BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Disagree with Scarpa on two points.1/ the tax free element of the flight pay is unlikely to be as high as that which the pilots achieve.At LGW crew are taxed on more than 60% of the flight pay.2/to say that Mid Fleet pay ,based on these calculations ,is at least as good if not better than other carriers is false.Even Easy Jet take home more.
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I'm a WW CSD, just got back from a trip today and flew with a temp who I had flown with last year, he is now on £2.40 an hour and his roster is full of 24hr days, he loves flying with BA but has seen a significant drop in his salary since he was called back. He is keen to stay with us but lives 2 1/2hrs away, he has had his house valued but even if he sells it, he would not be able to afford something similar in the South (he currently lives in a one bedroomed starter home) and with his current salary would find it difficult to get a mortgage for the difference. At 37 he feels that it's not worth moving his life to the South for very little reward. This I feel is such a shame as his enthusiasm, work ethic and general attitude puts some of our current crew on the better paid contracts to shame!
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1/ the tax free element of the flight pay is unlikely to be as high as that which the pilots achieve.
When the BASSA board were quizzed over this lack of negotiation they merely replied that 'you can't negotiate with the taxman'.
Another winner from LM and Co.
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Just to put a sort of benchmark on salaries, my 22 year old daughter is a newly graduated Physiotherapist, working 5 days a week and one weekend in four in the NHS based in Epsom. Her gross is 22k. She lives in Clapham in a house share (£110/week + bills) and doesn't run a car as she can get everywhere she needs to either on public transport or by bike.
She takes home around £1200/month and hasn't asked for any help yet
My other daughter who is 20 pays £426 for insurance on a Corsa. The AA figure for running a car includes depreciation. You don't need a new car.
If people don't want to do the job, they needn't apply, if they all start leaving after 6 months or the GPMs are rubbish then BA may have to up the salary.
She takes home around £1200/month and hasn't asked for any help yet
My other daughter who is 20 pays £426 for insurance on a Corsa. The AA figure for running a car includes depreciation. You don't need a new car.
If people don't want to do the job, they needn't apply, if they all start leaving after 6 months or the GPMs are rubbish then BA may have to up the salary.
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Why is it that people feel that they need to 'save people' from themselves?
The simple question for ANY job is whether or not the salary offered will cover the costs of living, working and commuting in that area. BA is not a charity. The commuters who lost their ST seem to think that the company owes them the right to live where they want and should recompense them for the cost of the tickets they lost. Wrong.
We all choose to apply for a job, we all choose where we want to live and work, we all choose whether or not to accept a job. Simple.
If someone who takes a job on New Fleet finds it financially difficult after a while then they haven't researched well enough. Resign and look for employment else where.
The simple question for ANY job is whether or not the salary offered will cover the costs of living, working and commuting in that area. BA is not a charity. The commuters who lost their ST seem to think that the company owes them the right to live where they want and should recompense them for the cost of the tickets they lost. Wrong.
We all choose to apply for a job, we all choose where we want to live and work, we all choose whether or not to accept a job. Simple.
If someone who takes a job on New Fleet finds it financially difficult after a while then they haven't researched well enough. Resign and look for employment else where.
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All well and good Malcomf.Mid fleet is offering a basic of £11,ooo ish a year , half of the figure that your daughter earns gross.Anything earned above that depends on the amount of flght pay hours that you can achieve at £2.40 per hour.You are not guaranteed to earn a good amount of flight pay as it depends on the bidding system and how it distributes the workload.If you take holiday you achieve no flight pay .£22,000 sounds like a decent starting salary for your daughter and she can count on that regular monthly amount and therefore adjust her lifestyle to this budget.
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Wirbelsturm
it is hard to research something when the terms and conditions are so vague.All they know is that they will get a take home pay of at least the net monthly equivalent of £11000 gross.Anything else is for the time being unquantifiable as there are as yet no statistics for what is achievable as flight pay.
As many have said,we shall have to wait and see whether this is to proove a successful opperation or not.
it is hard to research something when the terms and conditions are so vague.All they know is that they will get a take home pay of at least the net monthly equivalent of £11000 gross.Anything else is for the time being unquantifiable as there are as yet no statistics for what is achievable as flight pay.
As many have said,we shall have to wait and see whether this is to proove a successful opperation or not.
Last edited by tomkins; 25th Oct 2010 at 16:57.
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I was taking Scapa's figures on the previous page of around £1200 take home p/m. As you say that is variable, but with the hourly rate as the pilots have found out it is much less variable than legacy crew rates.
I was just trying to make the point that it is perfectly possible to have a nice lifestyle on that sort of take home, as long as you haven't got unrealistic expectations.
BTW out of her course of 20, only 5 have got jobs as Physios, it's hard out there. She is on a 3 month contract, and doesn't know if it will be extended yet in 2 weeks time.
I was just trying to make the point that it is perfectly possible to have a nice lifestyle on that sort of take home, as long as you haven't got unrealistic expectations.
BTW out of her course of 20, only 5 have got jobs as Physios, it's hard out there. She is on a 3 month contract, and doesn't know if it will be extended yet in 2 weeks time.
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As you say that is variable, but with the hourly rate as the pilots have found out it is much less variable than legacy crew rates.
For info, LHR shorthaul pilots fly 750-800 hours per year. Duty time runs pretty high as well. Longhaul pilots fly 850+ hours.
Your best source of information regarding comparative hours are likely to be current LGW crew. Jetsetlady, where are you.....?
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I am heartened to read of the concern that some heritage crew have for the future members of mixed fleet.
Perhaps someone could remind me of the costed items that BASSA were prepared to offer BA to stop the formation of MF?
Perhaps someone could remind me of the costed items that BASSA were prepared to offer BA to stop the formation of MF?
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Most Lgw crew turn between 780 and 850 hours .However flight pay is earned every hour that you are away from base.Lgw is predominently long haul now which means that they can rack up a high number of £2.40 hours.New Fleet is mixed flying ,so the quantity of £2.40 hours may be a lot harder to comeby.
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it is hard to research something when the terms and conditions are so vague.All they know is that they will get a take home pay of at least the net monthly equivalent of £11000 gross.Anything else is for the time being unquantifiable as there are as yet no statistics for what is achievable as flight pay.
It makes me chuckle when you see posts on the BASSA forum crowing that the entire wage bill for a New Fleet crew going to Narita would be less than just the allowances under the old scheme!
And still they wonder why the majority of the company wouldn't back them?
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Quite right, its 2.40 for every hour away from base.
So to achieve what BA reckons, i.e. 17k (18.5-20k for comparison see previous post) you need to work 2500 duty hours per year. Assuming you have 4 weeks leave that leaves 48 possible working weeks per year. This is 52 duty hours a week. So even if you do entirely short haul working weeks then this is 5 10 hour days. Long days i admit but if you throw in a 4 day trip away this is 70-80 duty hours. Over a month I can see it will not be difficult to amass the hours required to achieve what BA states. How many duty hours per month do our current EF/WW/LGW crew do? I rather suspect its more than 225 per month.
MF will run with a bid preference system, the same as LGW this will allow crew to bid for either nights at home, more money i.e. longer trips away, early starts, late finishes, days off, whatever lifestyle they want to lead within the hours they are required to do.
In fact I can see the potential to earn much more that what is stated above by bidding for longhaul trips. WW are quite efficient as far as duty hours/flying hours are concerned, how many do they achieve per month, this will give a good guide as to what is achievable.
Stating that crew can only rely on 11k pa is futile, the rest is not 'at risk' it just means that you have to come to work to earn what you expect.
Scapa
So to achieve what BA reckons, i.e. 17k (18.5-20k for comparison see previous post) you need to work 2500 duty hours per year. Assuming you have 4 weeks leave that leaves 48 possible working weeks per year. This is 52 duty hours a week. So even if you do entirely short haul working weeks then this is 5 10 hour days. Long days i admit but if you throw in a 4 day trip away this is 70-80 duty hours. Over a month I can see it will not be difficult to amass the hours required to achieve what BA states. How many duty hours per month do our current EF/WW/LGW crew do? I rather suspect its more than 225 per month.
MF will run with a bid preference system, the same as LGW this will allow crew to bid for either nights at home, more money i.e. longer trips away, early starts, late finishes, days off, whatever lifestyle they want to lead within the hours they are required to do.
In fact I can see the potential to earn much more that what is stated above by bidding for longhaul trips. WW are quite efficient as far as duty hours/flying hours are concerned, how many do they achieve per month, this will give a good guide as to what is achievable.
Stating that crew can only rely on 11k pa is futile, the rest is not 'at risk' it just means that you have to come to work to earn what you expect.
Scapa
Last edited by Scapa; 25th Oct 2010 at 20:14. Reason: editing
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Maybe you are right Scapa ,time will tell,however alot will depend on the trips that move to MF.As yet we know very little about the longhaul destinations that will be put on to the Mid Fleet ,or the length of the trips,you cannot choose to earn the big money if the potential to do so does not exist.
I would expect that most crew would bid for longhaul because 1/ they see it as more exciting and 2/ it bringing in more money.If most do this there will be very little to go around especially at the start.
I would expect that most crew would bid for longhaul because 1/ they see it as more exciting and 2/ it bringing in more money.If most do this there will be very little to go around especially at the start.
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In a bid to inject some realism into the figures being thrown around on living costs vs the take home pay for MF entrants, I did a bit of research.
Biggest single cost is going to be a roof over one's head. Checking out sites like Find-a-property for the going rate and a studio flat rental runs out at around £500pm if you live around the Hounslow/Feltham/Slough/Stanwell areas. Two bed flats come at around the £900 mark.
Monthly food bills - say £250. Travel costs - well, the areas are pretty close in to T5 so bus ticket would be c£80 per month. Mobile bill ? Reasonable price plans for c£30pm. OK So I haven't bunged in heating, lighting, council tax and personal spend, but so far the monthly outgoing is under £900.
That's 75% of the take home figure being quoted. If you opt to get a two bed place and share, the numbers get better. OK so you won't be able to buy your own place, but based on current property prices in the area, very few single people starting out can. In any case, as others have pointed out, on the money being paid, the likelihood is that there will be a reasonable staff turnover as MF joiners won't see is a job for life. Thus it is unlikely that they would wish to be saddled with a mortgage.
Yes, it is a bit on the tight side, but so are most starters I'm afraid.
Biggest single cost is going to be a roof over one's head. Checking out sites like Find-a-property for the going rate and a studio flat rental runs out at around £500pm if you live around the Hounslow/Feltham/Slough/Stanwell areas. Two bed flats come at around the £900 mark.
Monthly food bills - say £250. Travel costs - well, the areas are pretty close in to T5 so bus ticket would be c£80 per month. Mobile bill ? Reasonable price plans for c£30pm. OK So I haven't bunged in heating, lighting, council tax and personal spend, but so far the monthly outgoing is under £900.
That's 75% of the take home figure being quoted. If you opt to get a two bed place and share, the numbers get better. OK so you won't be able to buy your own place, but based on current property prices in the area, very few single people starting out can. In any case, as others have pointed out, on the money being paid, the likelihood is that there will be a reasonable staff turnover as MF joiners won't see is a job for life. Thus it is unlikely that they would wish to be saddled with a mortgage.
Yes, it is a bit on the tight side, but so are most starters I'm afraid.
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Colonel White
Yes agree. Very little left in the pot.
Utilities alone, Gas, water,electric, phone (or mobile), TV licence, Insurances, council tax, service charges etc could be a large proportion.
Also one important figure - cost of food downroute!!
One other point, when I lived in Slough, not far from LHR, I could not get a bus that would ARRIVE early enough for my first report at 05.00. Agreed not a daily occurance but difficult to change report time.
Yes agree. Very little left in the pot.
Utilities alone, Gas, water,electric, phone (or mobile), TV licence, Insurances, council tax, service charges etc could be a large proportion.
Also one important figure - cost of food downroute!!
One other point, when I lived in Slough, not far from LHR, I could not get a bus that would ARRIVE early enough for my first report at 05.00. Agreed not a daily occurance but difficult to change report time.
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Just got off a Gatwick trip and all 10 of us are Voting No! to this latest proposal. After all, there's nothing in it for Gatwick. The flight crew have got their Leisure Agreement. What do we have? Nothing! We're already having our MOA breached with the Maldives itinerary. Cancun is even worse!
Thankfully Gatwick is waking up. We've lost our right to transfer, something our flight crew would NOT tolerate! And now our MOA is being breached further with NO acknowledgement for the breach. Would our flight crew colleagues accept continued breaches to their agreements and say nothing?
Looks like Gatwick is coming into this dispute. And not before time as ALL our futures are involved.
Thankfully Gatwick is waking up. We've lost our right to transfer, something our flight crew would NOT tolerate! And now our MOA is being breached further with NO acknowledgement for the breach. Would our flight crew colleagues accept continued breaches to their agreements and say nothing?
Looks like Gatwick is coming into this dispute. And not before time as ALL our futures are involved.