The “Original Air Canada” Pilots lose again.
 

The “Original Air Canada” Pilots lose again.

The ALPA Merger Committee (representing the former Canadian Pilots) reported February 15 that the Appeals Court quashed ACPA’s (representing the 'Original Air Canada' Pilots) appeal of the Dawson Decision after a day of courtroom action. Details of the Appeal court decision aren’t available yet.

If you have trouble sleeping at night or have a burning desire to know more about the protracted pilot merger at Air Canada here are some of the relevant documents. Over 6 years and $8 million dollars later...

http://acpilot.********.com/2006/02/...ose-again.html

I'd like to know how these guys are going to renegotiate their wages upwards this summer when they are still at each others throats 6 years after this merger was declared. What a mess.

I think you hate more than just cats, mate.
AS difficult as it may be for you to understand, the negotiation of salary is negotiated as a united group. Salary does not devide us, seniority does. The OAC group have one more crack at seniority fairness through an upcoming CIRB decision. What happens after that is anyone's guess, but I can tell you that for a group of professionals, life goes on, no matter what. Like so many others, you're trying to make this sound like the end of the world, again. Life is so harsh here at the evil empire that we should just give up. Right?:ok:

I clicked thru some of the links on the website so tell me if Im wrong. It says the 777 vote last year was hijacked by a group of Original Air Canada malcontents who linked the 'No' vote to getting their seniority increased at the expense of the Canadian Pilots. How am I doing so far?

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/index.cfm?pid=15298

Then it says a mediator, Teplitsky, put together a seniority list last fall that favoured the 'Original Air Canada Pilots' and of course pushed the Canadian Pilots down the list further.

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/index.cfm?pid=15295

The trouble is that the Candian Pilots didnt even show up for the mediation becuase the whole process was illegal in their opinion. Correct so far?

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/i...28&ACT=Display

Is this how the mediation process works in Canada? One party shows up, the other doesnt and its called a mediation?

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/i...86&ACT=Display

Im curious what you rate your chances are at the CIRB to change the seniority list. Slim? None? Not a chance? In civilized countries thats what the chances would be but Im straying from the point.

My point is this:

If last year ACPA decided to let a 777 vote get hijacked to get better seniority at the expense of the Canadian Pilots, why would any Canadian Pilots vote against anything in the future?

I would think they would vote yes to avoid getting dragged into the seniority muck again, don't you?

My point is the seniority issue is coming to an end. Some will be happy with the outcome, some won't. It won't ruin any future negotiations with the company. When it comes to money especially, I don't think we have a problem being united. That's the point you're missing.
As far as what our chances are, I can tell you that as an original AC pilot, I just want this thing to be resolved, one way or the other and because where I work is the only important thing, I am willing to live with the outcome. Something you don't accept. How am I doing so far? In the past, the seniority issue was used by both camps as a barganing tool. All that is coming to an end. I don't know who you work for (my guess is you sympithyze with the Gucci boys, ex CP), but I would suggest you spend your free time worrying about your own camp. You're putting way too much effort into this dude.

I Hate says: "The trouble is that the Candian Pilots didnt even show up for the mediation becuase the whole process was illegal in their opinion. Correct so far?"

Maybe someone should remind the ALPA camp who suggested the above mentioned mediation. Can you spell.....C.I.R.B?

Cheers

oac loses again
 

Okay Brucelee. I can understand why you want to believe this. To believe otherwise would be admitting a large strategic error on 'OAC's part.

Lets back up a few months into the past and test your theory.

Heres your reference document: http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/index.cfm?pid=15299

I would guess that by mid-June 2005 that the former Canadian Pilots were comfortable that the Keller award was going to stay because by that point ACPA had lost every court appeal and CIRB decision since July 2002 when the Mitchnick Award was thrown out.

In this environment I would think that everyone is on the same page on the 777 negotiations, all pilots from both sides of the fence are focused on getting the best deal they can get to fly the 777 airplanes. The deal is not good enough and gets voted down. The company says its because of seniority, ACPA says the same thing but was seniority the factor?

I dont think so.

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/index.cfm?pid=15298

In the spring 2005 Air Canada was seeking further concessions from only the pilot group (which would require a vote), as it sought to introduce new aircraft from Boeing. The whole pilot group, Air Canada and ex-Canadian pilots alike, were concession weary after taking the lion's share of cuts during Air Canada's CCAA restructuring. Also, they were now well aware that the senior management of Air Canada had taken millions of dollars each in share options, not available to any other employees, during the restructuring. Mr. Milton stands to make tens of millions from his share options and the pilots see this as unfair for him to ask them for more cuts. By a narrow margin, they voted NO (one third of the pilots didn't even bother to vote).

This no vote was hijacked and labeled a vote against the Keller award by a small, but vocal group of a few hundred disgruntled OAC pilots. After the fact, the other OAC pilots jumped on the band wagon, seeing an opportunity to further enhance their seniority.


ACPA decided to capitalize on the 'seniority ' aspect and hired a mediator to decide two things.

1- Should the 777 deal be changed?

2- Should the Keller seniority list be adjusted?

The answer to both questions came quickly.

1- The 777 deal stayed the same, no changes and all pilots are stuck with the deal they voted down months earlier.

2- There was no reason for the former Canadian Pilots to show up for the 2nd question because the CIRB didnt sanction the process and the Canadian Pilots won every court decision and CIRB ruling for years. They stayed away and ACPA produced a list which favoured themselves.

The only hurdles ACPA faces in the future is :

Does the seniority process carried out meet this test?

Natural justice

A word used to refer to situations where audi alteram partem (the right to be heard) and nemo judex in parte sua (no person may judge their own case) apply. The principles of natural justice were derived from the Romans who believed that some legal principles were "natural" or self-evident and did not require a statutory basis. These two basic legal safeguards govern all decisions by judges or government officials when they take quasi-judicial or judicial decisions.

http://www.duhaime.org/dictionary/dict-no.aspx

If it doesnt the 'seniority' process ACPA carried out in the fall is dead in the water, your lawyers probably already told you I hope. You probably knew yourself when the Canadian Pilots didnt show up for the 'mediation'.


Which brings us to this,

Why would the former Canadian Pilots vote "no" on any future deal if it means another unrecognized 'seniority' process with another mediator? There is less risk to voting yes. The company knows this, and you know it but wont admit it.

My guess is Air Canada will low-ball ACPA as much as possible. Look, ACE just made more money than any carrier in North America last year and they are laying-off managers. They will low-ball you and you dont have the membership support to counter it because you burned 1/3 of them last year and they wont forget it.

Thats my take. Yours is different. I accept that and we'll see who's right in the next few months.

Your references come from your own camp. Why should I buy what you're selling? Would I be able to convince you if I posted something from the OAC forum? Anyway, I could repost my initial thread in reply to your massive brainwashing undertaking but I think I would be wasting my time and yours.
I don't know how many OAC feel the same way I do about this issue, but I can tell you the majority do want an end to it. Those of us who don't stand to lose or gain much just want to move on. What part of that don't you understand? Tell me something, if the CIRB rules in our favour, are you willing to accept it and move on? You certainly didn't accept Mitchnik, why would you do anything different now? If moving on is made impossible because of this nonsense then I suspect we will just be shooting ourselves in the foot.
Do me a favour, if we ever fly together, don't bore me with ancient latin and Roman beliefs. I grew up on that stuff. Can't take anymore of it. Ciao Gucciman.

I understand the 'Original Air Canada' (oac) pilots want to portray themselves as the 'reasonable' group who is willing to move on. Too bad the facts don't support the supposition. It's the OAC group that has initated every seniority-related legal and CIRB action in the past 3 1/2 years and lost.

Here are some facts, something you seem unable to accept.

Using 'Years of Service' as a reference, most Canadian Pilots have lost seniority. How much seniority have you gained Brucelee, at the expense of Canadian Pilots? How much more seniority do you need before you deem the seniority process fair?

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/s..._service_2.jpg

Of course, lost seniority means lost earning power.

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/s...20earnings.jpg

How much more money do you need to make on the backs of the Canadian Pilots before its enough?

Losing seniority means Canadian Pilots dont make it to the top of the list, but OAC pilots do:

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/s...nt%20-%202.jpg

Notice the difference between the premerger retirements and the K_Award retirements (Keller). OAC pilots get to the top 6% more often, Canadian Pilots get to the top 14% less. And this is the Keller list you dont like and dont think is fair. You want more seniority Brucelee.

Download and compare: Who is at the top of the seniority list in 4 years. How far down the list do you have to go before you see the first Canadian pilot?

Keller List 2003

Keller list January 2010


To date, OAC-ACPA has lost every court action and every CIRB decision since July 10, 2002 regarding seniority. Why do you suppose that is? Why do you suppose OAC-ACPA is unable to 'move on'? Greed? Mitchnick-list envy?

I look at your posts and observe a couple things.

First, very quickly you resort to name calling and rebuke. This suggests to me your arguements are shallow or non-existent.

Second, you are unable to support your arguements with anything other than, 'That information is from your camp'. The information I bring is what was presented to the CIRB and the courts. I didnt make it up, the ALPA lawyers did and submitted it as evidence of what the Keller list has done to Canadian pilots careers. You might want to dismiss it but the courts and the CIRB have accepted it. In the end Court and CIRB decisions outweighs your OAC innuendo.

Holy **** pal, you need to get a life. You have just proven why AC has deteriorated to the level it has since we "merged". To answer your question, I lost 560 positions to give you a job and if the CIRB "sees it our way" I'll gain back 50. No, not 500, but 50!!! I and many others are willing to move on. Are you willing to do the same if you lose? Don't you get it? Even if you lose you have F*cked me and many others for the rest of our lives. So put away your graphs, charts and that fancy perfume and cross your fingers so you win. Consider yourself lucky to even be discussing this nonsense. You came very close to having to update your resume a few years ago and hope for the best. Now you're telling me how hurt you are and how bad you have it. I really feel for you. Maybe we'll put on a wine and cheese party for the top brass at the CIRB. But you know what? It won't work for us. You know why? You beat us to it. You've waisted my time. You've waisted yours. Happy trails and keep those shoes shined.

Looks like you have nothing constructive to add Brucelee, just more diatribe and unsubstantiated nonsense backed up by nothing.

Looks good on you and shows your true colors. Keep going. I love it. :ok:

All my "constructive" ideas you would not accept. The courts have proven that even constructive talk doesn't help when the top brass are being wined and dined. What's even funnier is they admit to it. You must really be keeled over from the laughter. You must really be enjoying it. Although, I must admit, your tactics of whyning and complaining have worked. So that's the plan for the future, right? Like I said, one more shot at a token of fairness and we can all live happily ever after. Oh, by the way when you retire as an airline pilot and not a school bus driver, you probably won't thank me, but be sure and thank the CIRB. They just love your parties. Oh, and don't forget to thank Robert. I bet you'll be on that 777 sooner than I will. Yep, you've really earned it. Enjoy. You're welcome, partner.

Yo Brucey:
You almost had to blow the dust off your resume a not too long ago as well so easy fella. If Milton keeps selling things (like Airplanes, Frequent Flyer Plans and Regional Carriers), and a AC loses another 100 million next quarter you may want to start looking at updating it.
Why don't you AC/CAL people just learn to get along so you can build profitable and happy airline. What has happened in the past is history. Seriously.

CanAV8r.
And if you go back and read my threads, you'll find that for my part, I'm advocating exactly what you're saying. Perhaps you should address your thread to your friend who hates cats.
I'm curious as to what we "sold", as you put it. We haven't sold anything. Not one airplane, not Jazz, not frequent flyer programs. Milton has turned some assets into publicly traded companies. They are still held by ACE. In fact AC is now stronger because of that. So I'm not sure where you're going with that. And for the record, why don't you remind us all about ACE's nice little profit for the year.Oh I see, it doesn't quite fit your point of view, eh, bro? Now let me guess, you're not from around here are you? Happy? That's all we are around here.

Dear Brucelee and Canav8r. Could you both tell us how much more or less you would be earning now if the merger had not happened(based on an assumption that CAIL would still be in business). I know there are variables but let's assume zero growth for CAIL and only slight growth for AC.

punka.
The merger had little if any effect on AC's financial woes other than approx 4Bil dollars in debt of CAIL debt on top of the egsisting debt that AC had was to be absorbed by AC. This debt was refinanced.
Salaries were slashed as a result of reorganization. They were further reduced for those who lost seniority because they could no longer hold the equipment they were on and were forced to fly smaller ones and many even lost their left seat positions. That can certainly be attributed to the merger. It is hard to put a number on so many variables. Maybe someone who has the time can come up with some fancy charts and graphs.

I originally posted at the top of the thread this : I'd like to know how these guys are going to renegotiate their wages upwards this summer when they are still at each others throats 6 years after this merger was declared. What a mess.

Brucelee, although he has shown he is incapable of bringing facts to back up his suppostions and innuendo, has demonstrated quite competently why ACPA is in such a mess. Brucelee and OAC's open hatred and invective towards the Canadian Pilots means that they cannot be trusted and are not trusted. Its a divide that Brucelee has shown in this thread for all to see.

Why would any Canadian Pilot unify with such a twisted and inward looking group like OAC? There isnt much common ground when your supposed union is out to cheat you in an illegal seniority fight.

Air Canada has been able to exploit this divide in the past and, mark my words, they will exploit this summer. ACPA is a paper tiger. All talk, but offering nothing of value to its members.

Good luck Brucelee in attempting to put a lid on ACPA duplicity. You'll need it. All your taunts reinforce my position and weaken yours.



A recap of events last summer:

http://acpilot.********.com/2005/10/...nes-pilot.html

June 20, 2005
Subsequent to the failure of the 777/787 ratification in June 2005 ACPA issues a news release indicating:

* ‘The Association notes that the proposed contract amendment failed to gain support, in large part, due to the ongoing dissatisfaction of a number of ACPA members over how the Air Canada and Canadian Airlines pilot seniority lists were merged after the two pilot groups were brought together in 2001.

July 2005
Contrary to ACPA's news release, a poll of Air Canada pilots indicates 83% are opposed to the 777 deal due to the agreement's concessionary nature, 17% due to seniority issues.

http://tinypic.com/egq2aw.gif

September 23, 2005
ACPA issues a news release stating:

* "The decision to begin the mediation process was approved by ACPA's Master Executive Council today," said Captain Kent Wilson, President of ACPA."We sincerely hope that, Mr. Teplitsky, and the mediation process can bring the seniority issue to a final settlement," said Captain Wilson. "For the pilots and for the Company, we must resolve the issue in a fair way that allows us to move forward."

September 25, 2005
ALPA issues a news release indicating:

* ‘that Air Canada and ACPA both agreed in 2003 that their current seniority arrangement, known as the Keller Award, would be final and binding. "Both parties are being unethical and dishonest for their narrow self-interest; ACPA wants to push the OCP group as far down the seniority list as possible and Air Canada is pretending to assist ACPA so that they can re-activate their new aircraft order. This has nothing to do with fairness…’

September 29, 2005
ALPA issues the following discussion paper to assist xCAIL pilots in their lobbying efforts:

http://tinypic.com/egs83k.gif


October 12, 2005

Former Canadian pilots issue a news release confirming their refusal to participate in a new Air Canada mediation on pilot seniority issue:

* "Re-opening the seniority issue is simply Air Canada responding to what amounts to blackmail by its former Air Canada pilots, who the company wants to appease so they will accept the acquisition of new Boeing 777/787's," Captain Robert McInnis, who represents 1,200 former Canadian Pilots and chairs the Former Canadian Pilots Integration Committee said. "In 2003, Air Canada management, original Air Canada pilots and former Canadian Airlines pilots all agreed that the pilot seniority award of Arbitrator Brian Keller would be 'final and binding'. This move shows a troubling disrespect for the law. We trust the CIRB (Canadian Industrial Relations Board) will unequivocally reject this appeal."

* "In the unlikely event that the CIRB agrees to re-open the issue, it would be a dangerous precedent that could jeopardize the seniority awards of all other Air Canada unions, all final and binding arbitrators' awards, and all CIRB decisions," McInnis added.

I have to admit, cat hater, when it comes to artistic impression, you certainly have an advantage over me. Add in some Russian-style judges at the CIRB, and there you have it!! A gold medal, well earned. The OAC have some pretty fancy graphs and charts too but unfortunately are not waisting their time on this forum as I am. Those charts would no doubt show some very different numbers. I don't have the numbers, but that doesn't take away the personal experience that I have gone through to make room for the blue gang. That's not graphs and charts, that's real life. Of course in this country, everyone is entitled to a job, even at the expense of others so when I whent to talk to my banker about my new degraded finances, I couldn't blame it on the merger. No, that would sound like I was whyning. Ever fly an RJ cat hater? No, eh? See after losing 560 positions to my blue buddy, I was trained on one while he continued to make twice what I did flying that Airbus that I was awarded before the "merger". I don't need your lousy graphs and brainwashing. For that matter, I don't need my own OAC charts. I lived through the real effects of the merger. Yep, you guys are the experts at mergers. How many are you up to now? Four, five? And you're still fighting about those past mergers amongst yourselves, so why should this one be any different. I used to work for a great company. But hey, the way I see it, I still work for a great company. Every family has an oddball. The Liberals asked us, no wait a minute, forced us, to adopt a delinquent and Milton took the bait. Like I said, you're gonna look mighty fine sitting in that 777. Congradulations on an honourable career. Oh ya, that last line is a knock-out, "all final and binding arbitrators' awards..." Was Mitchnik not final and binding until you decided to object? McInnis, now there's an honest salesman. You guys must pretty proud of him.

These would be the graphs and charts that caused OAC-ACPA to lose every time in the courts and at the CIRB since July 2002?

Keep swinging Brucelee, I love watching you try to twist out of the traps youve built for yourself. :ok:

Just curious, what kind of wine was it? Was there lots of cheese and crackers? I bet you guys hired a hooker too.

I Hate Cats:

re-read CIRB decision 925, paragraphs 18 - 21, and then tell us again who sanctioned the Teplitsky process. You know where to find that decision, it's mixed in with all your OCP graphs, propoganda, and regurgitation.