BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Anybody care to join in with the arguement I am having with myself?
Please have a read of the following. I know it has been discussed before, but just as a refresher -
Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992
Now, on first reading of the current offer made to cabin crew, it was my opinion that it was a clear breach of this section of TULRcA 1992. Then, with more reading I though that it would be impossible to induce a member to leave in the past tense, i.e. the 14th December, when we are at the 21st.
However, this is the second time an offer has been made to non union members, so a pattern of inducement could being happening, which may lead to a challenge. But this was then protected against, by saying that this would be the last time, as a yes vote would remove this offer for good.
Any thoughts?
Please have a read of the following. I know it has been discussed before, but just as a refresher -
Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992
Now, on first reading of the current offer made to cabin crew, it was my opinion that it was a clear breach of this section of TULRcA 1992. Then, with more reading I though that it would be impossible to induce a member to leave in the past tense, i.e. the 14th December, when we are at the 21st.
However, this is the second time an offer has been made to non union members, so a pattern of inducement could being happening, which may lead to a challenge. But this was then protected against, by saying that this would be the last time, as a yes vote would remove this offer for good.
Any thoughts?
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Litebulbs
I don't think there is a breach of the act in this case as BF is quite clear that the offer is only made to non-union crew on 14th Dec. I am pretty sure that, after the last offer was made and accepted back in June, many crew resigned from the union in the hope that they could accept it eventually. BF told them that it wasn't possible at that time but he would keep in mind that many more would be interested. This is his second chance for them - who knows how many will fall into that group but it will be interesting if the numbers are ever made public!
If there is a NO strike vote though and he makes individual offers to Unite members then he would be breaching the act yet that seems to be what is suggested in the second part of that message. That'll upset Unite! Expect lots of ranting soon!
Ottergirl
I don't think there is a breach of the act in this case as BF is quite clear that the offer is only made to non-union crew on 14th Dec. I am pretty sure that, after the last offer was made and accepted back in June, many crew resigned from the union in the hope that they could accept it eventually. BF told them that it wasn't possible at that time but he would keep in mind that many more would be interested. This is his second chance for them - who knows how many will fall into that group but it will be interesting if the numbers are ever made public!
If there is a NO strike vote though and he makes individual offers to Unite members then he would be breaching the act yet that seems to be what is suggested in the second part of that message. That'll upset Unite! Expect lots of ranting soon!
Ottergirl
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ottergirl
This is all going to be about actual numbers rather than percentages. The majority of the minority will not work this time, in my opinion. If it is a no, then the future will be set, along with the restructuring of the negotiating agreements with Unite and BA. You will probably see a mutual termination of the current recognition agreements and a new single structure formed quite quickly, bit only time will tell.
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BA's latest offer appears to be a clever move to circumnavigate the law. A few week ago they excluded members of Unite, because they had to respect the union's bargaining rights, and so only non-members were invited to sign the offer. But the more moderate members of Unite, having since resigned from Unite, have had to wait until now to sign. Not only that, but BA have cunningly stated that current members who intend to vote no are free to sign too, showing a degree of respect for the democratic process. If it's a yes vote, so be it, but here's a carrot, dangling in front of you. Democracy at it's best. A reminder;
Two years of contractual pay rises worth up to 5.9% from February 2011
A permanent, contractual, variable pay top up scheme for Heathrow crew on Worldwide and Eurofleet
Protection for your terms and conditions, now and in the future.
Think of the rest of us though, who took a pay cut.
I agree that the New/Mixed Fleet contract is not attractive, but this latest offer has nothing in common with it, it even protects you from it, and all 'Legacy' crew would be very wise to sign.
It would be foolish to believe that BA haven't thought very carefully about the wording and tactic of this latest offer. A wise man knows when he is beaten, and the members of Unite have surely been beaten by BA in this dispute. But the good news is there's still a great offer on the table
Use your vote though, it's important. Vote no (it's a confidential vote!!!), don't give Unite the mandate for strike action, and the healing process can begin at last.
Two years of contractual pay rises worth up to 5.9% from February 2011
A permanent, contractual, variable pay top up scheme for Heathrow crew on Worldwide and Eurofleet
Protection for your terms and conditions, now and in the future.
Think of the rest of us though, who took a pay cut.
I agree that the New/Mixed Fleet contract is not attractive, but this latest offer has nothing in common with it, it even protects you from it, and all 'Legacy' crew would be very wise to sign.
It would be foolish to believe that BA haven't thought very carefully about the wording and tactic of this latest offer. A wise man knows when he is beaten, and the members of Unite have surely been beaten by BA in this dispute. But the good news is there's still a great offer on the table
Use your vote though, it's important. Vote no (it's a confidential vote!!!), don't give Unite the mandate for strike action, and the healing process can begin at last.
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On the subject of 'democracy' - what if there is a majority in favour of strike action, but it is acheived by the votes mainly of part timers? People who work 50% or even 33% have just as much of a vote as full timers, yet have a lot less to lose.
Is it right that their votes have the same 'weight' as those of full timers who may rely on BA for their sole household income?
On the plus side, it means that 1 VCC recruit can do the work of up to 3 legacy crew strikers.
Is it right that their votes have the same 'weight' as those of full timers who may rely on BA for their sole household income?
On the plus side, it means that 1 VCC recruit can do the work of up to 3 legacy crew strikers.
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Save yourselves
For those of you who have done the Bedfont Boogie and are worried about "letting your mates down" by voting "No" to further strikes, for goodness vote "No" but, just tell them you voted "Yes" , and just hope against hope they are all doing the same. It is confidential, nobody will know!
A "Yes" vote makes an MF type contract for you MORE likely, not less. Remember the line in the offer to non members "Protection for your current terms and conditions, now and in the future". That's not easy for the Company to wriggle out of legally, when it's in print in the offer you sign (The same offer you'll be signing if a majority vote "No").
A successful "Yes" vote makes your future VERY uncertain.
Yes, I did sign this first time round, as did my wife, who still get's Unite bumf through, a year after resigning, and no doubt a ballot paper.
A "Yes" vote makes an MF type contract for you MORE likely, not less. Remember the line in the offer to non members "Protection for your current terms and conditions, now and in the future". That's not easy for the Company to wriggle out of legally, when it's in print in the offer you sign (The same offer you'll be signing if a majority vote "No").
A successful "Yes" vote makes your future VERY uncertain.
Yes, I did sign this first time round, as did my wife, who still get's Unite bumf through, a year after resigning, and no doubt a ballot paper.
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'Save yourselves'
Yes, having left the union 3 months ago, I wait with baited breath and pen poised to sign the latest agreement - also still getting union bumpf and, if a ballot paper arrives, will take it straight to management to show how inept the union administration is.
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Part-Time offer
As non-union crew I signed the contract as soon as it dropped through the letter box. BA are honouring their promise in that contract for all those on the part-time list to be offered a place by March 2011 and I have received confirmation of this. Other point guess BA only have to give a pay rise in Jan/Feb 2011 to those of us who have signed..... Anybody know for sure...
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123breath wrote:
They have not stated this at all. The offer is only available to them if the majority vote no and there are no further strikes. They are stating that the union members can vote for the current offer by voting no to strike action, but it will not be available to them unless the majority vote no to strike action.
Not only that, but BA have cunningly stated that current members who intend to vote no are free to sign too
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So they (BA) are in effect turning the strike ballot into a literal ballot on the offer as although promised by the union the opportunity to do this wasn’t forthcoming with the union moving straight to strike. Rather clever really and I would hope it gives some CC that were possibly going to abstain a good reason to vote.
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Snas & GS-Alpha
You're both right......I've just re-read the offer (it was late when I posted and I'd had a few drinks ;-/ )
It's still very clever, as it gives the Unite members something that their own union won't give them......the opportunity to make their own decision on the offer.
It is so important though that every Unite member votes. Do not waste your vote.
Vote no to strike action = Job security and end of dispute.
Vote yes to strike action = The opposite, a strike, and a very angry Willie.
Abstain from voting = One of the above, but you will have had no say in the result, wasted your vote, and should be ashamed. Wars have been fought for the right to vote. Make a decision, either way.
Be aware that BA are probably giving crew this one last chance to sign the new contract before really getting nasty. This is the end-game in my opinion.
It's still very clever, as it gives the Unite members something that their own union won't give them......the opportunity to make their own decision on the offer.
It is so important though that every Unite member votes. Do not waste your vote.
Vote no to strike action = Job security and end of dispute.
Vote yes to strike action = The opposite, a strike, and a very angry Willie.
Abstain from voting = One of the above, but you will have had no say in the result, wasted your vote, and should be ashamed. Wars have been fought for the right to vote. Make a decision, either way.
Be aware that BA are probably giving crew this one last chance to sign the new contract before really getting nasty. This is the end-game in my opinion.
Last edited by 123breath; 22nd Dec 2010 at 09:54.
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Ok I'll bite.
Many of you are in for a shock. BASSA will deliver a strong ballot and strike and bring BA to it's knees again.
What else do you expect us to do?
Stand by and watch our friends sacked and suspended for trivial matters?
Watch New Fleet take over our jobs?
Have our staff travel removed for taking legal and justified action?
Our time is near. BA are running out of it.
I was also told by DH that literally hundereds of flight deck have left BALPA and joined Unite and that BASSA membership has swelled again.
Things are turning.
Many of you are in for a shock. BASSA will deliver a strong ballot and strike and bring BA to it's knees again.
What else do you expect us to do?
Stand by and watch our friends sacked and suspended for trivial matters?
Watch New Fleet take over our jobs?
Have our staff travel removed for taking legal and justified action?
Our time is near. BA are running out of it.
I was also told by DH that literally hundereds of flight deck have left BALPA and joined Unite and that BASSA membership has swelled again.
Things are turning.
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I was also told by DH that literally hundereds of flight deck have left BALPA and joined Unite and that BASSA membership has swelled again.
Situation sounding desperate from the 'BASSA BEE'..
Wings clipped, spinning on the ground, watch out for the sting, so, stand back and watch its demise!
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Crewfriend:
I think you've got quite a shock in store! The pre xmas ballot last year and then the following ballot had high returns. But as we have witnessed thousands of BASSA 'YES' voters turned up for work and crossed a picket line. The next ballot that was the consultative ballot on the offer, which really was the eye opener. Only some 3,500 or so members voted in favour to reject the offer...... no where near the 7,000 figure of strikers your union is still falsely claiming have lost staff travel. I guess you will still be hoping for a figure close to that as this is what your honest and truthful union have told you. I would bet that the figure in favour of further IA will be closer to the consultative ballot as this is closer to the REAL figure of crew who lost their staff.
Not entirely sure why BASSA members can't see through these figures and work out that this result is going to be far lower than you think, even if it is in favour of further strikes.
With regards to the offer on ESS from BF, in the last few months I have flown with many crew who have left the union in the hope of signing this offer. I even have friends who went on strike last time that will be voting no this time and no doubt will be happy that they have the chance to sign the offer that many of us did in the summer. Please remember all the bravado and messages of support from members on other forums only account for a small minority of the community???
Not entirely sure why BASSA members can't see through these figures and work out that this result is going to be far lower than you think, even if it is in favour of further strikes.
With regards to the offer on ESS from BF, in the last few months I have flown with many crew who have left the union in the hope of signing this offer. I even have friends who went on strike last time that will be voting no this time and no doubt will be happy that they have the chance to sign the offer that many of us did in the summer. Please remember all the bravado and messages of support from members on other forums only account for a small minority of the community???
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Ranger
You can believe who you want. However I trust implicitly what BASSA my progressive moderate and solidarity union tells me, not what comes out of meeley mouthed weak "associations".
Not just in BA but all over Europe the workers are rising.
You can believe who you want. However I trust implicitly what BASSA my progressive moderate and solidarity union tells me, not what comes out of meeley mouthed weak "associations".
Not just in BA but all over Europe the workers are rising.
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Crewfriend
I think that is the funniest thing I've read on this forum. Thank you, I needed that
Why would DH say something like that, do you think?
Not one single BALPA member has left to join Unite. Trust me.
Why would DH say something like that, do you think?
Not one single BALPA member has left to join Unite. Trust me.
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I was also told by DH that literally hundereds of flight deck have left BALPA and joined Unite and that BASSA membership has swelled again.
However I trust implicitly what BASSA my progressive moderate and solidarity union tells me
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However I trust implicitly what BASSA my progressive moderate and solidarity union tells me
Thanks again
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Well with whatever ounce of respect I can muster you can laugh all you like.
Throughout this dispute and before it Unite has bent over bckwards to accommodate the company. We have and are always willing to negotiate.
But what weve seen is a systematic attck on our Union by Union Busters and the victimisation of innocent comrades.
Sacked for having a coffee? What would you lot do if that was one of yours?
We have no choice but to continue flighting and mark my words we will, even though it hurts us to do so.
All we want is the 4 points and New Fleet disbanded. We will even accept the imposition of one down.
Is that such a big ask?
Throughout this dispute and before it Unite has bent over bckwards to accommodate the company. We have and are always willing to negotiate.
But what weve seen is a systematic attck on our Union by Union Busters and the victimisation of innocent comrades.
Sacked for having a coffee? What would you lot do if that was one of yours?
We have no choice but to continue flighting and mark my words we will, even though it hurts us to do so.
All we want is the 4 points and New Fleet disbanded. We will even accept the imposition of one down.
Is that such a big ask?
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Here we go again...
Crewfriend...first post. Thank you for your considered input!!!
How DH knows the BALPA member numbers when he doesn't reliably know his own is a mystery. Without doubt some BALPA members have sympathy with the plight (self induced) of many members of BASSA, the open discussion of views within other unions is actually encouraged!!!
Also what do you consider a strong result? A majority of crew voting, them actually voting yes, a strike actually being voted for or one being supported by those who vote for it?
Would you be happier to actually see further disruption to passengers? Is that the idea of "bringing BA to it's knees"?
What exactly do you think going on strike will ACTUALLY achieve this time?
Jazzy
How DH knows the BALPA member numbers when he doesn't reliably know his own is a mystery. Without doubt some BALPA members have sympathy with the plight (self induced) of many members of BASSA, the open discussion of views within other unions is actually encouraged!!!
Also what do you consider a strong result? A majority of crew voting, them actually voting yes, a strike actually being voted for or one being supported by those who vote for it?
Would you be happier to actually see further disruption to passengers? Is that the idea of "bringing BA to it's knees"?
What exactly do you think going on strike will ACTUALLY achieve this time?
Jazzy