BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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pcf
The guys name is Wirbelsturm. Its in front of you, if you can't spell it, copy and paste it.
Wirbelsturm is 11 keys to press, Wibble...something is 18 so it would have actually been quicker to spell it properly.
You may not agree with him, but petty disrespect of members user name is childish to say the least.
The guys name is Wirbelsturm. Its in front of you, if you can't spell it, copy and paste it.
Wirbelsturm is 11 keys to press, Wibble...something is 18 so it would have actually been quicker to spell it properly.
You may not agree with him, but petty disrespect of members user name is childish to say the least.
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The BASSA supporters speak a lot about being 'bullied'.
There are many subtle examples of bullying by posters on this thread.
To deliberately mis-spell someone's name is one. To suggest that non-cabin crew 'get a life' instead of discussing the subject is another.
Don't get me started on the forms of bullying exhibited by BASSA (quashing dissent etc).
The whole issue has been characterised by bullying in one form or another.
There are many subtle examples of bullying by posters on this thread.
To deliberately mis-spell someone's name is one. To suggest that non-cabin crew 'get a life' instead of discussing the subject is another.
Don't get me started on the forms of bullying exhibited by BASSA (quashing dissent etc).
The whole issue has been characterised by bullying in one form or another.
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I would suggest that the report of the pair winning their claim against BA in court is just another piece of fiction to lift spirits prior to the vote, along the lines of other letters written by the union. 'Guerilla tactics' were promised, and it seems this is just part of the plan.
It's all about the Bassa leadership whipping their members into voting No, as they can't recommend rejection explicitly.
Then they can ballot, strike, and regain what they have lost under WW. Power.
It's all about the Bassa leadership whipping their members into voting No, as they can't recommend rejection explicitly.
Then they can ballot, strike, and regain what they have lost under WW. Power.
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BASSA members who feel they have badly represented in this dispute could take a look at this link Behaviour of the serial bully: attention seeker, wannabe, guru and sociopath including industrial psychopath, corporate psychopath and workplace psychopath and see if they recognise any of the descriptions as fitting the behaviour of the BASSA leadership. You will be amazed at how some of the descriptions of serial bullies seem to fit the behaviours we have witnessed.
For so-called trade union reps, there to protect their members from workplace bullying, to indulge shamelessly in these behaviours, is unforgivable.
Strikers are not immune, to polarize or 'send to coventry' any group of workers is also B&H.
From the website link above is a characteristic of a sociopathic bully:
does this ring any bells with those who have been BASSA-watching?
A couple more from the same source link above (fascinating stuff):
For so-called trade union reps, there to protect their members from workplace bullying, to indulge shamelessly in these behaviours, is unforgivable.
Strikers are not immune, to polarize or 'send to coventry' any group of workers is also B&H.
From the website link above is a characteristic of a sociopathic bully:
despite a trail of devastation to individuals, organisations, families and communities, the actions of a socialised psychopath may go undetected or unrecognised for years
A couple more from the same source link above (fascinating stuff):
persists in and pursues vindictive vendettas using self-evidently false evidence or information, even after this is brought to the attention of the sociopath
will often manipulate minor bullies of the Wannabe type (who on their own might or would not merit the label 'serial bully') into acting as agents of harassment and as unwitting or unwilling conductors of vendettas
is adept at placing people in situations where the sociopath can tap into each person's instinctive urge to retaliate in order to use them as his or her instruments or agents of harassment
gains gratification from provoking others into engaging in adversarial conflict
will often manipulate minor bullies of the Wannabe type (who on their own might or would not merit the label 'serial bully') into acting as agents of harassment and as unwitting or unwilling conductors of vendettas
is adept at placing people in situations where the sociopath can tap into each person's instinctive urge to retaliate in order to use them as his or her instruments or agents of harassment
gains gratification from provoking others into engaging in adversarial conflict
Last edited by strikemaster82; 24th Oct 2010 at 10:24.
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I said, and I have no reason to lie, I have never posted on here before!! I have not just posted under another user name. This is my view and after reading such hatred and rude comments about Cabin Crew for a long time, I felt I just had to say my bit.
Please take a minute, stand back and think about what you write. I have been in the company 16 years. To write things about crew with such hatred has upset me so much. I have shed many tears on how I feel my 'colleagues' now feel about me. What has happened to the job I loved and the people I loved working with!!
I exercised my democratic right to strike. I dont bully or harrass people. I'm not a millitant. I am a woman in my fifties who did what I felt was right to protect my terms and conditions, simple as!! Certain colleagues were prepared to do exactly the same not so long ago, luckily they were never put to the test!! Yet everyone in the company from ground staff, to managers and (dare I say it without the MOD taking this post out) my own flight crew colleagues feel they have the right to make nasty comments and have a vitrolic opinion!!
I dont feel obliged to justify my opinion to everyone. Yes I know the company will survive without me, as the company will survive without us ALL! Whatever we do there will always be others that can do our jobs for less money. Maybe even better.
I do a good job, work hard and love my role.
All I'm asking is PLEASE think about how and what you write makes some of us FEEL. I am human. I did love my job and I did respect my colleagues. Now sadly I'm shocked.
There I've said it now!!
And please dont correct my spelling, grammer or punctuation. I am me, not perfect, not Einstein but I'm human and make mistakes!! To correct things like that is also demeaning.
Please take a minute, stand back and think about what you write. I have been in the company 16 years. To write things about crew with such hatred has upset me so much. I have shed many tears on how I feel my 'colleagues' now feel about me. What has happened to the job I loved and the people I loved working with!!
I exercised my democratic right to strike. I dont bully or harrass people. I'm not a millitant. I am a woman in my fifties who did what I felt was right to protect my terms and conditions, simple as!! Certain colleagues were prepared to do exactly the same not so long ago, luckily they were never put to the test!! Yet everyone in the company from ground staff, to managers and (dare I say it without the MOD taking this post out) my own flight crew colleagues feel they have the right to make nasty comments and have a vitrolic opinion!!
I dont feel obliged to justify my opinion to everyone. Yes I know the company will survive without me, as the company will survive without us ALL! Whatever we do there will always be others that can do our jobs for less money. Maybe even better.
I do a good job, work hard and love my role.
All I'm asking is PLEASE think about how and what you write makes some of us FEEL. I am human. I did love my job and I did respect my colleagues. Now sadly I'm shocked.
There I've said it now!!
And please dont correct my spelling, grammer or punctuation. I am me, not perfect, not Einstein but I'm human and make mistakes!! To correct things like that is also demeaning.
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PROUDLY TOOK IA IN ALL WAVES 
LOST STAFF TRAVEL
New offer!!!
.................Will I vote YES
.................Will I accept NO
.................Will I strike again YES YES YES!!
Dont ever believe the fight in us has gone!!
LOST STAFF TRAVEL
New offer!!!
.................Will I vote YES
.................Will I accept NO
.................Will I strike again YES YES YES!!
Dont ever believe the fight in us has gone!!
If so, then what exactly?
Do you still think you can:
1, Put the csd back in his "office".
2. Stop Mixed Fleet from starting.
3. Get a better pay rise.
4. Get ST back
5. Reinstate sacked crew.
Are there any other aims?
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Regular posters please skip this post.
Lady Fly Fly, here are a few basic facts about this thread and this forum. Just so you can put your mind at rest.
So Lady Fly Fly, welcome to PPRune, we are happy that you have joined us and interested in hearing your opinions.
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flapsforty
Member of the PPRuNe moderator team.
Lady Fly Fly, here are a few basic facts about this thread and this forum. Just so you can put your mind at rest.
- This forum is moderated by adult, career Cabin Crew.
. - Cabin crew who work for various major, non-British legacy carriers.
. - Cabin crew who do not have a stake in the outcome of this dispute, but who freely donate their time to provide fellow cabin crew with a bullsh!t and bully free arena to discuss their opinions.
. - Strongly disagreeing with someone´s opinion does NOT equal hating that person. "Hate the sin, not the sinner" as the saying goes. Nobody here "hates" cabin crew.
. - On this thread we try to argue opinions and facts. Not emotions and not the personal characteristics of people.
. - Well argued points backed up by facts will find favour, even with your opponents. Posts containing merely one liners and slogans will usually not impress.
. - Robust, factual argument is the aim of this forum, a strictly level playing field for BA CC and other interested airline employees to freely exchange opinions is the aim of this thread.
. - This thread and its previous incarnations has been running for a few years now. Posters using the
button rather than retaliating in kind when an offensive post crops up, help us keep this thread worthwhile and readable.
. - No point participating here if you are easily hurt by silliness or unable to differentiate between a strong factual opinion and a personal attack.
So Lady Fly Fly, welcome to PPRune, we are happy that you have joined us and interested in hearing your opinions.
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flapsforty
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Best I dont participate then........what do you consider silliness???
I consider them hurtful.
Some posts have made a joke about Cabin Crew leaving and getting a job as a doorman in a hotel. THAT IS PERSONAL and condesending!!
What is wrong with being a doorman in a hotel. Its a job!! Why are people on here so pompous. One day we might ALL be grateful of a job. For new contract people this can be of equal pay. I dont consider it beneath me!!
I am just using one example of what has been many personal attacks!
No point participating here if you are easily hurt by silliness or unable to differentiate between a strong factual opinion and a personal attack.
Best I dont participate then........what do you consider silliness???
I consider them hurtful.
Some posts have made a joke about Cabin Crew leaving and getting a job as a doorman in a hotel. THAT IS PERSONAL and condesending!!
What is wrong with being a doorman in a hotel. Its a job!! Why are people on here so pompous. One day we might ALL be grateful of a job. For new contract people this can be of equal pay. I dont consider it beneath me!!
I am just using one example of what has been many personal attacks!
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Lady Fly, Fly,
The BASSA misinformation system encourages people to believe that anyone who disagrees with the BASSA stance is a bully.
I have been flying, professionally, for 24 years now and in that time I have very, very rarely seen bullying and victimisation. I have seen many examples of people disagreeing and having fantastic arguments over niggly little things but constant, systematic bullying? Nope. I feel that you seem to think that anyone who expresses an opinion against the CC Unions current suicide strategy as personally attacking you. As has been said many times before the occasional hot post on here is directed at BASSA and not at the individual.
A classic example is that that you, yourself used about another group coming close to strike. The vast majority of BASSA members don't actually understand what that was about but have been told on the BASSA forum to throw it back as an example of how vindictive and two faced those colleagues are being. (Yes, I did read the thread on the BASSA forum). The difference was quite simply that the negotiations arrived at a totally cost neutral solution which the company, whilst earning clear profits, still refused to accept. A fairly big difference between that and what is happening now.
BASSA believed it could bring the company down. BASSA believed it could project rhetoric into the company forcing it to either back down or collapse in a time of extreme financial insecurity. BASSA attempted to strong arm its way out of savings and when it subsequently couldn't it refused to negotiate totally. The rest of the company employees acted purely to protect their jobs from a suicidal Union. No direct animosity towards the individual but incredularity toward the Union representation.
Please feel free to correct any spelling and punctuation errors, as you state I am only human but I feel that it is good to accept criticism and learn from my mistakes.
(Prior to learning my current trade I worked behind the counter in a chip shop earning little money but it was money I earned thus making it and any job something to be proud of, including a hotel doorman.)
The BASSA misinformation system encourages people to believe that anyone who disagrees with the BASSA stance is a bully.
I have been flying, professionally, for 24 years now and in that time I have very, very rarely seen bullying and victimisation. I have seen many examples of people disagreeing and having fantastic arguments over niggly little things but constant, systematic bullying? Nope. I feel that you seem to think that anyone who expresses an opinion against the CC Unions current suicide strategy as personally attacking you. As has been said many times before the occasional hot post on here is directed at BASSA and not at the individual.
A classic example is that that you, yourself used about another group coming close to strike. The vast majority of BASSA members don't actually understand what that was about but have been told on the BASSA forum to throw it back as an example of how vindictive and two faced those colleagues are being. (Yes, I did read the thread on the BASSA forum). The difference was quite simply that the negotiations arrived at a totally cost neutral solution which the company, whilst earning clear profits, still refused to accept. A fairly big difference between that and what is happening now.
BASSA believed it could bring the company down. BASSA believed it could project rhetoric into the company forcing it to either back down or collapse in a time of extreme financial insecurity. BASSA attempted to strong arm its way out of savings and when it subsequently couldn't it refused to negotiate totally. The rest of the company employees acted purely to protect their jobs from a suicidal Union. No direct animosity towards the individual but incredularity toward the Union representation.
Please feel free to correct any spelling and punctuation errors, as you state I am only human but I feel that it is good to accept criticism and learn from my mistakes.
(Prior to learning my current trade I worked behind the counter in a chip shop earning little money but it was money I earned thus making it and any job something to be proud of, including a hotel doorman.)
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Just a theory
My first post so be gentle!
As a CSD (LH, who often left his office to work before getting on a trolley early this year!!) I have a whacky theory that IA was actually not the best option (I worked throughout as I am not a union member).
Mr Francis has stated, correctly, that it makes no business sense having crew sitting at home on pay not flying.
As an alt to IA the union could have instructed/requested all cc who are on the list for part-time moves (well over 3,000) to refuse the change of contract. This would have left the company in a difficult position as to how to manage more crew than slots for crew. MF is coming in to take up the slack created by those on old contracts reducing their worktime.
Plse dont think I am anti BA. On the contrary. I love my job, enjoy coming to work etc however I also love the politics and machinastions. I just wonder what would have happened.
Any Thoughts?
As a CSD (LH, who often left his office to work before getting on a trolley early this year!!) I have a whacky theory that IA was actually not the best option (I worked throughout as I am not a union member).
Mr Francis has stated, correctly, that it makes no business sense having crew sitting at home on pay not flying.
As an alt to IA the union could have instructed/requested all cc who are on the list for part-time moves (well over 3,000) to refuse the change of contract. This would have left the company in a difficult position as to how to manage more crew than slots for crew. MF is coming in to take up the slack created by those on old contracts reducing their worktime.
Plse dont think I am anti BA. On the contrary. I love my job, enjoy coming to work etc however I also love the politics and machinastions. I just wonder what would have happened.
Any Thoughts?
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Last post on this thread diversion Lady Fly Fly.
Please read and digest carefully.
There are two types of personal attacks:
Saying bad things about another poster. For example: "You are an idiot."
Hurling insults at another poster. For example: "Screw you."
Saying that cabin crew should get a job as doorman does not say anything about another poster. Hence, not a personal attack.
Saying that people here are so pompous does say something about other posters and is a personal attack.
I say again, learn the difference if you want to enjoy your pruning.
Good link: What is a personal attack.
Please read and digest carefully.
Description of Personal Attack
A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how repugnant an individual might be, he or she can still make true claims.
Not all ad Hominems are fallacious. In some cases, an individual's characteristics can have a bearing on the question of the veracity of her claims. For example, if someone is shown to be a pathological liar, then what he says can be considered to be unreliable. However, such attacks are weak, since even pathological liars might speak the truth on occasion.
In general, it is best to focus one's attention on the content of the claim and not on who made the claim. It is the content that determines the truth of the claim and not the characteristics of the person making the claim.
A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how repugnant an individual might be, he or she can still make true claims.
Not all ad Hominems are fallacious. In some cases, an individual's characteristics can have a bearing on the question of the veracity of her claims. For example, if someone is shown to be a pathological liar, then what he says can be considered to be unreliable. However, such attacks are weak, since even pathological liars might speak the truth on occasion.
In general, it is best to focus one's attention on the content of the claim and not on who made the claim. It is the content that determines the truth of the claim and not the characteristics of the person making the claim.
There are two types of personal attacks:
Saying bad things about another poster. For example: "You are an idiot."
Hurling insults at another poster. For example: "Screw you."
Saying that cabin crew should get a job as doorman does not say anything about another poster. Hence, not a personal attack.
Saying that people here are so pompous does say something about other posters and is a personal attack.
I say again, learn the difference if you want to enjoy your pruning.
Good link: What is a personal attack.
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Wirbelsturm.
Guys. I have made no mention of bullying. I have not said I felt bullied. Why does everyone think I am brainwashed by BASSA. I will say again. I made MY decision on what I believed.
The point I am still trying to make is please.........dont make personal remarks. To you all they may be 'silliness' but to me they are unnecessary!
Guys. I have made no mention of bullying. I have not said I felt bullied. Why does everyone think I am brainwashed by BASSA. I will say again. I made MY decision on what I believed.
The point I am still trying to make is please.........dont make personal remarks. To you all they may be 'silliness' but to me they are unnecessary!
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In his letter to Brendan Barber, Willie stipulated that "All parts of the union, Unite, BASSA and Amicus, must recommend acceptance."
Has any part of the union actually recommended acceptance?
Unite have said that the deal is the best that can be achieved through negotiation, which is another way of saying that, if people want a better deal they'll have to strike for it.
And BASSA have said...
It was decided after much debate that there are enough changes to BA’s original proposal to warrant going back to you again for you to decide whether BA have come up with an offer that is acceptable to end this dispute. It is now up to you, if you vote against the offer the dispute goes on if you vote to accept the dispute is over.
Neither sounds to me like a recommendation to accept.
Has any part of the union actually recommended acceptance?
Unite have said that the deal is the best that can be achieved through negotiation, which is another way of saying that, if people want a better deal they'll have to strike for it.
And BASSA have said...
It was decided after much debate that there are enough changes to BA’s original proposal to warrant going back to you again for you to decide whether BA have come up with an offer that is acceptable to end this dispute. It is now up to you, if you vote against the offer the dispute goes on if you vote to accept the dispute is over.
Neither sounds to me like a recommendation to accept.
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Part-time
bigby wrote:
BA has made a commitment to offer part-time contracts to all 5,594 cabin crew who requested reduced hours, including a new 33 per cent arrangement. It would have been unpopular for prospective part-timers if Unite had requested what you suggest.
No. MF is coming in as part of the move towards a permanent reduction in cabin crew costs, which are the highest of all UK airlines.
As an alt to IA the union could have instructed/requested all cc who are on the list for part-time moves (well over 3,000) to refuse the change of contract.
MF is coming in to take up the slack created by those on old contracts reducing their worktime.
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Lady Fly Fly
Welcome to the forum.
You said
yet you also said
I am flight crew with with several friends who are cabin crew. I am certainly not vitriolic towards cabin crew, if anything I am sympathetic to the path they have been led down. Like many posters on this forum I am quite critical of ways the strike has been handled by BASSA and also critical of the behaviour of some of the strikers. That does not mean I hate cabin crew.
I agree you have a democratic right to strike. Are you able to say what you believe has been achieved by striking so far and what you hope to achieve in future? Do you think that further striking will encourage Willie Walsh to give you a better deal? Are you one of the cabin crew who believe the latest BA offer is an insult and if so why is it an insult?
I am just encouraging you to state your thoughts on the topic.
Welcome to the forum.
You said
please.........dont make personal remarks
Why are people on here so pompous
I agree you have a democratic right to strike. Are you able to say what you believe has been achieved by striking so far and what you hope to achieve in future? Do you think that further striking will encourage Willie Walsh to give you a better deal? Are you one of the cabin crew who believe the latest BA offer is an insult and if so why is it an insult?
I am just encouraging you to state your thoughts on the topic.
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DeThirdDefect
In his letter to Brendan Barber, Willie stipulated that "All parts of the union, Unite, BASSA and Amicus, must recommend acceptance."
Has any part of the union actually recommended acceptance?
Unite have said that the deal is the best that can be achieved through negotiation, which is another way of saying that, if people want a better deal they'll have to strike for it.
And BASSA have said...
It was decided after much debate that there are enough changes to BA’s original proposal to warrant going back to you again for you to decide whether BA have come up with an offer that is acceptable to end this dispute. It is now up to you, if you vote against the offer the dispute goes on if you vote to accept the dispute is over.
Neither sounds to me like a recommendation to accept.
Has any part of the union actually recommended acceptance?
Unite have said that the deal is the best that can be achieved through negotiation, which is another way of saying that, if people want a better deal they'll have to strike for it.
And BASSA have said...
It was decided after much debate that there are enough changes to BA’s original proposal to warrant going back to you again for you to decide whether BA have come up with an offer that is acceptable to end this dispute. It is now up to you, if you vote against the offer the dispute goes on if you vote to accept the dispute is over.
Neither sounds to me like a recommendation to accept.
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A recommendation from BASSA would say:
"We believe that this is the best deal we can get, and therefore recommend that you vote in favour of acceptance"
What is reproduced above isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the deal.
"We believe that this is the best deal we can get, and therefore recommend that you vote in favour of acceptance"
What is reproduced above isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the deal.
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I think that it is a huge step, as it is a recommendation.
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The actual recommendation says this:
"The new offer is based on the old offer that you declined during the summer, however it does now have some improvements and safeguards as well as including a phased return of staff travel and some additional intervention by ACAS for the people who have faced disciplinary action.
Contained in the offer from Mr. Walsh, you will notice his insistence that your union recommends the offer or it will not be made available for you to vote on, denying you your democratic vote. For this reason alone, your union will fulfill that request, because to do otherwise would be to deny you an opportunity to vote."
"The new offer is based on the old offer that you declined during the summer, however it does now have some improvements and safeguards as well as including a phased return of staff travel and some additional intervention by ACAS for the people who have faced disciplinary action.
Contained in the offer from Mr. Walsh, you will notice his insistence that your union recommends the offer or it will not be made available for you to vote on, denying you your democratic vote. For this reason alone, your union will fulfill that request, because to do otherwise would be to deny you an opportunity to vote."