losing hundreds of numbers. That's the point you won't get unless you work here. If we are going to have a successful merger, there can be no winners or losers. Everyone must remain equal. A protocal, BTW, that was agreed upon prior to the seniority talks even starting. Today we find ourselves with a "slightly" lobsided scenario. Sorry to poop on your party.
lawndar.
Fortunately, the two sides have managed to maintain professionalism and safety at work. Except for a rare minor incident or two, we have gotten along quite well outside of the courtroom. I have personally worked with many OCP and find them to be quite good to work with on an individual basis.