BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)

[Tiramisu]

I'm sorry Tiramisu, but if you had to point the group out, they can't have been that intimidating. Why point them out? Why not just ignore them? It seems to me that the two groups are actually feeding off each other and keeping the tension artificially high. Could it possibly be that BOTH sides are a little oversensitive at the moment and possibly seeing things that aren't there on some occasions?

jetset lady,
Far from it. Being over sensitive is something I'm not as I've had to develop a skin thicker than most having been on the receiving end of some pretty nasty stuff during this dispute. No one 'sees and looks' for things that are not there.
Most of us get on with job and serve our customers in the way we've always done, that is what we are there for at the end of the day and that is my priority.
In doing that you also have to motivate and inspire your crew to work with you to deliver excellent customer service.

However, if malicious untruths are being spread about you which turn the people you work with against you, than the job gets a little harder.

I'm not going into detail about bullying and harassment here, there have been endless examples and definition of what it entails. It was simply an observation on my part at the time and couldn't help pointing it out, that's all. As it happens, I did ignore them.
The attitude I have is now one of a zero tolerance to any childish juvenile behaviour from anyone regardless of who they are, whichever side of the fence they are.

Just to add that as an in charge crew member, I recognise excellence from anyone who exhibits such behaviour and performance, and have completed more 'bravos' in the last few months than I have for years.

[BlueUpGood]

When a previous TGWU/BASSA Branch Secretary was sacked a negotiation went on between BA and the TGWU Gen Sec. and a package of money and reinstatement of his staff travel was arranged allowing the dispute to be ended. is this what will happen again?

BA will never re-employ DH but it could pay him a wad of money and give him his retirement entitlements to ST and move on.

Not on this Chief Exec's watch, nor Keith Williams' either!

[HiFlyer14]

In simple terms which hopefully even the most entranched die hard union member will understand...having operated a flight this week with my crew being new fleet....without hesitation I can say that atmosphere/enthusiasm/professionalism of the whole new fleet crew was exemplary.

ALL highly experienced and motivated ex VS/BMI

A refreshing change and looking forward to BUD and the rest:

Flap80

The majority of cabin crew who post on this cabin crew thread are non-striking and hardworking. We have years of experience between us which I know includes EF, WW, MidFleet, Concorde, Recruitment & Selection, Training and VIP crew (with hats!) amongst other things. In addition, many of us are ex-nurses, ex-police, ex-ambulance service, ex-groundstaff, and other equally valid professions.

I would be interested to know what examples you can give then, on a shorthaul flight, to show that the "atmosphere/enthusiasm/professionalism" of Mixed Fleet differs to that that we give onboard to compel you to post that on here?

I would also like to say that I find it deeply concerning that it appears you have already segrated the two fleets by viewing it as "refreshing" (without giving any evidence of why) and are "looking forward" to your next flight with MF. If professional pilots, who I have the utmost respect for, start to "dread" the "legacy fleets" and "look forward" to the Mixed Fleet flights then we should all be very worried indeed about the state of CRM within our company.

What on earth has happened to us all?

[GS-Alpha]

If professional pilots, who I have the utmost respect for, start to "dread" the "legacy fleets" and "look forward" to the Mixed Fleet flights then we should all be very worried indeed

Then be worried.

[jetset lady]

We have years of experience between us which I know includes EF, WW, MidFleet, Concorde, Recruitment & Selection, Training and VIP crew (with hats!) amongst other things.

I guess LGW (with or without hats) comes under "amongst other things".

I would be interested to know what examples you can give then, on a shorthaul flight, to show that the "atmosphere/enthusiasm/professionalism" of Mixed Fleet differs to that that we give onboard to compel you to post that on here?

So is the atmosphere amongst "legacy" crew good? Or is it intimidating? You can't have it both ways.

[HiFlyer14]

JetsetLady

Perhaps I didn't make it clear that I was referring to fleets, not bases so certainly didn't mean to leave LGW out. I could have used the outdated terminology of longhaul and shorthaul but then that would show my age!

I don't recall that I have ever said anything about the atmosphere onboard being anything other than the usual professional high standard. In fact, if I haven't already said it, then I will say that since the strike standards have improved and everybody, striking or non, seems to have raised their game.

[essessdeedee]

I will say that since the strike standards have improved and everybody, striking or non, seems to have raised their game

Certainly not uniform standards from what is evident in the crc

btw you could have used SHAG - Short Haul At Gatwick

[PC767]

I know essessdeedee.

But I did read a piece in a recent flight ops news, (or whatever it is called), by the chief pilot, asking flight crew to at least try and meet basic standards. Ties, lanyards, bags and hats etc.

[ottergirl]

Juan Tripp

So here is the problem. There are many many Miss M's around and there is nothing it seems we can do to get rid of them. I personally have had enough. In the new year, I'm not messing about with these people any more. I have a good reputation ( apparently) so I'm not phased by these b******s ( sorry Mod) any more. The main crew that want to mess about with me with their yellow pens and crap will be no more. Don't get me wrong, I will do this properly and professionally. I have always trodden on egg shells when it comes to IFA's, worried about this and that, and when I have dealt with problems, have been sadly but understandably let down by some CC managers. But I feel the tide is turning and I for one will move up a gear or two.

I reached the same point as you a couple of weeks ago and I have not been messing around either. I have had a complaint about me already but I think that goes with the territory. To be fair, there haven't been too many times that I have needed to give any feedback and, in the last couple of days my crews have been outstanding both in terms of uniform and attitude. Yesterday I was looking at the Eurofleet standby crew who piled out of CRC to watch the McFly concert and had to admit they all looked pretty good - certainly McFly thought so! Lets manage the few bad apples so that they realise the only way forward is to raise their game!

One thing that is not helping is the Uniform stores refusal/inability to replace worn out items. It's much easier to look smart when you have a brand new uniform than once it is a few months old and is shiny and saggy. Telling a crew member that his shirt is grey and him saying that he's tried and can't get any replacements is most frustrating.

[Flap 80]

HI flyer 14
Yes very refreshing to fly with MF...positive..optimistic...professional. Of course the majority of the existing Eurofleet crew deserve similar epithets but the fact remains a significant number of disruptive individuals lurk amongst them which makes for challenging CRM and a less than ideal atmosphere on board and down route.
Anyone who has flown with MF crew on the PSA/LED/PRG sectors will say the same and will have driven home with renewed enthusiasm for the future.

I imagine the majority of MF crew joiners are highly experienced and to accept a job with lower remuneration than that which they left , to me , indicates a optimistic vision for their future promotion prospects and the success of MF.

Unless you have flown charter on a 230 seat A321/757 and seen the environment in which the CC work and demands upon them ...it is very easy to see why they relish the Airbus/777 mixed flying and have joined BA.

[Sporran]

Hi Flyer 14,

I have not had the pleasure of flying with the new MF crews yet - and am not rostered to fly with any at present. EVERYTHING that I have heard from flight crew colleagues has been positive about them.

The vast majority of EF crews are very good, lots are excellent, BUT ............. there is a sizeable number who are pretty awful. Like bad apples they spread their 'disease' amongst the good crews.

Pilots are NOT saying that existing EF crews are bad / not as good / less professional (delete as rqd) as MF crews, but whereas there are a significant minority on EF (and even more so on WW) who are pretty awful - the introduction of new people on MF means that there is none of the nasty poisonous element present.

I too have been much more 'up front' recently in my dealings with the more unsavoury elements in the cabin crew community.

I WILL NOT ALLOW THE NASTY MISERABLE MINORITY TO SPREAD POISON ON MY WATCH!!!!!!!

I believe strongly that those who care about the future of OUR airline also need to ensure that the nasty miserable minority are not allowed to spoil work and life for the hard-working on-side majority.

[shon7]

Same story at some outfits the other side of the pond. CC keep chanting, "i hate this place, i hate this place, we've been screwed, no one appreciates us wah wah wah."

Then ask them how long have you been here - 35 years (and those are the younger ones!)

I would love to see BASSA (or any other similar union) pool their resources and try to buy and run an airline. Would make for a great reality show!

[Flap 80]

Sporran

Well said and glad you identified with my comments and recognised that i am not criticising the solid majority of EF Members.It is highly refreshing to be able to leave T5 with optimism and a deep feeling that the day has been enjoyable.
Not saying that the EF days are all bad, far from it, but pleeeese how does one cultivale CRM as Hi flyer 14 suggests when EF do one out, standover, one back...eg ..LIS,ATH,HEL...etc, and maybe the perceived enthusiasm for MF is because they enthusiastically want to see places and not just complete the hotel check in process with the immortal words "see you at pick up"

[jetset lady]

btw you could have used SHAG - Short Haul At Gatwick

Hmm. I think I like it, essessdeedee! It's going to go perfectly with our new LGW union, the British Airways Gatwick Stewards/Stewardesses....

One thing that is not helping is the Uniform stores refusal/inability to replace worn out items. It's much easier to look smart when you have a brand new uniform than once it is a few months old and is shiny and saggy. Telling a crew member that his shirt is grey and him saying that he's tried and can't get any replacements is most frustrating.

That's actually a very valid point and is a major problem at both of the Uniform Stores and not just with replacement uniform. I had one crew member that had a uniform so big, she looked like she'd been in her Mum's dressing up box. When I asked her about it, she said that the lady in Uniform Stores insisted she have a uniform that size as flying makes you bloated. Not that much, it doesn't! (She was a size 8, the uniform was a size 14!) It was only when I stood the crew member in front of the managers, with her agreement, and insisted that they sent an email to the stores that she managed to get a uniform that fitted properly.

Yes, we do have issues with uniform standards, (although it doesn't help when BA's own brand new MH training video features a girl who's hair style breaks every rule in the book), but this is something that really needs sorting urgently, particularly as already mentioned, when it comes to replacement uniform. There's only so many times you can bleach a shirt before it falls apart. I'm starting to think the staff there work on some sort of reverse commision!

Finally, good to hear that others are also cracking down on behaviour too. Let's just hope that BA back us up on it, something that historically, they haven't always been very good at. The boast from a now ex crew member of three charges of gross misconduct bears that out!

[Caribbean Boy]

Amicus attacks BASSA

. LATEST NEWS UPDATES

[SlideBustle]

I would just like to add a few things.

First off good for those of you on here (especially SCCMs) who are saying they don't stand for any Bullying&Harassment. The atmosphere in the CRC and the tension from some crew can be VERY intimidating, as Tiramisu etc have said. It is very sad how it has come to this, really it is! Feelings and emotions are high, people from BOTH sides have very strong opinions - fair enough, but unfortunately some delight in creating an awful atmosphere. I hope we can repair this as a community soon! My feeling is, whatever happens with future strikes/no strikes/offers we get - is it will take a long time!

Secondly, I know there are some ex-temps and crew who are now on MF and I say good luck to you if you are starting and hope you are enjoying it if you have started. You do look smart in the CRC.

One thing though, is there are a mixture of strikers/no-strikers on here, however for ANYONE on Eurofleet/Worldwide (and I suppose LGW too but to alot of people they lump LGW in with MF!) it is not helpful to see comments from pilots who say they prefer MF - bring it on, they are much better than us, they are much better at their jobs etc etc.... We are ALL crew no! And I would like to think the majority of EF/WW crew are professional and do a good job - it is certainly my experience anyway. Yes, we have SOME crew who look scruffy, yes we have some crew who are complacent, and don't care but you will always get that!!! ALL airlines have that problem!

Also the tranfer of work from Mixed Fleet is a worry for most of us on current fleets. So I do find it rich that many people on here ''find it reasonable to want crew to work for only 2-3 years'' or ''£1100 a month is acceptable as other airlines pay it'' (my friends at some other airlines get more than Mixed Fleet and they are Main Crew!!) or our salaries are ''overinflated''. I'm sure you guys wouldn't like it if you had your job berated all the time and the wages you earn. So just a bit of respect is being asked from us EF/WW crew. Rather than being called overpaid and being treated as burdens as we want a career rather than a gap year job!

Hopefully the tension will lift soon. I am always professional as I always think most crew are, lest CRM be affected (although CRM is not all fluffy and being nice and hugging each other - BUT a barrier to good CRM is ineffective communication - hostile working relationships, bullying and harassment does restrict free communication somewhat)

[Dingbaticus]

I believe all would like tensions lifted.

Unfortunately the involvement of other departments has made that harder to achieve.

I am very mindful this is a very public forum but I would say that achieveing reconciliation requires BOTH sides working to build bridges.

Until a settlement is achieved, I don't feel I can be successful in my attempts to heal the rifts.

I hear tales of some who chose to work displaying luggage tags with four ticks in diamante - they want a badge of 'honour' too!

The madness has to end!

I am with Ottergirl and Jetty Betty on uniform standards but I am terrified of enforcing them, as I personally feel I could face b&h charges - instead of being empowered to manage, I feel vulnerable to false accusations.

We all know how important CRM is, it is time to reclaim it.

[moo]

amicus vs bassa

Attempts to lay blame at the doors of other departments for the failings of a totally dysfunctional 'union' is quite frankly laughable.

From the uniteba website:

17th November 2010 - AMICUS UPDATE - The Facts



The AMICUS/CC89 Committee would like you to be aware a few supportable and provable facts in the face of smooth talk and diversionary personal slights.



1. The BASSA Branch Chair was not present at yesterday’s meeting, or the last 3 negotiating committee meetings.



2. The AMICUS/CC89 senior reps were denied access to the meeting yesterday on the instruction of the BASSA Branch Secretary. If they attended – he would not attend.



3. The reaction you have witnessed to the AMICUS/CC89 article of 16th November 2010 is a direct result of the BASSA Committees nervousness about support (on their own forum) for AMICUS/CC89 and our views, supported by the majority of their membership. We put this down to human nature – but you still deserve the truth.



4. ALL AMICUS/CC89 reps have been barred from the BASSA Forum and committee emails.



5. The BASSA branch secretary has now twice ejected CC89 from the committee. The last time was yesterday, as a result of our article of 15th November 2010 – when apparently, without debate, his own blog was the FINAL position of us all. Democracy? What’s your view?



6. The BASSA branch committee ALL wished to accept the BA deal offered on 15th October, bar a handful of the newest reps who had to lecture the committee about their “principles” at a recent All Reps meeting in London.



7. Remember, these points are all supportable – many in print.



8. The BASSA Branch Committee allowed Unite to control and write their members communication on the subject of the offer. The review the offer itself content and the litigation review was controlled by Unite – the people who wanted us to recommend it. This was a watered down version of the truth – and you deserve more. We disagreed with their approach. You deserve the TRUTH together with clear indication as to the impact those items would have on your present and future career.



9. The BASSA Branch Committee wanted to continue with the recommendation of the offer – until we published our withdrawal and rejected the offer – and you responded with your approval of that position. Their hand was forced and they had to respond by following suit.



10. It was at this point AMICUS/CC89 published their 3 main articles (starting with the Formal Rejection on 3rd November . FRONT PAGE HOME PAGE ) but maintained a face of joint harmony between the committees within those articles, even though we had been `ousted’ and castigated for our view. Whilst we are committed to telling you the TRUTH, we felt that the BASSA committee ought to be given some breathing space, cut some `slack’ since their track record should and might eventually make them see sense. Written communications between us confirm this. The very next BASSA statement piggy-backed the extent of that courtesy because they KNEW they would be criticised by you if they did not. Their member’s forum posts helped them `see sense’ – but the praise for AMICUS was clearly a little too much for the BASSA committee to stomach.



11. The BASSA Chair has now clearly stated online that the BASSA Committee “did not agree with” the view of the AMICUS/CC89 committee. We would like to suggest that you re-read the last 3 AMICUS/CC89 articles on this website so see exactly what it is that BASSA do not agree with. (. FRONT PAGE HOME PAGE)



12. The BASSA Committee DO NOT AGREE with the following statement (amongst all others since 3rd November 2010):



In order to restore the relationship [between the trade unions and BA] and for us all to recognise the merit of that intent, as we understand it, the issues that BA now need to resolve are very simple:



(i) return to the collectively agreed crewing levels (BA has spent far more on this dispute than removing crew was ever going to save);



(ii) acknowledgement that collective agreements will not be broken by BA and will only be varied by further negotiation and collective agreement;



(iii) reinstatement of all lost staff travel benefits to strikers (including accrued seniority/status tickets etc);



(iv) no victimisation (including full reinstatement of all those dismissed, and restoration to their former positions of all those otherwise penalised in this dispute – (the foregoing are now identified in the current offer documentation as “relevant employees” and “processed employees”);



(v) in view of how the dispute came about and how negotiations since have been conducted, a recognition that the AMICUS/BASSA are the elected representatives of the cabin crew with whom all future negotiations will be conducted (save where existing collective agreements or AMICUS/BASSA otherwise expressly agree in advance).



13. AMICUS/CC89 have been offered a merger with the BASSA committee. We do not feel it is the right time for this to be considered, since we do not believe that the views of the BASSA committee are entirely representative of the whole joint membership. This has become clear in the last 3-4 weeks.



14. Any rep who sought to join BASSA did so under the impression that they would need 2 years membership in order to be considered a rep if there was to be a merger in the future.



15. We have been told by Unite, in no uncertain terms, that any rep who thinks we can address the matter of imposition now is on “a different planet”.



16. A member of the AMICUS/CC89 Committee has been told directly by Lenny McCluskey and the BASSA Branch Secretary to `wind his neck in’.



17. The BASSA position, as of yesterday – in the meeting with the JGS Tony Woodley was that the 4 points outlined in the BASSA Branch Secretary’s email were indeed the only 4 points required to end this dispute. The BASSA forum posts have provided a wishful get out clause, when hoping for the best i.e. that they were only just a starting point. Read the blog again. This is/was not the case.



18. Sometimes, it is human nature for individuals to think their past experience in different circumstances and different times is faultless and above reproach. We all admit that BA is a different animal these days and one which nobody from the TU side has ever experienced before. It is not important to be right, or to know best. It’s important to do the right thing for the membership and listen to their voice. According to the forum posts, we did this.



19. It is very easy to dismiss ones short comings by turning the issue in to a `personal attack’ as the BASSA Branch Chair has done today, rather than focusing on the actual issues. AMICUS refuse to make any of this personal. We will simply give you supportable facts and truth – and sometimes, that is uncomfortable to hear.



20. TW did indeed call an AMICUS/CC89 rep a “terrorist” and this was not challenged by any member of the BASSA Committee.



21. AMICUS/CC89 have requested an IA ballot to commence and whilst this is underway, talks can recommence to address all of the points in (12) above. This was denied. AMICUS/CC89 requested a time limit for the intended `return to talks’. None was given.



22. All costs of this dispute are carried by Unite.



23. AMICUS/CC89 will live through and weather any opportunistic personal attacks designed to undermine us and our position – but it will not change unless you wish it. The BASSA Branch Committee had lost touch with your views; do not want AMICUS/CC89 to be the ones who haven’t, and now for them, it’s become personal. Fibs, or half-truths have short legs.

We implore the BASSA Committee to lay down their swords against us, listen to the members, stop the personal and diversionary slights and get down to business - together.



24. AMICUS/CC89 will continue to tell the TRUTH no matter what is thrown at us. YOU deserve it, WE deserve it, and the BASSA Branch Committee deserves it.



25. This is no trivial storm in a tea cup – it is an indication of who or what is leading the BASSA Branch Committee. We sincerely hope they humble themselves and see the error of their ways, for all of our sakes.

[Hand Solo]

What an interesting response from Amicus. Frankly I don't know what to make of it! I was told the BASSA Chair launched a fairly personal attack on the Amicus reps today, essentially accusing them of not being committed because none of their reps had been sacked. Perhaps in her view refusing to turn up for work or attempting to redirect BAs web traffic towards hard core gay porn are the true measures of commitment? On the other hand, according to Amicus, BASSA were willing to accept BAs offer, the CC89 militants (what a peculiar concept!) wouldn't accede, and DH told them to wind their necks in! What a volte face! I truly pity our crew now, with this shambles of a union what hope do they have?

[Juan Tugoh]

Slidebustle

I have a great respect for our CC, whether they are legacy crew or LGW or MF, they are all my colleagues and it is usually a joy to work with them. However, if you take the time to read the passenger forums one thing that has been a repeated moan has been the variability of the service given. As MF has only just started, it is essentially legacy crew that have provided this variable service. So what are they moaning about? Sullen crew, crew that seem to find serving passengers a pain or they rush the service and then become invisible - either rushing to the bunks or hiding in the galleys. That said they also laud the excellent service they get, they praise the crew where they have gone above and beyond.

The point is that while many crew are excellent and work very hard and are a shining example of the best of BA. Sadly many are the opposite and this ranges from main crew all the way up to CSDs. Interestingly I suspect that those who post on here and other none union forums are in the engaged, exemplary group purely on the basis that they care enough to defend BA and their "weaker" colleagues. Stating that "Yes, we have SOME crew who look scruffy, yes we have some crew who are complacent, and don't care but you will always get that!!! ALL airlines have that problem!" is simply an admission of defeat.

Having worked in 3 other airlines before BA I can also tell you that not ALL airlines have the same problems that BA do. The reason is quite simple; BA have for years created an environment where crew come to BA and settle for life - once in the salary and T&Cs soon prevent people from going anywhere else. I flew with a girl that had trained as a teacher, less than 18 months out of college she was earning more as EF maincrew that her friends that had gone on to teach. She was, incidently, excellent. However, those that for any reason become disaffected cannot leave because they have neither the skills nor the gumption to get another job where they can earn as much and have such an easy life.

The problem that BA has faced for years is this variability of service and unless the crew themselves deal with this issue then it will not ever be dealt with. It is heartening to see CSDs stating that they have had enough and were getting tough on yellow pens, uniform standards etc but will these same CSDs still allow (insist) bunk rest on a daylight JFK? or will they insist that the crew have their legal break and then are back on duty, visible in the cabin, perhaps doing a juice and water round? Will their IFAs genuinely reflect that someone was lazy and sullen and risk potential dislike or will they gloss over the issues for the sake of CRM in its most hideously distorted image?

As I said at the start, most of the crew are good, but there is a significant number of crew that are lazy, sullen and view passengers as a damn nuisance. The entitled attitude of "I don't work down the back," has to stop, just because seniority allows you to always work in F does not mean you are better than the public that can only afford Traveller seats. Those are that attitudes that need stamping out.

At the moment MF is bringing different attitudes and work ethics to our customers, uncorrupted by the sullen and workshy. That is why some pilots look forward to working with them - that and novelty. Novelty will wear off but if the same attitude still prevails in a year, then it will be legacy crew that have failed to "up their game", the ball is in your court.


For those crew at LGW, I apologise if this is LHR centric, I seldom fly from LGW and not since the introduction of SFLGW. I cannot comment either way about the service and attitudes there, except that I hear good things about LGW from my friends flying on business.