The “Original Air Canada” Pilots lose again.
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Re-playing these arguments is like trying to convert a muslim to christianity. Both sides are dug in and passionate about their beliefs. There are too many yardsticks being used and the units don't convert linearly between measuring systems.
Personally, I thought Mitchnick was fair, but it's telling that arbitrator Keller thought arbitrator Mitchnick was out-to-lunch, and that arbitrator Teplitsky thinks arbitrator Keller smokes drugs.
Here's hoping that the CIRB implements Teplitsky, finding some middle ground between the previous awards.
Personally, I thought Mitchnick was fair, but it's telling that arbitrator Keller thought arbitrator Mitchnick was out-to-lunch, and that arbitrator Teplitsky thinks arbitrator Keller smokes drugs.
Here's hoping that the CIRB implements Teplitsky, finding some middle ground between the previous awards.
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Originally Posted by brucelee
Sorry to poop on your party.
Well, it's not my party brucelee, because I don't work for AC, I was just telling meaw that, contrary to what he said, some OCP have been downgraded, and yes I know not as many as OAC.
One thing for sure, I wouldn't want to be standing in your shoes right now, and actually for the past 17 years (I'm sure glad AC didn't hire me back then!)
Good luck with everything!
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hey Gumbi.
Some OCP have been downgraded? I don't call going from a 737 to an airbus downgraded. I certainly don't call right seat 767 to left seat airbus downgraded. The only "downgrading" happened when we lost the 747's and the Gucci boys had to settle for the big bus or the 767.
The past 17 years? Pretty good as far as the old boys retiring tell us. The only people that keep writing us off are those who never made it here. That's ok, I can sort of understand that.
Hey look, I know this may come as a surprise, but nobody's quitting and lots are still coming over (10-20 a month). Crazy? No. Like I said, still the best gig in town.
Some OCP have been downgraded? I don't call going from a 737 to an airbus downgraded. I certainly don't call right seat 767 to left seat airbus downgraded. The only "downgrading" happened when we lost the 747's and the Gucci boys had to settle for the big bus or the 767.
The past 17 years? Pretty good as far as the old boys retiring tell us. The only people that keep writing us off are those who never made it here. That's ok, I can sort of understand that.
Hey look, I know this may come as a surprise, but nobody's quitting and lots are still coming over (10-20 a month). Crazy? No. Like I said, still the best gig in town.
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[QUOTE=Tan] surprisingly it never was part of the AC culture. It was quite a shock to the AC group when the CDN group came out with their “Better dead then Red” slogan especially as a large number of us originated from Western Canada.
So Mr. Tan, just what was the culture of those people in AC pilot uniforms marching at Ottawa and chanting "let Canadi>n die"?
Discerning minds want to know.
So Mr. Tan, just what was the culture of those people in AC pilot uniforms marching at Ottawa and chanting "let Canadi>n die"?
Discerning minds want to know.
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Originally Posted by brucelee
hey Gumbi.
Some OCP have been downgraded? I don't call going from a 737 to an airbus downgraded. I certainly don't call right seat 767 to left seat airbus downgraded. The only "downgrading" happened when we lost the 747's and the Gucci boys had to settle for the big bus or the 767.
The past 17 years? Pretty good as far as the old boys retiring tell us. The only people that keep writing us off are those who never made it here. That's ok, I can sort of understand that.
Hey look, I know this may come as a surprise, but nobody's quitting and lots are still coming over (10-20 a month). Crazy? No. Like I said, still the best gig in town.
Some OCP have been downgraded? I don't call going from a 737 to an airbus downgraded. I certainly don't call right seat 767 to left seat airbus downgraded. The only "downgrading" happened when we lost the 747's and the Gucci boys had to settle for the big bus or the 767.
The past 17 years? Pretty good as far as the old boys retiring tell us. The only people that keep writing us off are those who never made it here. That's ok, I can sort of understand that.
Hey look, I know this may come as a surprise, but nobody's quitting and lots are still coming over (10-20 a month). Crazy? No. Like I said, still the best gig in town.
Sorry you took it like that brucelee, my intentions were actually friendly, but I guess you didn't get that... One more thing you didn't get is that, no matter what you think and have been told over the years, AC is not for everybody (meaning we don't necessarily ALL want to work there, is that so hard to undertstand?) Some of us are actually happy NOT to work for AC, really!!!
Anyways, for what it's worth, I still mean what I said... All that merger hoopla going on must really be a drag, for all of you, and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes, for whatever reasons!
And, yes, I know of an ex-737 captain that now flies the RJ!
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brucelee;
At the 1999 point the asm cost at AC was 17 cents and at CDN it was 14 cents (Westjet was 13 cents). Had CDN gone the CCAA route it would have exited with an asm of 10 cents. Do you see where this is going? Is it your position that CCAA was the exclusive privilege of AC?
ALL of the factual information shows that every OAC pilot has a better career with the merger than without.
At the 1999 point the asm cost at AC was 17 cents and at CDN it was 14 cents (Westjet was 13 cents). Had CDN gone the CCAA route it would have exited with an asm of 10 cents. Do you see where this is going? Is it your position that CCAA was the exclusive privilege of AC?
ALL of the factual information shows that every OAC pilot has a better career with the merger than without.
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Gumbi,
The only way an ex 737 skipper is on the CRJ is because he screwed up his bid or did it voluntarily.To have been a 737 captain he must have had at least 15 years seniority and there is no way he was downgraded there by force.The only ex CP guys on the CRJ were there as Captains making 100K per year and were ex 737 FO's that wanted to be senior or wanted the left seat.I know because I was on it and the CRJ community is a small one.
Get your facts straight.
The only way an ex 737 skipper is on the CRJ is because he screwed up his bid or did it voluntarily.To have been a 737 captain he must have had at least 15 years seniority and there is no way he was downgraded there by force.The only ex CP guys on the CRJ were there as Captains making 100K per year and were ex 737 FO's that wanted to be senior or wanted the left seat.I know because I was on it and the CRJ community is a small one.
Get your facts straight.
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There are a couple ex CRA (not OCP) guys on the RJ. That whole CRA thing is a story itself, as if the OCP rape wasn't enough, those two or three whent ahead in seniority on the RJ compared to the OAC senior RJ pilots. The only OCP guy (737) on the RJ , bid the RJ for seniority. I know cause I flew with him. He was number one guy on the RJ, now he is number one on the EMB. He could very well be on bigger equipment making more money but has CHOSEN not to. You guys that have these ex OCP or ex CRA friends in the company have been sold the sob stories. Ask them more questions. Get the real story. The whyning tactic has worked very well for these guys. Ask them how much money they were making before the "merger" and how much they are making now even with the cuts. Ask them why it is that the majority of them will get to fly the 777 long before most OAC pilots will. Carefull though, the answers they give you will have some "poor me" line in it.
Last edited by brucelee; 25th Feb 2006 at 14:38.
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OAC have you ever thouhgt that it might be your past that is coming
back to haunt you..
For screwing the life of real people for the last 40 years. For
taking your union gains over the life of the FA or ramp agent at your own
company. for making your junior pilots pay with a B scale to keep the senior guys happy
For lowering the bar in canadian aviation just for the fun of
screwing the life of Jazz pilots.
for screwing the public opinion that AC have the best pilots in the
world and that you need great experience and many hours to work there.
The hiring boom starts and you're hiring 1500h cessna caravan pilots.
You are a disgrace to the sport. You have the lowest hiring standard
of all canadian 705 operator. 1000h no sim ride.
for screwing canadian pilots to work hard and build some time to be
good enough to fly the big jet. When you have enough, they hire the
lowest time guy.
For discrimating the Jazz group to take pay cuts and layoff for your
ACE group but when ACE goes better you people won't benefit from it.
let's hire from the street.
even if you would be loosing 10 000 seniority numbers over an
arbitration you will not make anybody cry for you people who have screwed aviator fellows for the last 40 years..
just to let you know before you answer the easy way that I am frustrated cause I got refuse at Ac, I am a heavy captain making a decent living and who never applied to AC. It's just the way canadian pilots feel about you...
back to haunt you..
For screwing the life of real people for the last 40 years. For
taking your union gains over the life of the FA or ramp agent at your own
company. for making your junior pilots pay with a B scale to keep the senior guys happy
For lowering the bar in canadian aviation just for the fun of
screwing the life of Jazz pilots.
for screwing the public opinion that AC have the best pilots in the
world and that you need great experience and many hours to work there.
The hiring boom starts and you're hiring 1500h cessna caravan pilots.
You are a disgrace to the sport. You have the lowest hiring standard
of all canadian 705 operator. 1000h no sim ride.
for screwing canadian pilots to work hard and build some time to be
good enough to fly the big jet. When you have enough, they hire the
lowest time guy.
For discrimating the Jazz group to take pay cuts and layoff for your
ACE group but when ACE goes better you people won't benefit from it.
let's hire from the street.
even if you would be loosing 10 000 seniority numbers over an
arbitration you will not make anybody cry for you people who have screwed aviator fellows for the last 40 years..
just to let you know before you answer the easy way that I am frustrated cause I got refuse at Ac, I am a heavy captain making a decent living and who never applied to AC. It's just the way canadian pilots feel about you...
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brucelee,
with the bitterness you're holding on to, I don't think you should have to worry endlessly about your hundreds of lost seniority numbers...your medical will never make it anywhere near retirement anyway.
God, I still meet people in the terminal who answer every "How's it going?" with "Not bad for a guy who got screwed out of 20 years of seniority"...how absolutely, tragically pathetic.
You say you "own" a seniority number. What bull****. It's a system set up by a employer, nothing more. The company, the industry, and life don't owe you OR THE OCP BOYS a friggin' thing. Perhaps that is why the arbitrators rule against OAC...they like most of the Canadian public can;t stomach the stench of entitlement.
This war is all about envy, greed, and demographic warefare. Why is it the loudest mouthpieces in the OAC camp seem to fit a certain profile: 30-something fastburners who've seen their rapid career progession slow down postmerger? Oh boo ******* hoo, the guy who "could hold the 767 within two years" when he was hired. Yet the OCP guys are (as alluded to elsewhere) in the main, people who have already done the bulk of their careers elsewhere, usually at several different carriers. I know full well the young guns at AC would have been quite happy to see the OCP guys struggling in Asia or at Home Depot, may the shoe never be on the other foot.
Lastly, I think people are sick to death of hearing the OAC whining about how "it was always their dream to work at AC, they worked towards it since before they could walk"...news flash..that doesn't make you special or exalted. Many, many people would trade your hard-done by status for theirs in a hearbeat.
with the bitterness you're holding on to, I don't think you should have to worry endlessly about your hundreds of lost seniority numbers...your medical will never make it anywhere near retirement anyway.
God, I still meet people in the terminal who answer every "How's it going?" with "Not bad for a guy who got screwed out of 20 years of seniority"...how absolutely, tragically pathetic.
You say you "own" a seniority number. What bull****. It's a system set up by a employer, nothing more. The company, the industry, and life don't owe you OR THE OCP BOYS a friggin' thing. Perhaps that is why the arbitrators rule against OAC...they like most of the Canadian public can;t stomach the stench of entitlement.
This war is all about envy, greed, and demographic warefare. Why is it the loudest mouthpieces in the OAC camp seem to fit a certain profile: 30-something fastburners who've seen their rapid career progession slow down postmerger? Oh boo ******* hoo, the guy who "could hold the 767 within two years" when he was hired. Yet the OCP guys are (as alluded to elsewhere) in the main, people who have already done the bulk of their careers elsewhere, usually at several different carriers. I know full well the young guns at AC would have been quite happy to see the OCP guys struggling in Asia or at Home Depot, may the shoe never be on the other foot.
Lastly, I think people are sick to death of hearing the OAC whining about how "it was always their dream to work at AC, they worked towards it since before they could walk"...news flash..that doesn't make you special or exalted. Many, many people would trade your hard-done by status for theirs in a hearbeat.
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Trek:
I guess that would explain why AC has thousands of cv's on file and there are countless forum threads on "getting on" , "what's the protcol", "when's the next G/S?", etc etc. I think you understand where i am going with this?. Add to that the 60,000 - 70,000 pax per day, must really suck that poor old AC?
With many of my personal friends at AT, whom are happy to be there and make a good living, they still say the would have prefered to go with AC. Does this make them "bad" or "less qualified"? Absolutely not, it's the luck of the draw. So don't chastise the pilots who are here for hiring policies for which we have no direct control of. Your argument about 1500 hour Caravan pilots holds no water. In Europe, for many many years, they have run AB initio programs and thrown 200 hour pilots in right seats of airliners. Happens all the time. 1500 , 15000, or 150,000 hours means nothing if one have a s_ _tty attitude.
As for the Jazz stuff you talk about, i was once a Jazz pilot, many moons ago, and i am happy to say i took the opportunity to join the mainline when it came up. Jazz pilots would hassle me about staying or leaving. My answer was simple and direct. I started flying with one dream. To fly for a major airline. I would be kidding myself any everyone else if i said i wanted to fly regionals for life. All that to say i know the inner workings of the Jazz plight, or should i say the Original Air Ontario Pilots, and you would be foolish to believe that they aren't looking out for their own benefits. It not only happens in aviation but in every other aspect of corporate Canada and for that matter, the World.
If you're happy where you are , good for you, because we are happy where we are too, albeit being screwed over in the seniority battle. I'm still happy to go to work and do the best i can.
Cheers
I guess that would explain why AC has thousands of cv's on file and there are countless forum threads on "getting on" , "what's the protcol", "when's the next G/S?", etc etc. I think you understand where i am going with this?. Add to that the 60,000 - 70,000 pax per day, must really suck that poor old AC?
With many of my personal friends at AT, whom are happy to be there and make a good living, they still say the would have prefered to go with AC. Does this make them "bad" or "less qualified"? Absolutely not, it's the luck of the draw. So don't chastise the pilots who are here for hiring policies for which we have no direct control of. Your argument about 1500 hour Caravan pilots holds no water. In Europe, for many many years, they have run AB initio programs and thrown 200 hour pilots in right seats of airliners. Happens all the time. 1500 , 15000, or 150,000 hours means nothing if one have a s_ _tty attitude.
As for the Jazz stuff you talk about, i was once a Jazz pilot, many moons ago, and i am happy to say i took the opportunity to join the mainline when it came up. Jazz pilots would hassle me about staying or leaving. My answer was simple and direct. I started flying with one dream. To fly for a major airline. I would be kidding myself any everyone else if i said i wanted to fly regionals for life. All that to say i know the inner workings of the Jazz plight, or should i say the Original Air Ontario Pilots, and you would be foolish to believe that they aren't looking out for their own benefits. It not only happens in aviation but in every other aspect of corporate Canada and for that matter, the World.
If you're happy where you are , good for you, because we are happy where we are too, albeit being screwed over in the seniority battle. I'm still happy to go to work and do the best i can.
Cheers
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thank you flyr4hire I like a good discussion...
what I can see from outside is that in every aspect of your company everything is based on working one group against another.
My point of view is that most of you guys are so busy liking their own belly that they forget to keep in mind the profession.
Your company is using such easy to understand methods to defeat you... you guys are just jumping in the game...
It's so obvious what they're doing. my son works for Jazz so lets take that exemple..I have a little bit of info.
Right now Mainline is hiring like crazy, the guys from jazz have taken pay cuts, layoff for ace and now you are hiring from outside.. You guys are thinking wow we are winning again.... WRONG.
ACE is winning. It's impossible to piss off more a Jazz guy than to play with his career... What can he do about it...??? The only thing he can do is be prepare to fight as hard has he can to win the Embraer in 2009. That's the only way he will improve his career.
Who's winning again... ACE the race to the botom is on and on.
It's easy for you or me sitting in the big metal making a decent life to just ignore those people but have you ever been discriminated in your life...!!!
Did you know that the only people in canada for wich it is impossible to get an interview at mainline at right now is for the guys that were on layoff at Jazz.
They have to wait for a seniority number to get an interview, they see every months people that didn't give anything to ACE in the past will have the best numbers at AC, get the promotions, the captain seat.
That is just 1 exemple of many we could talk about... Just don't tell me your union can't do nothing about it.. Your company is discriminating so many good people, they are just getting them sharp for the next game and you people are just sitting watching the best Player (ACE) putting his cards down on the table and winning again.
same with OAC vs OCP; one vs the other: you are all loosing...
no disrespect to you people just don't think ACPA is a really good player, just playing very short term shots
what I can see from outside is that in every aspect of your company everything is based on working one group against another.
My point of view is that most of you guys are so busy liking their own belly that they forget to keep in mind the profession.
Your company is using such easy to understand methods to defeat you... you guys are just jumping in the game...
It's so obvious what they're doing. my son works for Jazz so lets take that exemple..I have a little bit of info.
Right now Mainline is hiring like crazy, the guys from jazz have taken pay cuts, layoff for ace and now you are hiring from outside.. You guys are thinking wow we are winning again.... WRONG.
ACE is winning. It's impossible to piss off more a Jazz guy than to play with his career... What can he do about it...??? The only thing he can do is be prepare to fight as hard has he can to win the Embraer in 2009. That's the only way he will improve his career.
Who's winning again... ACE the race to the botom is on and on.
It's easy for you or me sitting in the big metal making a decent life to just ignore those people but have you ever been discriminated in your life...!!!
Did you know that the only people in canada for wich it is impossible to get an interview at mainline at right now is for the guys that were on layoff at Jazz.
They have to wait for a seniority number to get an interview, they see every months people that didn't give anything to ACE in the past will have the best numbers at AC, get the promotions, the captain seat.
That is just 1 exemple of many we could talk about... Just don't tell me your union can't do nothing about it.. Your company is discriminating so many good people, they are just getting them sharp for the next game and you people are just sitting watching the best Player (ACE) putting his cards down on the table and winning again.
same with OAC vs OCP; one vs the other: you are all loosing...
no disrespect to you people just don't think ACPA is a really good player, just playing very short term shots
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I rarely even think about seniority at work. It's only when I come home and read some instigating threads that I have any thoughts about it. Of course it's my own damn fault, I don't blame anybody. I go on line, read the thread and then foolishly get caught up in the circus. I work at a great place, and fly some real nice airplanes. Most times I don't even think about who I work for, just enjoy the work. That's reality. For those of you who work at some other fine companies, and Canada has some, good on you. But don't offer opinions based on what you've heard or been told by your "buddies". Ya gotta work here to understand. I know it's easy to trash a place you will never work for. Perhaps you never wanted to work here. Perhaps you tried and it didn't happen. Whatever the case, being an expert at what you don't understand is just a waist of time. You have all witnissed how nasty things can get when one's bread and butter are at risk. That, however, is not all that AC is about.
Cheers.
Cheers.
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Bruce Lee
It's all human the emotions you feel... but what I think is that as a Pilot group we have all forgotten OUR Profession and we haven't taken a really good care of it.
We tend to forget that we are all human and we should have respect for what we do and for each other. Instead of fighting we should all work in the direction of making the future of the profession brighter.
ALPA ACPA, it's all the same thing it's all made of people who are fighting for their own pocket. If we were a little more intelligent, we would do like other profession and all work together so the 20 year old guy coming out from flying school who has spent 50 000$, has a decent pay and be able to have a house a car and a family.
Stop thinking about only yourself, before you go to sleep tonight take 30 seconds or a minute to think about my son who also had a dream of becoming the big 777 AC captain. he also invested a lot of time and effort with this red company to be victim of discrimination from your part. He is the one who has trouble sleeping at night because of us big union guys who never thinks about the future generation.
it might be your son one day...!!!!
That should be the Purpose of those BIG Union. Making life decent for our people The Entire Pilot Group in Canada.
It's all human the emotions you feel... but what I think is that as a Pilot group we have all forgotten OUR Profession and we haven't taken a really good care of it.
We tend to forget that we are all human and we should have respect for what we do and for each other. Instead of fighting we should all work in the direction of making the future of the profession brighter.
ALPA ACPA, it's all the same thing it's all made of people who are fighting for their own pocket. If we were a little more intelligent, we would do like other profession and all work together so the 20 year old guy coming out from flying school who has spent 50 000$, has a decent pay and be able to have a house a car and a family.
Stop thinking about only yourself, before you go to sleep tonight take 30 seconds or a minute to think about my son who also had a dream of becoming the big 777 AC captain. he also invested a lot of time and effort with this red company to be victim of discrimination from your part. He is the one who has trouble sleeping at night because of us big union guys who never thinks about the future generation.
it might be your son one day...!!!!
That should be the Purpose of those BIG Union. Making life decent for our people The Entire Pilot Group in Canada.
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I hear you trek. Trouble is, two unions at one company can't work. That should have been fixed from day one. Some day this will all be over (soon actually). But lawyers will laugh for a long time. I do feel for those who don't make it in, especially for political reasons. I feel lucky to be here.