BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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OMG - I so wanted to be in a position to see how the fleet was before applying but with it being brand new had no choice and applied anyway.
One day off is going to be very interesting to say the least!! My estimate of 900 hours in 8 or 9 months can have a couple of months shaved off of that.
Maybe they just don't have enough crew online as are still training at the moment and as soon as more are out of training then the 2 days off as talked about can be more easily rostered?
One day off is going to be very interesting to say the least!! My estimate of 900 hours in 8 or 9 months can have a couple of months shaved off of that.
Maybe they just don't have enough crew online as are still training at the moment and as soon as more are out of training then the 2 days off as talked about can be more easily rostered?
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Are you still on your training course Bagsybtmbunk or just about to start.
I do hope, as you say, it gets better in the future. I hope you are right.
I think if you all get exhausted they would have to alter it because it would be just so tiring to do that on a regular basis.
Best wishes to you.
I do hope, as you say, it gets better in the future. I hope you are right.
I think if you all get exhausted they would have to alter it because it would be just so tiring to do that on a regular basis.
Best wishes to you.
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Hi Betty girl - I'm starting at end of month. Really looking forward to it. I've worked flights with one day off before during really busy periods and it is manageable. When the 2 off in 14 comes it feels like a weeks leave! Lol.
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BettyGirl
Just had a call with two friends from m y course in the same position - we all expected two days off after longhaul, seems like it is 2 local nights we are getting - we are all sure that BA promised 2 days - the meeting with scheduling seems like ages ago now though and cant remember the exact words they used, one friend really upset as she is from Yorkshire and wanted to commute
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Thanks for that both of you.
I really hope you both enjoy M/F and I hope the days off situation gets sorted or you will be dying on your feet.
I am sure that if you ALL find it too tiring they would have to alter it otherwise sickness levels would go up.
Anyway good luck and thanks for all your info.
I really hope you both enjoy M/F and I hope the days off situation gets sorted or you will be dying on your feet.
I am sure that if you ALL find it too tiring they would have to alter it otherwise sickness levels would go up.
Anyway good luck and thanks for all your info.
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I'm curious, you work a maximum 900 hours a year but feel it's too much, for an average working person that means about 3 hours a day based on a 5 day week, at worst. Why is that a tough working life?
Or am I missing something?
Or am I missing something?
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Yes, you are missing something Vortex, the 900 hours refers to block hours only, that is the time spent in the air and it does not include pre- and post-flight duties, turnaround duties, stanbys etc.
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I'm not particularly surprised that MF are being rostered one local night between trips at this stage. Anyone with any new start up experience in BA can reassure you that rostering is very variable while a fleet builds up to strength. There may be only one night off between trips now, but in some months time when the recruitment ramps up you may find yourself only working 6 days as the fleet is overstrength and hankering for the days when you had work and allowances. Unfortunately that is the reality of being the pioneers of a new fleet. There are naysayers, and I suspect BASSA plants, who will decry a single night off after long haul trips as dangerous and unhealthy. But lets remember that BA flight crew can fly these schedules safely, and in the long run BA can only fly crew 900 hours each year, and it makes no sense to flog all crew to within a few hours of their annual limit and let them sit at home on gardening leave for 3 months. Eventually it will smooth out and become a reasonable roster because reality dictates that the fantasy rosters an airline would wish for simply don't withstand real world restrictions, and the cost of getting it wrong outweighs the savings of working crew to the limits.
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Hi Yellow Pen,
I don't think anyone has said they are only getting one local night.
Some of them are saying that they are getting one day off (which is two local nights) after a long haul sector but they thought they were told it would be a minimum of two days off.
One local night would be no days off and I don't think BA would do that although of course WW cabin crew do do back to back trips (which have no days off in the middle) and I know that pilots can bid to do that also.
I don't think anyone has said they are only getting one local night.
Some of them are saying that they are getting one day off (which is two local nights) after a long haul sector but they thought they were told it would be a minimum of two days off.
One local night would be no days off and I don't think BA would do that although of course WW cabin crew do do back to back trips (which have no days off in the middle) and I know that pilots can bid to do that also.
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One local night would be no days off and I don't think BA would do that although of course WW cabin crew do do back to back trips (which have no days off in the middle) and I know that pilots can bid to do that also.
Most American airlines have bidline for cabin crew. The systems are there and could easily be imported into BA for new cabin crew.
This would mean that MF crew would be better able to tailor their roster regarding days off and an individual choice of the mix of long/shorthaul.
I know that it is often said that bidline is expensive to run. If that is the case why do all american airlines have the system for pilots and cabin crew?
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Cabin crew at BA have, in the past, had plenty of opportunity to have some form of bidding. A system of bidding is more costly to run and it would have to have been "bought", ie they would have to have given something up in order to allow the funding to be available to run the bidding system.
BASSA have never been willing to give anything up, even it would have to the benefit of their members. For a bidding system to work it also has to be transparent with all bids and awards available to be scrutinised and challenged - with the corruption involved in current CC rostering, there are many that would lose out and they have always been vocally opposed to bidding.
The Bidline System used by the pilots works on seniority, it is also reliant on many seniority sub-groups and needs "churn" or movement up through the seniority ladder. In times of stagnation, such as now, the whole system comes under pressure. Those at the bottom seeing no improvement in their lot, while those at the top sit there with their snouts in the trough getting everything they want. Within the CC community there too few seniority sub-groups and "churn" is too low. Furthermore a bidding system assumes that promotion is also based on seniority, which is not appropriate in the CC community.
So if a seniority based bidding system is not appropriate then a "satisfaction" based system is really the only remaining option. A system such as Carmen, which is employed at LGW.
Most CC have gained their understanding of bidding from their pilot colleagues, it is a Bidline system that they are talking about. With a system of this type crew would have to accept responsibility for their own MBTs - the system will allow minimum legal turn rounds, so it is quite possible to back to back an IAD trip with a BKK-SYD trip. Bidline has many traps and pitfalls, indeed the BALPA forum has a section dealing with the problems that arise from Bidline and the personal problems it can cause.
Bidding is brilliant but it does come at a cost both to the company and to the individual. What price is the CC community willing to pay to buy bidding?
BASSA have never been willing to give anything up, even it would have to the benefit of their members. For a bidding system to work it also has to be transparent with all bids and awards available to be scrutinised and challenged - with the corruption involved in current CC rostering, there are many that would lose out and they have always been vocally opposed to bidding.
The Bidline System used by the pilots works on seniority, it is also reliant on many seniority sub-groups and needs "churn" or movement up through the seniority ladder. In times of stagnation, such as now, the whole system comes under pressure. Those at the bottom seeing no improvement in their lot, while those at the top sit there with their snouts in the trough getting everything they want. Within the CC community there too few seniority sub-groups and "churn" is too low. Furthermore a bidding system assumes that promotion is also based on seniority, which is not appropriate in the CC community.
So if a seniority based bidding system is not appropriate then a "satisfaction" based system is really the only remaining option. A system such as Carmen, which is employed at LGW.
Most CC have gained their understanding of bidding from their pilot colleagues, it is a Bidline system that they are talking about. With a system of this type crew would have to accept responsibility for their own MBTs - the system will allow minimum legal turn rounds, so it is quite possible to back to back an IAD trip with a BKK-SYD trip. Bidline has many traps and pitfalls, indeed the BALPA forum has a section dealing with the problems that arise from Bidline and the personal problems it can cause.
Bidding is brilliant but it does come at a cost both to the company and to the individual. What price is the CC community willing to pay to buy bidding?
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As on E/F and LGW, Mixed Fleet do have a bidding system.
It allows you to show the system your preferences but does not show detailed lines of work like the pilot bid does.
It is not seniority led but works on a system that tries to give everyone at least a 60% satisfaction rate. You can put in a bid showing preferred days off, trip types and destinations. The more general your bid is the more successful you are, giving the computer more choice etc.
I think years ago cabin crew did try and get a bid system for WW cabin crew, along the lines of the bid line system used by a lot of American carriers and our pilots but the company said it was too expensive. There is a possibility of some kind of bid like E/F, LGW and Mixed Fleet have but I think it required the current system of MBT's(that WW cabin crew have) to be scrapped and apparently, according to the company, the union said NO without even asking the WW cabin crew what they thought.
No change there then!
The current bid that we have on all fleets except WW is a very general bid system, it would be hard to bid for trips and be specific about having two days off after. It works really well on E/F but I think it might be more tricky to use on Mixed Fleet or that seems to be the case due to the mix of long haul and short haul work.
Does anyone at LGW know if your bid is different to Mixed Fleet. Can you bid for only one day off after long haul work or does the system automatically give you at least two days.
It might be that Mixed Fleet crew are just not used to bidding and that might be why some have ended up with one day off after a long haul flight. I have heard that one Mixed Fleet crew member has got 4 long haul flights in a row on her roster for December and the first 3 have only got one day off after each. I don't think anyone would think that was going to be an easy roster to work. Good luck to her!
It allows you to show the system your preferences but does not show detailed lines of work like the pilot bid does.
It is not seniority led but works on a system that tries to give everyone at least a 60% satisfaction rate. You can put in a bid showing preferred days off, trip types and destinations. The more general your bid is the more successful you are, giving the computer more choice etc.
I think years ago cabin crew did try and get a bid system for WW cabin crew, along the lines of the bid line system used by a lot of American carriers and our pilots but the company said it was too expensive. There is a possibility of some kind of bid like E/F, LGW and Mixed Fleet have but I think it required the current system of MBT's(that WW cabin crew have) to be scrapped and apparently, according to the company, the union said NO without even asking the WW cabin crew what they thought.
No change there then!
The current bid that we have on all fleets except WW is a very general bid system, it would be hard to bid for trips and be specific about having two days off after. It works really well on E/F but I think it might be more tricky to use on Mixed Fleet or that seems to be the case due to the mix of long haul and short haul work.
Does anyone at LGW know if your bid is different to Mixed Fleet. Can you bid for only one day off after long haul work or does the system automatically give you at least two days.
It might be that Mixed Fleet crew are just not used to bidding and that might be why some have ended up with one day off after a long haul flight. I have heard that one Mixed Fleet crew member has got 4 long haul flights in a row on her roster for December and the first 3 have only got one day off after each. I don't think anyone would think that was going to be an easy roster to work. Good luck to her!
Last edited by Betty girl; 1st Dec 2010 at 09:15.
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The two long haul destinations that Mixed Fleet have for December are Denver and Las Vegas. Both flights go daily and are night-stops for the cabin crew and would therefore be three day trips.
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Also as well as the other problems detailed with bidline, the real cost to the company is all work is not guaranteed to be covered. If people all avoid certain trips or working during particular times of the month (ie bank holidays/weekends) BA has a big problem. This is what causes "drafting" of crew-which is enormously unpopular. Going to your best friends wedding next week? Not any more see you for a 3 day MIA!!!!
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Bidding
Does anyone at LGW know if your bid is different to Mixed Fleet. Can you bid for only one day off after long haul work or does the system automatically give you at least two days.
A minimum of two days off will be planned after a longhaul trip which will count towards
the monthly days off entitlement.
the monthly days off entitlement.
With reference to bidding system, CARMEN, ours at LGW does work on seniority as it tries to give the most senior person up to 80% satisfaction and the least senior 40%. We all know, however, that it doesn't work that well in reality as, although people are different, they tend to want very similar work....ie the trips that pay the most money, and not the hard there and backs which pay little and mean coming to and from work every day.
It is nice though to have some say over our lifes.......not quite sure how WWLHR cope with little or no control.
My estimate of 900 hours in 8 or 9 months can have a couple of months shaved off of that.
I seem to remember a few years ago a LGW when all the main crew were reaching their 900hr limit, chaos ensued as we didn't have emough crew to cover everything and the Company had to pay us loads of extra cash to operate with less than agreed crewing levels.
But there again I'm just a lowly Cabin Manager and mine is not to reason why...........
With reference to cabin crew bidding BASSA have always denied BA crew this. When the 767/Midfleet operated they went all out to rubbish it even though, for the most part, it worked well.
Before anyone pops up and disputes this the flaw was the Purser rank: Shorthaul 767- 1 Purser. Longhaul 767- 3 Pursers the Purser rank on Midfleet had a preference for SH and therefore didn't achieve satisfaction.
BASSA reps are true Luddites any thing new is to be opposed at any cost even if it is beneficial to crew.
Before anyone pops up and disputes this the flaw was the Purser rank: Shorthaul 767- 1 Purser. Longhaul 767- 3 Pursers the Purser rank on Midfleet had a preference for SH and therefore didn't achieve satisfaction.
BASSA reps are true Luddites any thing new is to be opposed at any cost even if it is beneficial to crew.
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It is the earning no money part that is interesting. Are we talking duty pay, or the whole package, with the short time working clause in the contract, as I understand it. Before I get rounded on by the usual suspects, it is just a question to anybody who has a better understanding of the contractual provision.
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Thanks for that Yellowdog.
It makes me wonder if they have made a mistake in scheduling with regard days off for Mixed Fleet after a long haul flight because loads of them are really upset by these trips with only one day off and are saying that they were told differently on their training course.
I was under the impression that they were working to the same scheduling agreement as you guys and if that were the case they should trigger two days off min after a long haul flight.
Anyway like you I am only a lowly bod but was just shocked at the single day off for them. Hope it gets sorted out anyway. Thanks.
It makes me wonder if they have made a mistake in scheduling with regard days off for Mixed Fleet after a long haul flight because loads of them are really upset by these trips with only one day off and are saying that they were told differently on their training course.
I was under the impression that they were working to the same scheduling agreement as you guys and if that were the case they should trigger two days off min after a long haul flight.
Anyway like you I am only a lowly bod but was just shocked at the single day off for them. Hope it gets sorted out anyway. Thanks.