BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Oh they're seeing the consequences of their actions alright! Why do you think Unite hasn't called a strike yet? Because they really want to talk? Or because they really know they've lost the dispute and are negotiating terms of surrender? The BASSA forum will be boiling with rage over this latest delay I'll wager!
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Jetset lady,
Unfortunately you come accross as being a bit bitter.
Unfortunately you come accross as being a bit bitter.
I don't apologise for wanting Mixed Fleet crew to have workable roster and a decent living and I don't follow why wanting to keep my terms and conditions means that they can't have a reasonable salary as promised by BA, market rate plus 10%.
Yellow Pen,
I understand what you are saying but I can't help feeling that they will somehow spin this into some sort of victory again. (See WW's post.) Like I say, I'm probably wrong but it feels like too many concessions have been made to a union that has shown nothing but contempt for the company, the customers and other employees. How many chances should they be given? When is enough, enough? Isn't it time they were finally held to account for the misery and disruption that they have caused?
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Well I think the last couple of posts show one of the problems, many on this site are having, and that is that many of you are actually unhappy a settlement might be insight because many of you wanted to punish the strikers!
As someone who is cabin crew and is daily having to work in this unpleasant situation, my view is that a settlement would be good for all, good for crew, good for our passengers and good for our airline and I think KW agrees with me and that is why an end to this is very near.
I am quite sad that that seems to upset so many of you because it makes me very happy. I also think that many Bassa supporters, well the vast majority of them, will be happy too.
Of course they are going to paint it as a victory but all of us know they have actually lost and damaged themselves as a union and us as a cabin crew community. It does not matter what they say, we and they know the truth.
The real victor is BA management because they have got huge savings from Mixed Fleet and will have gained their right to manage back and will have a clear run at all the other inefficient departments and there are many!!
As someone who is cabin crew and is daily having to work in this unpleasant situation, my view is that a settlement would be good for all, good for crew, good for our passengers and good for our airline and I think KW agrees with me and that is why an end to this is very near.
I am quite sad that that seems to upset so many of you because it makes me very happy. I also think that many Bassa supporters, well the vast majority of them, will be happy too.
Of course they are going to paint it as a victory but all of us know they have actually lost and damaged themselves as a union and us as a cabin crew community. It does not matter what they say, we and they know the truth.
The real victor is BA management because they have got huge savings from Mixed Fleet and will have gained their right to manage back and will have a clear run at all the other inefficient departments and there are many!!
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Ok, let's say some amicable agreement is found. Fantastic. BA claim everything is now rosy in the garden. BASSA claim victory. We all go back to being nice fluffy cabin crew. Until next time the company wants to make changes, that is.
This is not about "punishing" anyone. This is about learning that actions have consequences. As it stands, BASSA won't be any weaker than they currently are. They still have enough of a following to claw their way back into favour. If anything, they will probably be stronger. According to them and their members, they were victorious, remember. And on it goes. Each cycle being more destructive than the last....
This is not about "punishing" anyone. This is about learning that actions have consequences. As it stands, BASSA won't be any weaker than they currently are. They still have enough of a following to claw their way back into favour. If anything, they will probably be stronger. According to them and their members, they were victorious, remember. And on it goes. Each cycle being more destructive than the last....
Last edited by jetset lady; 15th Apr 2011 at 16:16.
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@Jetset - I must say I'm a lot more bullish about the future than you seem to be. BASSA may be given a face-saving way out of this, but in the final analysis when all the hoo-hah has died down, their members are going to find themselves doing some soul searching. They have had a 2 year industrial dispute, with the associated stress, loss of earnings and loss of staff travel, and now they best they can hope for is to get back to where they were previously but with the impositions standing and Mixed Fleet burgeoning. People are going to ask what they gained from all that, and barring some loose notion of 'respect', the answer's going to be nothing. Holley and Malone will be gone. BASSA has been stripped of power, not only because they've been revealed as impotent, but because so much of that power existed only because BA misguidedly gave them it. BA has learned it's lesson and now operate the way it wants to, whether BASSA like it or not. When this is all over, BASSA will be nothing but an angry, irrelevant talking shop with a diminishing membership.
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From the point of view of moving forward into a future where BA is not blighted by the English disease of industrial action every year by one group or another I would like to see this dispute ended with BASSA in ruins, utterly destroyed. They have behaved in a most appalling manner throughout this dispute. If they continue, even as a rump, they will continue in this form of behaviour unless it is obvious, even to the likes of watersidewonker, that they have been thoroughly beaten and that BASSA will never, ever be allowed to act in such a fashion again.
I would not like to see mass sackings, rather I would have preferred BA to go after the union financially, going after the individuals would always seem to be vindictive, even if it was thoroughly deserved. Like JSL, I do not believe that this 28 day extension really serves any useful purpose. If the strike is over Easter or the middle of May it needs to come or UNITE need to publically admit that they cannot strike as their members would be liable to dismissal for breach of contract.
This dispute has dragged on far too long, with WW at the helm there was a feeling that the cancer that is BASSA would be cut out. Now I am not so sure. KW is being far too conciliatory towards people that, through their behaviour, have no right to be at the negotiating table.
I am not anti-union, I believe they are essential and indeed I am a Trade Union member. However, if any of my reps had set up porn sites, or portrayed the CEO as the architect of genocide or carried on in the frankly childish and inane manner that DH has done they would have lost my support instantly.
BA should not back away from the once in a lifetime opportunity to normalise industrial relations between the cabin crew union and themselves. If they fail to do this now they will not have another chance. The staff that have supported BA, the VCCs etc will be far less likely to help out in the future if the know that in the end BA will cave in to a paper tiger, and it will serve only to re-embolden the hardliners in BASSA. There is ample evidence that any immediate strike threat from BASSA is largely irrelevant except in that it would present BA a golden opportunity to really put the screws on BASSA. I called BASSA a cancer quite deliberately, they are a festering sore at the heart of BA constantly poisoning and souring everything they touch. Like a cancer they need to be excised, it is time for radical surgery.
I would not like to see mass sackings, rather I would have preferred BA to go after the union financially, going after the individuals would always seem to be vindictive, even if it was thoroughly deserved. Like JSL, I do not believe that this 28 day extension really serves any useful purpose. If the strike is over Easter or the middle of May it needs to come or UNITE need to publically admit that they cannot strike as their members would be liable to dismissal for breach of contract.
This dispute has dragged on far too long, with WW at the helm there was a feeling that the cancer that is BASSA would be cut out. Now I am not so sure. KW is being far too conciliatory towards people that, through their behaviour, have no right to be at the negotiating table.
I am not anti-union, I believe they are essential and indeed I am a Trade Union member. However, if any of my reps had set up porn sites, or portrayed the CEO as the architect of genocide or carried on in the frankly childish and inane manner that DH has done they would have lost my support instantly.
BA should not back away from the once in a lifetime opportunity to normalise industrial relations between the cabin crew union and themselves. If they fail to do this now they will not have another chance. The staff that have supported BA, the VCCs etc will be far less likely to help out in the future if the know that in the end BA will cave in to a paper tiger, and it will serve only to re-embolden the hardliners in BASSA. There is ample evidence that any immediate strike threat from BASSA is largely irrelevant except in that it would present BA a golden opportunity to really put the screws on BASSA. I called BASSA a cancer quite deliberately, they are a festering sore at the heart of BA constantly poisoning and souring everything they touch. Like a cancer they need to be excised, it is time for radical surgery.
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Juan tugoh,
It is all very well saying that BA should cut out a cancer but in all reality that is not possible to do.
As Unite have well over 40% of BA cabin crew as it's members BA has no choice but to negotiate with them.
I am sure that this settlement will remove a lot of Bassa's power to partake in the everyday running of BA. Prior to this dispute Bassa were involved in numerous steering groups and meetings about all sorts of things. While Bassa has been in dispute with BA, BA have been using normal cabin crew in these processes and things have been getting done a lot quicker and they have been gaining advise from crew that actually fly, all the time, and are therefore more aware of current issues on line.
I am sure Bassa will get back staff travel and the right to negotiate over pay etc. and probably some kind of assurance, worded slightly differently to the one we already have in the offer; but in exchange for this, the way BA currently do business with them will, I am sure, be changed.
Anyway, that is my hope.
I would like a settlement that leaves everyone feeling that they have won because that way we will get back to a more productive airline faster.
It is all very well saying that BA should cut out a cancer but in all reality that is not possible to do.
As Unite have well over 40% of BA cabin crew as it's members BA has no choice but to negotiate with them.
I am sure that this settlement will remove a lot of Bassa's power to partake in the everyday running of BA. Prior to this dispute Bassa were involved in numerous steering groups and meetings about all sorts of things. While Bassa has been in dispute with BA, BA have been using normal cabin crew in these processes and things have been getting done a lot quicker and they have been gaining advise from crew that actually fly, all the time, and are therefore more aware of current issues on line.
I am sure Bassa will get back staff travel and the right to negotiate over pay etc. and probably some kind of assurance, worded slightly differently to the one we already have in the offer; but in exchange for this, the way BA currently do business with them will, I am sure, be changed.
Anyway, that is my hope.
I would like a settlement that leaves everyone feeling that they have won because that way we will get back to a more productive airline faster.
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From the point of view of moving forward into a future where BA is not blighted by the English disease of industrial action every year by one group or another I would like to see this dispute ended with BASSA in ruins, utterly destroyed.
They have behaved in a most appalling manner throughout this dispute. If they continue, even as a rump, they will continue in this form of behaviour unless it is obvious, even to the likes of watersidewonker, that they have been thoroughly beaten and that BASSA will never, ever be allowed to act in such a fashion again.
If the strike is over Easter or the middle of May it needs to come or UNITE need to publically admit that they cannot strike as their members would be liable to dismissal for breach of contract.
This dispute has dragged on far too long, with WW at the helm there was a feeling that the cancer that is BASSA would be cut out. Now I am not so sure. KW is being far too conciliatory towards people that, through their behaviour, have no right to be at the negotiating table.
I am not anti-union, I believe they are essential and indeed I am a Trade Union member. However, if any of my reps had set up porn sites, or portrayed the CEO as the architect of genocide or carried on in the frankly childish and inane manner that DH has done they would have lost my support instantly.
BA should not back away from the once in a lifetime opportunity to normalise industrial relations between the cabin crew union and themselves. If they fail to do this now they will not have another chance.
The staff that have supported BA, the VCCs etc will be far less likely to help out in the future if the know that in the end BA will cave in to a paper tiger, and it will serve only to re-embolden the hardliners in BASSA.
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BG, I am sure that you are right that things will have changed and undoubtedly for the better. I do believe that BASSA does need to know that any settlement is not in any way a win. It may be able to point to some things that it has salvaged from ruin, but for good ongoing relationships everyone needs to understand where they fit in.
People are far happier in a well defined relationship that when things are uncertain. BASSA need to to understand the place of a well run union branch and that is something that has been clearly demonstrated that they have still to learn. Giving them any hint of a win will only prolong the unpleasantness. It may stop initially but it will linger on like a bad smell with further industrial unrest as BASSA try to control the next issue, be it window blinds or hot towels. Perhaps BASSA do not need to be destroyed but they must be educated as to their role in the company, a "win" for them would not let them learn the lesson that they desperately need to learn.
People are far happier in a well defined relationship that when things are uncertain. BASSA need to to understand the place of a well run union branch and that is something that has been clearly demonstrated that they have still to learn. Giving them any hint of a win will only prolong the unpleasantness. It may stop initially but it will linger on like a bad smell with further industrial unrest as BASSA try to control the next issue, be it window blinds or hot towels. Perhaps BASSA do not need to be destroyed but they must be educated as to their role in the company, a "win" for them would not let them learn the lesson that they desperately need to learn.
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I also don't think you need to worry that KW will give in to Bassa.
I happen to know that he is on record in saying that he believes previous management have not tackled Bassa and the power they have over initiatives and changes, and that he intends to make this part of any settlement.
I think he will deal with all of this in a much better way than WW, who in my opinion actually made this whole thing worse, and I do believe he will listen to some of the reps with the help of this outside company and an agreement will be made, and it will, I think, be a good agreement for BA and not so good for Bassa but one that they can take to their membership and spin as a success!
That's my opinion and also my hope!
I happen to know that he is on record in saying that he believes previous management have not tackled Bassa and the power they have over initiatives and changes, and that he intends to make this part of any settlement.
I think he will deal with all of this in a much better way than WW, who in my opinion actually made this whole thing worse, and I do believe he will listen to some of the reps with the help of this outside company and an agreement will be made, and it will, I think, be a good agreement for BA and not so good for Bassa but one that they can take to their membership and spin as a success!
That's my opinion and also my hope!
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Litebulbs
Ok, you have said that you want this dispute settled. How do you want it settled?
And there lies the million dollar question!
I've thought and thought about this and I'm still not sure what the answer is. Contrary to certain opinions and like Juan Tugho, I do not want to see individual union members punished. I have no problem with staff travel being returned in full or with arbitration for those that have been suspended or dismissed. But I do think BA need to call a halt to this sooner rather that later and I do think the Union officials need to be taken to task. As has already been said, their behaviour has been immature at best and downright vile at worst. They have been caught out telling half truths and outright lies. Surely they must have a legal responsibility to represent and guide their members with honesty and integrity.
But back to the subject in hand, the 28 day extension has been given. I disagree with that but that's neither here nor there. It is happening. I think BA need to make it very clear that this really is the last chance saloon. If no agreement is reached, or if an agreement is reached but the BASSA or Amicus leadership refuse to sanction it, then they follow the apparent wishes of their membership and they set the dates and strike. Any attempt to fudge issues with further ballots should be legally challenged immediately. No questions, no explanations.
If, on the other hand, agreement is reached and accepted by all parties, then all is good and well but to stop this never ending cycle, I think that a thorough outside investigation needs to take place into some of the questionable union rules and the antics of various union officials during this dispute. The results need to be completely transparent and available for all to see and if necessary, sanctions taken. At the very least, I feel the union have failed in their duty to look after their members interests by failing to provide them with all the information needed to make a fully informed decision. If all that happens, then possibly a good solid union can grow from this mess. If not, same time, same place next year....?
(Apologies for rambling. I'm still eagerly awaiting the computer that can read my mind and turn what's rattling around in my brain into something resembling sense when viewed in the written form!)
Last edited by jetset lady; 15th Apr 2011 at 20:21.
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I think we may be a little hasty assuming that the talks will lead to an agreement because we've been here before. Let's not forget that Len, like Tony, can talk to KW for as long as they can be bothered, shake hands on a deal, announce they've reached agreement and then find that BASSA refuse to accept it. I really can't see an agreement coming which does not allow the BASSA reps to save face. This is more than just the 10 items, this is about saving face and BASSA need some serious conciliatory gesture from BA to walk away from this with their heads held high. Will they get it?
BG - I thoroughly agree that most of the crew community want to see an end to this but not at any price. Sadly I think that the lives of the non-striking CC on WW will be very much the worse for BASSA securing any sort of concession. The constant rhetoric of "you're happy to benefit from our sacrifice" will be ongoing for years! Could be a bad place to be.
BG - I thoroughly agree that most of the crew community want to see an end to this but not at any price. Sadly I think that the lives of the non-striking CC on WW will be very much the worse for BASSA securing any sort of concession. The constant rhetoric of "you're happy to benefit from our sacrifice" will be ongoing for years! Could be a bad place to be.
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Betty girl wrote:
KW is dealing with the situation differently because he is reaping the benefits of WW's actions. WW stood up to Unite, which no BA CEO had done. And WW implemented the contingency plan which, with lots of people working (including cabin crew of course) kept BA flying. Unite is being conciliatory because further strike action will not advance their cause. In such a situation, it's easy for KW to be conciliatory in return!
I think he will deal with all of this in a much better way than WW, who in my opinion actually made this whole thing worse
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I totally agree with your posts Jetset Lady and Caribbean Boy
I, too, am not heartened by BA's decision to allow an extension but also feel that they will know what they are doing. As JT has stated, it is not the case of being 'anti-union' BUT, Bassa has no way demonstrated intelligent, member focussed leadership.
So, unless Bassa are brought into line - and be SEEN to have been, by their own members, then notwithstanding the comments that there will be a new company/union relationship, we are going to have an uneasy, ongoing 'dispute' at work- certainly in the near future. Many union supporters are utterly incapable of comprehending the reality of the situation and certainly cannot see beyond their own (misplaced, IMO) allegiance.
No, as a 'normal'(?), WW, crew-member, I sincerely hope that the union is not 'face-saved' - because it is likely that they would throw it back in our (BA and its supporters ) faces.
I really, really, hope the possible perfect check-mate by BA, is not scuppered at the final move.....
I, too, am not heartened by BA's decision to allow an extension but also feel that they will know what they are doing. As JT has stated, it is not the case of being 'anti-union' BUT, Bassa has no way demonstrated intelligent, member focussed leadership.
So, unless Bassa are brought into line - and be SEEN to have been, by their own members, then notwithstanding the comments that there will be a new company/union relationship, we are going to have an uneasy, ongoing 'dispute' at work- certainly in the near future. Many union supporters are utterly incapable of comprehending the reality of the situation and certainly cannot see beyond their own (misplaced, IMO) allegiance.
No, as a 'normal'(?), WW, crew-member, I sincerely hope that the union is not 'face-saved' - because it is likely that they would throw it back in our (BA and its supporters ) faces.
I really, really, hope the possible perfect check-mate by BA, is not scuppered at the final move.....
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Many union supporters are utterly incapable of comprehending the reality of the situation and certainly cannot see beyond their own (misplaced, IMO) allegiance.
Meanwhile back in reality BAs preparations continue. 100+ Mixed Fleet crew per month and a rolling VCC program
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Ottergirl,
I do agree with you but I believe Bassa will have it's wings clipped.
I think they will get staff travel back, and a new agreement over disciplinaries will be agreed and this will be their victory, rather hollow as in fact it just puts them back where they were before all this started. They will also maybe get another reworded agreement over assurances that will be very similar to what we already had. I would be shocked if Mixed Fleet does not stay, so I am sure it will and they might even get bargaining rights for them but those would be totally separate to ours.
Whatever happens these mindless people will call it a victory because they always do. When Amicus negotiated in the past, Bassa always took the credit, after causing all sorts of trouble for no good reason.
I do believe that their right to meddle in decisions about crewing and on-board service will be limited or removed all together.
I think BA are in the driving seat now and Bassa are on the back foot. Sort of cornered and will have no choice but to agree to changes. I hope.
Some will crow but the more intelligent ones will realise it was a total waste of their time and money, again, I hope.
As you say there will, forever, be bad feeling between those that striked and those that didn't whatever happens. If they win in their minds, they will crow and if they loose, in their minds, they will blame us.
But people like you and me, with independent thought, will always know that this whole strike was a total waste of time, whatever they say!
Lets all hope that this delay is a good sign. I am more optimistic now than I have been at any other time. I just hope it does get sorted because I am not sure how much more of this I can cope with. Unlike others, for people like you and me, this is not just a soap opera, we are stuck right in the middle of it!
I do agree with you but I believe Bassa will have it's wings clipped.
I think they will get staff travel back, and a new agreement over disciplinaries will be agreed and this will be their victory, rather hollow as in fact it just puts them back where they were before all this started. They will also maybe get another reworded agreement over assurances that will be very similar to what we already had. I would be shocked if Mixed Fleet does not stay, so I am sure it will and they might even get bargaining rights for them but those would be totally separate to ours.
Whatever happens these mindless people will call it a victory because they always do. When Amicus negotiated in the past, Bassa always took the credit, after causing all sorts of trouble for no good reason.
I do believe that their right to meddle in decisions about crewing and on-board service will be limited or removed all together.
I think BA are in the driving seat now and Bassa are on the back foot. Sort of cornered and will have no choice but to agree to changes. I hope.
Some will crow but the more intelligent ones will realise it was a total waste of their time and money, again, I hope.
As you say there will, forever, be bad feeling between those that striked and those that didn't whatever happens. If they win in their minds, they will crow and if they loose, in their minds, they will blame us.
But people like you and me, with independent thought, will always know that this whole strike was a total waste of time, whatever they say!
Lets all hope that this delay is a good sign. I am more optimistic now than I have been at any other time. I just hope it does get sorted because I am not sure how much more of this I can cope with. Unlike others, for people like you and me, this is not just a soap opera, we are stuck right in the middle of it!
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The problem is that they will blame us whatever the outcome.
BA can't actually get rid of Bassa because so many crew are still members, they have to negotiate with them! They really have no choice because Bassa have over 40% of the cabin crew community as members.
All that we can hope for is their wings clipped and the ability to move forward.
It won't get better than that, and if they don't get something to take back to their members it will just go on and on and on and on.............
BA can't actually get rid of Bassa because so many crew are still members, they have to negotiate with them! They really have no choice because Bassa have over 40% of the cabin crew community as members.
All that we can hope for is their wings clipped and the ability to move forward.
It won't get better than that, and if they don't get something to take back to their members it will just go on and on and on and on.............
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Right on cue....
...the mentalist in chief with his usual snide attitude. He'll never forgive BA or pilots for not being accepted at Hamble for pilot training. 
Anyone got any idea what "shake up their Brewmasters" means? Odd.
Duncan Holley
Trust me the pilots are twitching. Their "raison d'etre" has been exposed as a sham. They have been well and truly hoodwinked and the penny is dropping (and we all know how pilots hate dropping pennies)
If we came out with a 25% pay rise the FD would rubbish it, BALPA have been badly exposed as a toady union - their turn will come and they won't have our stomach for a fight.
They will be furious at this latest news that perhaps BASSA and BA can make peace and that should tell you all something. Back in 2007 they were tripping over themselves to sneer at the deal we got then - this time they will be frantic. Ignore them, they care only about themselves, always have always will - no wonder we used to shake up their Brewmasters!!!! (You gotta be old to understand that one).
I must admit one of the biggest shocks I have had in this dispute (and I have had a few) has been witnessing the back-stabbing actions of the pilot community. Truly I would never have believed it conceivable.
One great thing about being sacked and never stepping on a jet is I never have to mix or mingle with such low lifes ever again.
And apologies to the few good pilots out there - I know there are some but I am afraid the majority deserve nothing but contempt for their actions and that includes the silent ones who sat back and did nothing.
Trust me the pilots are twitching. Their "raison d'etre" has been exposed as a sham. They have been well and truly hoodwinked and the penny is dropping (and we all know how pilots hate dropping pennies)
If we came out with a 25% pay rise the FD would rubbish it, BALPA have been badly exposed as a toady union - their turn will come and they won't have our stomach for a fight.
They will be furious at this latest news that perhaps BASSA and BA can make peace and that should tell you all something. Back in 2007 they were tripping over themselves to sneer at the deal we got then - this time they will be frantic. Ignore them, they care only about themselves, always have always will - no wonder we used to shake up their Brewmasters!!!! (You gotta be old to understand that one).
I must admit one of the biggest shocks I have had in this dispute (and I have had a few) has been witnessing the back-stabbing actions of the pilot community. Truly I would never have believed it conceivable.
One great thing about being sacked and never stepping on a jet is I never have to mix or mingle with such low lifes ever again.
And apologies to the few good pilots out there - I know there are some but I am afraid the majority deserve nothing but contempt for their actions and that includes the silent ones who sat back and did nothing.
Anyone got any idea what "shake up their Brewmasters" means? Odd.
Twitching? What is the bloke smoking? 25% pay rise? Mad, utterly mad.
Nobody back-stabbed the militants - they did it all themselves. Stabbed themselves horribly, at least 200 times, using sheep shears. What a self-induced mess.
Thankfully, the lunatic has removed himself from the BA staff list and we don't have to see or mingle with him. What a relief! He is still hoodwinking the BASSA faithful, but that doesn't really matter - thats their problem.
I think he'll find that the contempt is reserved for him and his little cabal. Self-opinionated, filthy-mouthed, prancing pratt ..... and he has lost the battle spectacularly. Good riddance.
Nobody back-stabbed the militants - they did it all themselves. Stabbed themselves horribly, at least 200 times, using sheep shears. What a self-induced mess.
Thankfully, the lunatic has removed himself from the BA staff list and we don't have to see or mingle with him. What a relief! He is still hoodwinking the BASSA faithful, but that doesn't really matter - thats their problem.
I think he'll find that the contempt is reserved for him and his little cabal. Self-opinionated, filthy-mouthed, prancing pratt ..... and he has lost the battle spectacularly. Good riddance.