BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Can we leave the speculation on CAP371 to those who use it every day please?
I always understood CAP371 to be the document on which all UK airlines have to base their FTL "scheme".
That being the case most of us work to our own Company's rules which are based around CAP371, but which may differ to varying degrees.
Not sure why anyone in their "flying" role would use it everyday?
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Beagle9,
To let you know ours at LGW is seniority based.
EF LHR, MF LHR and SF LGW all have a version of the Carmen preferential bidding system, which is not based on seniority, but by allocating points indicating which trip type or destination you want most.
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oh-oh
You are right to correct my understanding. The Act flows to the SI and is then applied by the regulating body. The CAA FTL scheme will comply with the working time regulation, which satisfies the ANO.
If an AOC holder can convince the regulator that a different scheme complies with the The Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations 2004, then no doubt it will be approved.
If an AOC holder can convince the regulator that a different scheme complies with the The Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regulations 2004, then no doubt it will be approved.
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You have obviously never worked for a charter company where scheme was very relevant every time you went to work.
I was alluding to the fact that each airline has to use their own FTL scheme, not CAP371, which is the legal minimum, on which their "scheme" is based.....and yes we all use our "scheme" everday but in all my years of flying I have never even looked at CAP371!
Have you?
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Lightbulbs
This is now our worry - no wonder BA put a lay off clause in our contracts!
If we go over our limits and cant fly - they can lay us off with no pay
This is now our worry - no wonder BA put a lay off clause in our contracts!
If we go over our limits and cant fly - they can lay us off with no pay
I think you may be able to work on the ground if you reach the 900hr limit.
Have a check of your contract I did hear that was the case, I could be wrong but worth a look.
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Yellowdog,
Yesterday you said that LGW bid was preference bidding with a satisfaction factor in favor of seniority. You said that the system tried to achieve 80% satisfaction for senior crew and 40% for more junior. So it is still the same preference system but with different satisfaction levels. Ours is 60% across the board for E/F.
I don't think it is a system based on seniority like the pilots is. I would still consider it a preference system.
Yesterday you said that LGW bid was preference bidding with a satisfaction factor in favor of seniority. You said that the system tried to achieve 80% satisfaction for senior crew and 40% for more junior. So it is still the same preference system but with different satisfaction levels. Ours is 60% across the board for E/F.
I don't think it is a system based on seniority like the pilots is. I would still consider it a preference system.
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Perhaps OT
As an aside to all this, CAP371 is based on a lot of research into Fatigue in Aircrew which was initiated by the Bader Committee in the 70s. The resultant rules regarding local nights and maximum FDP etc are the result of that scientific study and subsequent experience.
The proposed changes that are likely to come into force as a result of the change of the regulatory body from the CAA to EASA are anything but based in scientific research. The bigger battle that we should all be engaged in should not be about 2 days off after a long haul trip but to prevent this nightmare piece of legislation from being allowed to proceed.
The proposed changes that are likely to come into force as a result of the change of the regulatory body from the CAA to EASA are anything but based in scientific research. The bigger battle that we should all be engaged in should not be about 2 days off after a long haul trip but to prevent this nightmare piece of legislation from being allowed to proceed.
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Yesterday you said that LGW bid was preference bidding with a satisfaction factor in favor of seniority. You said that the system tried to achieve 80% satisfaction for senior crew and 40% for more junior. So it is still the same preference system but with different satisfaction levels. Ours is 60% across the board for E/F.
I don't think it is a system based on seniority like the pilots is. I would still consider it a preference system.
I don't think it is a system based on seniority like the pilots is. I would still consider it a preference system.
It was sold to us as a fleet as a "seniority" based system, and all of us still think of it like that, and it still works like that (mostly). The more senior you are the more likely you are of achieveing your preferences.
I suppose it is a preference system, with a seniority filter!
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so your priority is to get enough of you together to approach Unite for your own NSP branch and start negotiating.
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Yellowdog,
I did find it interesting to know that you had different satisfaction levels at LGW. I don't think many of us at LHR new that. Thanks.
I am however pleased that at LHR it is the same for everyone, much fairer.
I would actually benefit from it if it were seniority led but I wouldn't feel it was fair on the more junior crew and as we are never going to get new crew again on E/F at LHR, they will be the most junior for ever!!!!
I did find it interesting to know that you had different satisfaction levels at LGW. I don't think many of us at LHR new that. Thanks.
I am however pleased that at LHR it is the same for everyone, much fairer.
I would actually benefit from it if it were seniority led but I wouldn't feel it was fair on the more junior crew and as we are never going to get new crew again on E/F at LHR, they will be the most junior for ever!!!!
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Stand corrected
Yellowdog
Thanks for that. I must admit after I posted that, I did have a nagging doubt about LGW Carmen, but I asked my ex EF LGW wife and she thought it wasn't seniority based. Hey ho!
Anyway, point still stands that the main thing standing in the way of Carmen bidding working for LHR WW is current allowance system, which makes the same trips popular for most people.
Thanks for that. I must admit after I posted that, I did have a nagging doubt about LGW Carmen, but I asked my ex EF LGW wife and she thought it wasn't seniority based. Hey ho!
Anyway, point still stands that the main thing standing in the way of Carmen bidding working for LHR WW is current allowance system, which makes the same trips popular for most people.
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CSMs
It's my understanding that BA has had difficulty in recruiting enough CSMs. Part of the problem may be the salary of about £26,500. (I can get the actual amount but I'd have to be back in the office to do so.)
I'm quite relaxed about this. If the pay is too low, then BA will have to raise it - it is a competitive market after all.
It should also be realised that BA really needs to meet recruitment targets. If MF is to grow, then there must a certain number of CSMs to manage the cabin crew. Let me pull some figures out of the air just for illustration. Say that MF has a target ratio of 1:10 for CSM:cabin crew. (It is not going to be 1:172 as we can have for existing fleets.) So, to recruit and manage 1,000 cabin crew means that 100 CSMs are required. A shortage of CSMs will therefore severely hinder the growth of MF.
As for under-employed EF CSDs: some may be suitable for the CSM position but none will apply because BA is not going to stump up an annual pay differential of £10,000-£30,000 to preserve their income.
I'm quite relaxed about this. If the pay is too low, then BA will have to raise it - it is a competitive market after all.
It should also be realised that BA really needs to meet recruitment targets. If MF is to grow, then there must a certain number of CSMs to manage the cabin crew. Let me pull some figures out of the air just for illustration. Say that MF has a target ratio of 1:10 for CSM:cabin crew. (It is not going to be 1:172 as we can have for existing fleets.) So, to recruit and manage 1,000 cabin crew means that 100 CSMs are required. A shortage of CSMs will therefore severely hinder the growth of MF.
As for under-employed EF CSDs: some may be suitable for the CSM position but none will apply because BA is not going to stump up an annual pay differential of £10,000-£30,000 to preserve their income.
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As to rates of pay, whatever happened to market rate +10%. Surely if the wages were actually in line with the statement, then existing crew would be applying in droves. Also, if you took the 10% off of the MF salary, you would be getting dangerously close to the glass floor of the minimum wage. Does that mean market rate is the minimum wage?
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You are right in what you say Carabean boy.
I believe the basic salary for Mixed Fleet CSM is 24K.
I think savings could have been made with an integrated approach because it seems mad to have CSDs (and for that matter Pursers) on E/F without work but being paid and then take on CSMs to do the same work that the CSDs could have done had new entrants been taken onto current fleets. However we have the Bassa union to blame for not negotiating on that.
Of course I do fully understand all the other reasons, new ethos, be outstanding etc etc, but I still question whether a low paid and tired workforce will, as time goes on, be all these things.
Time will tell.
If BA can't get as many CSMs as they want, as fast as they want, the result will be that some current crew will just have to wait longer before being offered the promised part time, that's all. Mixed fleet could just grow a bit slower and use it's own Future talent crews which would at least be good for them.
I believe the basic salary for Mixed Fleet CSM is 24K.
I think savings could have been made with an integrated approach because it seems mad to have CSDs (and for that matter Pursers) on E/F without work but being paid and then take on CSMs to do the same work that the CSDs could have done had new entrants been taken onto current fleets. However we have the Bassa union to blame for not negotiating on that.
Of course I do fully understand all the other reasons, new ethos, be outstanding etc etc, but I still question whether a low paid and tired workforce will, as time goes on, be all these things.
Time will tell.
If BA can't get as many CSMs as they want, as fast as they want, the result will be that some current crew will just have to wait longer before being offered the promised part time, that's all. Mixed fleet could just grow a bit slower and use it's own Future talent crews which would at least be good for them.
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Litebulbs,
If you are already earning market rate plus 50%+, why would market rate plus 10% look attractive? Even Bill Francis has said that he wouldn't envisage MF being attractive to many existing BA cabin crew. It only makes sense if you are very junior and are able to fast track yourself straight to CSM. That's exactly what's happened.
As for rumours of it being difficult to recruit from outside at the rates being offered? Who knows if it's true, but as a previous posted noted, if it's not possible to attract enough of the right people at the current rates and T&Cs, then they WILL improve. Simple economics of supply and demand. I think BA already knows this and they are just seeing if they can achieve what they want to achieve on the base level they started with (and expected to have been negociated up from, had there been representation).
If it's true they can't get enough people, you will see the salary go up. If it's rumour control doing it's usual, then you won't. Watch and wait.
If you are already earning market rate plus 50%+, why would market rate plus 10% look attractive? Even Bill Francis has said that he wouldn't envisage MF being attractive to many existing BA cabin crew. It only makes sense if you are very junior and are able to fast track yourself straight to CSM. That's exactly what's happened.
As for rumours of it being difficult to recruit from outside at the rates being offered? Who knows if it's true, but as a previous posted noted, if it's not possible to attract enough of the right people at the current rates and T&Cs, then they WILL improve. Simple economics of supply and demand. I think BA already knows this and they are just seeing if they can achieve what they want to achieve on the base level they started with (and expected to have been negociated up from, had there been representation).
If it's true they can't get enough people, you will see the salary go up. If it's rumour control doing it's usual, then you won't. Watch and wait.
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I didn't think the market rate +10% was aimed at existing crew, hence the alleged recruitment problems. In my opinion and viewed as an outsider, it appears that the current T&C's are just to see what could be got away with. Posters are already suggesting representation to help negotiating T&C's upwards.
However, if you look at Virgin Engineering who have recently voted to reject union recognition, employers can give reward that employees are happy with, outside of negotiation.
However, if you look at Virgin Engineering who have recently voted to reject union recognition, employers can give reward that employees are happy with, outside of negotiation.
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Excellent point Juan
The bigger battle that we should all be engaged in should not be about 2 days off after a long haul trip but to prevent this nightmare piece of legislation from being allowed to proceed
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That may be all well and good for the engineers but the cc and pilots most definitely think very differently. They're both about to enter into pay talks shortly. After having pay frozen for the last 3 years, it should be interesting to watch what happens there.