BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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British Airways are kind enough to actually tell us our DUTY HOURS on our rosters.
As an example on my latest roster I did a two day, six sector trip.
I reported at 10.30 Local on Tuesday, did three sectors and then night stoped in a hotel, doing a further three sectors and then cleared at 20.15 local on Wednesday.
The total time I was away was 33 hours and 45 mins.
The duty hours I did, as worked out by BA were 20 hours 45 mins.
The time that was not included in the duty hours was the time I was effectively in the hotel.
It is these duty hours, that we can do a maximum of 2000 a year. Flying hours are 900. The hours that M/F can earn the 2.40 on is far more than 2500. It is for any hours working and dose include the time in a hotel.
Having said all that, on some days they may only be doing a quick there and back so might only get 8 hours of hourly pay but on other trips they may be away for a few nights.
As an example on my latest roster I did a two day, six sector trip.
I reported at 10.30 Local on Tuesday, did three sectors and then night stoped in a hotel, doing a further three sectors and then cleared at 20.15 local on Wednesday.
The total time I was away was 33 hours and 45 mins.
The duty hours I did, as worked out by BA were 20 hours 45 mins.
The time that was not included in the duty hours was the time I was effectively in the hotel.
It is these duty hours, that we can do a maximum of 2000 a year. Flying hours are 900. The hours that M/F can earn the 2.40 on is far more than 2500. It is for any hours working and dose include the time in a hotel.
Having said all that, on some days they may only be doing a quick there and back so might only get 8 hours of hourly pay but on other trips they may be away for a few nights.
Last edited by Betty girl; 15th Nov 2010 at 21:29. Reason: changed to 2000 because as cough says below that is the correct number.
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This 2500 duty hours are a red herring. It is illegal according to the European Working Time Directive to work more than 2000 duty hours per year.
Please see ere
Please see ere
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Colonel White:
ottergirl
essessdeedee
I think the Colonel is talking, not about IFA's (inflight assessments) which by the way are to be completed every 90 days not 120 as BASSA claim (another instance of BA being unable to run their own business) but more about the performance management that should be happening on a continuous basis whilst you are at work including downroute.
Historically SCCMs, both CSDs and Pursers, have been poor at this preferring to 'overlook' even the most basic issues such as missing name badges etc. Indeed, extend this inability/unwillingness to manage such trivia to other areas e.g. standards of product delivery and customer service then you will not be far off understanding why BA is so inconsistent.
It is also one of the reasons Messrs Talling-Smith and Hassell decided to remove the upperdeck Purser whilst at the same time orchestrate the removal of another at some point in the future. They didn't believe the Purser role contributed anything onboard and that is why MF only has one supervisory grade.
Interestingly, the CM has performance related pay in this regard and will have to demonstrate an ability to manage their crew and follow up any performance isssues through the Crew Management System, not just complete an assessment form every 30 days.
On MF this will help to ensure that the non-performers are managed out of the company. As the Colonel's post implies, the sooner current SCCMs have to do the job they are paid to do and are themselves managed accordingly, the better.
I suspect that the winnowing of older contract crew will occur when BA start instituting performance management across the board. It is worth noting that large parts of the airline have been operating this for some time and it is one of the features of MF. It can only be a matter of time before it is rolled out across all of IFCE. I'm sure there will be those who will wish to resist it. They'll probably be the ones with most to lose. Anyone who is at the very least pulling their weight has nothing to fear from it. The backsliders and teflon shouldered ones (and they occur in all organisations) will need to shape up or ship out.
The on-board performance is assessed by the SCCM every 120 days and, while I accept that the standard of the assessment varies from person to person, I suspect that the same will apply to MF. It seems that you have been misinformed on our Performance Management process.
Every 30 days on Mixed fleet. plus an annual review for every crewmember
Historically SCCMs, both CSDs and Pursers, have been poor at this preferring to 'overlook' even the most basic issues such as missing name badges etc. Indeed, extend this inability/unwillingness to manage such trivia to other areas e.g. standards of product delivery and customer service then you will not be far off understanding why BA is so inconsistent.
It is also one of the reasons Messrs Talling-Smith and Hassell decided to remove the upperdeck Purser whilst at the same time orchestrate the removal of another at some point in the future. They didn't believe the Purser role contributed anything onboard and that is why MF only has one supervisory grade.
Interestingly, the CM has performance related pay in this regard and will have to demonstrate an ability to manage their crew and follow up any performance isssues through the Crew Management System, not just complete an assessment form every 30 days.
On MF this will help to ensure that the non-performers are managed out of the company. As the Colonel's post implies, the sooner current SCCMs have to do the job they are paid to do and are themselves managed accordingly, the better.
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Historically SCCMs, both CSDs and Pursers, have been poor at this preferring to 'overlook' even the most basic issues such as missing name badges etc. Indeed, extend this inability/unwillingness to manage such trivia to other areas e.g. standards of product delivery and customer service then you will not be far off understanding why BA is so inconsistent.
To be fair, I do also ask if the SCCM feels that they get the required support from the company if they feel a crew member is under-performing, and seemingly, most of them feel that they don't.
I take my IFAs seriously, but often feel that they are rendered useless by the "I'm really sorry, but I HAVE to say something negative" attitude of (I'm very sorry to say) most SCCMs. Where is the backbone, the leadership, the inspiration? If I'm doing something well, tell me. If I'm underperforming, tell me. But please, whatever the case, just tell me HONESTLY, record it on the IFA, and let it be dealt with.
To be honest, Performance Management as it currently seems to exist, just leaves me feeling that I'm in a vacuum, isolated from reality. The system seems to serve no purpose (with a few noteable exceptions) other than box ticking (ie: CSDs/PSRs need to complete X number of IFAs per month).
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Latest from uniteba.com
15th november 2010 - AMICUS UPDATE - Unite Meeting 16 Nov
A select group of senior reps from the joint negotiating committee will be meeting with Tony Woodley and Co tomorrow to discuss the way forwards.
It is clearly unacceptable for the same offer documentation to be rehashed and re-presented for acceptance, or rejection once again. As we have said in earlier updates, for a successful resolution to this dispute, the company would need to recommence discussions with the local representatives from both AMICUS and BASSA with headline items from both sides featuring equally and settled by mutual consent.
Definition: Negotiation - mutual discussion and arrangement of the terms of a transaction or agreement.
In view of the recent impositions which fly in the face of agreed and required negotiation principles, the company would need to now clearly demonstrate their genuine willingness to be “committed to beginning the process of restoring and improving relationships at all levels” as contained in their latest offer, under Working Together.
In order to restore the relationship and for us all to recognise the merit of that intent, as we understand it, the issues that BA now need to resolve are very simple:
A select group of senior reps from the joint negotiating committee will be meeting with Tony Woodley and Co tomorrow to discuss the way forwards.
It is clearly unacceptable for the same offer documentation to be rehashed and re-presented for acceptance, or rejection once again. As we have said in earlier updates, for a successful resolution to this dispute, the company would need to recommence discussions with the local representatives from both AMICUS and BASSA with headline items from both sides featuring equally and settled by mutual consent.
Definition: Negotiation - mutual discussion and arrangement of the terms of a transaction or agreement.
In view of the recent impositions which fly in the face of agreed and required negotiation principles, the company would need to now clearly demonstrate their genuine willingness to be “committed to beginning the process of restoring and improving relationships at all levels” as contained in their latest offer, under Working Together.
In order to restore the relationship and for us all to recognise the merit of that intent, as we understand it, the issues that BA now need to resolve are very simple:
(i) return to the collectively agreed crewing levels (BA has spent far more on this dispute than removing crew was ever going to save);
(ii) acknowledgement that collective agreements will not be broken by BA and will only be varied by further negotiation and collective agreement;
(iii) reinstatement of all lost staff travel benefits to strikers (including accrued seniority/status tickets etc);
(iv) no victimisation (including full reinstatement of all those dismissed, and restoration to their former positions of all those otherwise penalised in this dispute – (the foregoing are now identified in the current offer documentation as “relevant employees” and “processed employees”);
(v) in view of how the dispute came about and how negotiations since have been conducted, a recognition that the AMICUS/BASSA are the elected representatives of the cabin crew with whom all future negotiations will be conducted (save where existing collective agreements or AMICUS/BASSA otherwise expressly agree in advance).
I'm starting to lose the will to live!
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Re : Latest from UniteBA
Well, well, well. I thought that one elected reps on the basis that they were intelligent folk who one believed would be best able to represent the views of members t management. Yet here we have a bunch who clearly have taken off their thinking heads and replaced them with manky manglewurzels. This hapless bunch would lead the BASSA membership directly into a strike that would see them all sacked.
How on earth can they be so pig headed foolish ? Almost every single item in the list of demands is an exact copy of the rationale behind the previous dispute or has during the course of it been cited as a reason for its continuation.
Um... so you not only want the clock turned back but you also want those wicked management types at BA to go stand in the naughty corner until they are truly sorry and promise never to do it again...yeah right...
Gadzooks, wasn't this what was in the current offer ?? So why did you reject it ???
Duncan wants his job back and the right to rule - even though he and the other staff sacked were done for gross misconduct. BA should say sorry and of course let them back. Bullying and intimidation is fine if you are a union rep oh and the normal rules don't apply to them - they are 'special'.
This one really takes the biscuit. So the two branches are saying that BA should not deal with Unite and that Unite should have no further say in any negotiations regardng cabin crew. The sheer arrogance is breathtaking. I can see Unite turning round and saying 'Yeah baby, you're on you're own now' Unite would love to dispense with BASSA and CC89. This bunch of half baked fools have cost them millions over the past year- far more than they have contributed in membership dues. Unite have been the people who have steered them clear of making complete asses of themselves and walking into huge litigation costs. It has saved the collective bacon of the members by ensuring that at least a legitimate strike ballot was held. Without Unite, the strikers could well have been sacked on the spot. Meanwhile BA would probably dearly love to only have to deal with CC89 and BASSA. Within 6 months both branches would be bankrupt because of their stupidity.
I seriously wish all BASSA members the best of luck. With this witless, brainless ship of fools leading them they have at last earned my sympathy. Never in the field of human endeavour have so many been led so abysmally by so few. This really is the point at which the BASSA membership need to rid themselves of the current bunch and get some decent representation. There are only two sane alternatives, to vote against strike action or to hand in one's cards and would the last person please turn the lights out. BASSA and CC89 are now an irrelevance.
How on earth can they be so pig headed foolish ? Almost every single item in the list of demands is an exact copy of the rationale behind the previous dispute or has during the course of it been cited as a reason for its continuation.
(i) return to the collectively agreed crewing levels (BA has spent far more on this dispute than removing crew was ever going to save);
Let me get this clear. a high court and then an appeal court have both said that BA acted fairly. But BASSA want to turn the clock back.
BA made a profit because it had started to make inroads on its cost base, part of which is attributable to lower cabin crew manning levels, but BASSA want the clock turned back
Does BASSA also want these selfsame crewing levels imposed on LGW flights ? Sorry, I can't hear that response. It was a deafening silence
BA made a profit because it had started to make inroads on its cost base, part of which is attributable to lower cabin crew manning levels, but BASSA want the clock turned back
Does BASSA also want these selfsame crewing levels imposed on LGW flights ? Sorry, I can't hear that response. It was a deafening silence
(ii) acknowledgement that collective agreements will not be broken by BA and will only be varied by further negotiation and collective agreement;
Um... so you not only want the clock turned back but you also want those wicked management types at BA to go stand in the naughty corner until they are truly sorry and promise never to do it again...yeah right...
(iii) reinstatement of all lost staff travel benefits to strikers (including accrued seniority/status tickets etc);
Gadzooks, wasn't this what was in the current offer ?? So why did you reject it ???
iv) no victimisation (including full reinstatement of all those dismissed, and restoration to their former positions of all those otherwise penalised in this dispute – (the foregoing are now identified in the current offer documentation as “relevant employees” and “processed employees”);
Duncan wants his job back and the right to rule - even though he and the other staff sacked were done for gross misconduct. BA should say sorry and of course let them back. Bullying and intimidation is fine if you are a union rep oh and the normal rules don't apply to them - they are 'special'.
(v) in view of how the dispute came about and how negotiations since have been conducted, a recognition that the AMICUS/BASSA are the elected representatives of the cabin crew with whom all future negotiations will be conducted (save where existing collective agreements or AMICUS/BASSA otherwise expressly agree in advance).
This one really takes the biscuit. So the two branches are saying that BA should not deal with Unite and that Unite should have no further say in any negotiations regardng cabin crew. The sheer arrogance is breathtaking. I can see Unite turning round and saying 'Yeah baby, you're on you're own now' Unite would love to dispense with BASSA and CC89. This bunch of half baked fools have cost them millions over the past year- far more than they have contributed in membership dues. Unite have been the people who have steered them clear of making complete asses of themselves and walking into huge litigation costs. It has saved the collective bacon of the members by ensuring that at least a legitimate strike ballot was held. Without Unite, the strikers could well have been sacked on the spot. Meanwhile BA would probably dearly love to only have to deal with CC89 and BASSA. Within 6 months both branches would be bankrupt because of their stupidity.
I seriously wish all BASSA members the best of luck. With this witless, brainless ship of fools leading them they have at last earned my sympathy. Never in the field of human endeavour have so many been led so abysmally by so few. This really is the point at which the BASSA membership need to rid themselves of the current bunch and get some decent representation. There are only two sane alternatives, to vote against strike action or to hand in one's cards and would the last person please turn the lights out. BASSA and CC89 are now an irrelevance.
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(i) return to the collectively agreed crewing levels (BA has spent far more on this dispute than removing crew was ever going to save);
After all, before this debacle, they kept bleating on about the No 16 being removed as a temporary measure post 9-11 - so that's clearly what they think was collectively agreed - they claim never to have agreed to 15 on a jumbo as a permanent change.
Sheesh, this is getting hysterically funny.
I also like the bit about a "select group of senior reps" going to meet Woodley.
Anyone know exactly who they are?
GG
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As much as BASSA/AMICUS want to blame BA for intransigence it would seem that the only ones who really want to prolong this ridiculous dispute is BASSA/AMICUS themselves.
A return to the status quo was/is an never will be on the cards.
Interesting that they post a definition of negotiation, perhaps they should read it themselves.
A return to the status quo was/is an never will be on the cards.
Interesting that they post a definition of negotiation, perhaps they should read it themselves.
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What BASSA/AMICUS fail to understand (well, one of the many things they fail to understand) is that the rest of the BA employees who have understood the situation, have rationlised their working routines and pay and have moved with the times, will NOT allow the company to allow BASSA/AMICUS to return to the 'old' days.
Whilst the BASSA militants like to portray themselves as a 'majority' I think they would find themselves very quickly in a big minority if they try and push a return to the status quo on BA.
Personally I would support the company 110% in the fight against BASSA. I feel that the CC deserve and require good, intelligent and proactive representation. Sadly BASSA/AMICUS do not provide such a service.
BA will be in trouble if they cave in to such ridiculous demands and I am certain that they, as a company, are well aware of the depth of feeling within those employees who have supported the company throughout.
Whilst the BASSA militants like to portray themselves as a 'majority' I think they would find themselves very quickly in a big minority if they try and push a return to the status quo on BA.
Personally I would support the company 110% in the fight against BASSA. I feel that the CC deserve and require good, intelligent and proactive representation. Sadly BASSA/AMICUS do not provide such a service.
BA will be in trouble if they cave in to such ridiculous demands and I am certain that they, as a company, are well aware of the depth of feeling within those employees who have supported the company throughout.
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It may be that the dismissed have just looked at the law and seen that the only way they will now get their jobs back is if they are given them by the company.
Full details here:
Employment Tribunals
There are stringent time limits for bringing claims in employment tribunals. These vary dependent on the type of claim being brought. For some claims, the time limit is three months. Employment tribunals do have the power to extend these time limits but only exercise this power in exceptional circumstances.
Employment Tribunals
Even had they got the ET applications in on time I doubt it would have made any difference. ETs can't force re-instatement, only compensate if they feel the dismissal is unfair.
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ET's can make reinstatement orders which cannot be enforced, however if made will increase the compensation payment made when the employer does not honour the reinstatement order. The extra compensation ranges from a minimum of 26 weeks upto a maximum of 52 weeks pay.
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no victimisation (including full reinstatement of all those dismissed, and restoration to their former positions of all those otherwise penalised in this dispute – (the foregoing are now identified in the current offer documentation as “relevant employees” and “processed employees”);
Re-instate them to what? Constant off loads as they have demonstrated that they are not deemed suitable characters to continue to work in the role to which they have been employed.
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Wirbelsturm
I think that they understand very well. The problem is their 'Hidden Agendae," which are not disclosed to the masses.
cf: Epsilon
What BASSA/AMICUS fail to understand
cf: Epsilon
One who belongs to the lowest caste in Aldous Huxley's book Brave New World. Known for inferior intelligence, yet indispensibility. After death, they play a crucial role. In short, a useful idiot.
Exactly what I wrote, they can't enforce re-instatement and I've never known them to make this order precisely because it's un-enforceable and bridges have been well and truly burnt by that point anyway.
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performance mangament of crew
TorC
I completley agree with you, I too take IFA's very seriously and often follow up with the crew members CCM. However, I have often been met with indifference or the CCM has not replied to my e-mails or voicemail so it can be extremely frustrating.
Many crew cannot or will not accept developmental feedback, whether it's regarding their behaviour or uniform standards. I've also been accussed of bullying and harassment by a crew member over a uniform issue.
It's very frustrating that there is at times too much inconsistancy within IFCE both on and off the aircraft, onboard it's usually because a few crew adopt the attitude of 'it's my way or else'
I completley agree with you, I too take IFA's very seriously and often follow up with the crew members CCM. However, I have often been met with indifference or the CCM has not replied to my e-mails or voicemail so it can be extremely frustrating.
Many crew cannot or will not accept developmental feedback, whether it's regarding their behaviour or uniform standards. I've also been accussed of bullying and harassment by a crew member over a uniform issue.
It's very frustrating that there is at times too much inconsistancy within IFCE both on and off the aircraft, onboard it's usually because a few crew adopt the attitude of 'it's my way or else'
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MF a shining example!!,,
It may be a shining example but not for the Cabin Crew who have to work on pretty awful salaries and a lousy contract. Fine if you are 21years and living at home. And please, do not say that accepting the job is their choice - it is not - MF are taking advantage of Cabin Crew. They will leave in their droves when other airlines start advertising and they have had their taste of flying... doen't sould llike good business to me.
And please, do not say that accepting the job is their choice - it is not