British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)

[strikemaster82]

Duggie and BCCM if you think about it logically you will see that you are wrong about these lists. BA has to have the data as it has to maintain personnel records. BA would not make a simple mistake as you seem to think.

You guys are coming across like desperate men clutching at straws. Why not accept defeat and make a settlement so we can all get on with procuring new aircraft and opening new routes?

[Wirbelsturm]

The fact that they had to create a mailing LIST to send out the loss of Staff Travel letters to all the CC who took part in lawful IA

Wow, conspiracy theory, perhaps they just sent out letters to all those who were rostered but didn't turn up to work? Admittedly they made a mistake or two sending out to people who were registered sick, which were quickly rectified but, in general, they achieved their aim.

I love the BASSA spin on numbers. Reducing the Union membership to make their striking numbers look better. Real victory there.

All of that aside the number of striking cabin crew is totally irrelevant. The only relevance is how many passengers BA achieved throughout the BASSA 'ground the airline' strike.

I would suggest that BA won that one then, and the future threat being countered with 100% LH will make the BASSA IA totally meaningless.

[strikemaster82]

AH:

I assume it would make management pleased as they would lose another expensive and restrictive crew member!

Do you think you may have played into their hands? Have you walked into WW's trap? What did you expect the outcome to be when you failed to report - genuine question, did you think you would 'win' and what was that victory supposed to look like?

[DeThirdDefect]

What evidence do you have that BA has compiled a blacklist?

The fact that they had to create a mailing LIST to send out the loss of Staff Travel letters to all the CC who took part in lawful IA

So, if BA had removed people's staff travel without having sent them a letter to advise them individually of the fact, would you have been happy as they didn't have what you consider to be a blacklist?

If WW reads PPRune tonight and, as a result, orders the destruction of any list that might have been used to send the letters out, what will your reaction be when a court rules that the removal of ST is unlawful and BA says that they're unable to reinstate it as they no longer have a list of the affected people, having destroyed it after being advised it was unlawful.

[24-06]

Individual Offer

Just wondered if there are any PPRuNers who like me have not as yet received the individual letter and offer? I’ve been away on holiday and was surprised not to find it on my doormat on my return. Not that I haven’t read and considered the terms today on the web but I was wondering if there are any non-union cabin crew members who like myself have not as yet signed? I’m wondering what repercussions there might be by not signing. Obviously, we have a number of days yet. This is a cabin crew matter only!

[TorC]

24-06

If you do want to accept the offer, then I believe you can print it off from the intranet and mail it.

As to the consequences of not accepting it, well my guess is that you would then be subject to whatever, if anything, unite eventually agrees with BA. (They are meeting at ACAS next week, according to the unite website). Failing that, I imagine the 90 days change of contract could quite possibly be BA's next move, giving you the option of accepting whatever BA then chooses to offer, or simply being deemed to have resigned.

If it did get to the 90 day change of contract stage, then I can easily imagine it would be the same as what's on offer until 31/07, less the top-up scheme and the salary increases to 2013. Just my opinion though.

[Pornpants1]

Ava Hannah

Even "seer" from the bassa forum and one of the co-founders of Crew defence says that historically thee case take ages to come to fruition.

I am confused because if this list thing, along with punishing strikers was soooooo in black and white as bacabincrew member is suggesting and I note Duggie (I wont answer a question loprendo) fashion agrees, then why are crew defence utilising the race relations act, surely they would just serve an injunction? no?

[24-06]

TorC

Thanks very much for your views on the individual offer. Food for thought - seems like Unite isn´t going to get any better deal and that probably if there was full reinstatement of concessions, they would accept this offer anyway.

[blueskiesup]

How can any of you hold your heads up high. Unemployment rising and everything else that's going on in this world, and all you're concerned about is taking your company to court for something that, at the end of a day, is a PERK and not a right.

[24-06]

TorC

Just a thought re your suggestion that the 90 day might be 31/7 less the top-up scheme and the salary increases to 2013. That would be pretty bad luck for the union members who voted to accept the offer. Not sure that's how BA could work it.

[Caribbean Boy]

bacabincrewmember,

You are giving your interpretation of what the law says as if you are the Master of the Rolls.

For a list to be a 'blacklist' it must both:

• contain information about trade union members or activists
• have been complied to be used by employers or employment agencies to discriminate on grounds of trade union membership or activities when recruiting or when employing people

It seems to me that BA has, if anything, bent over backward in dealing fairly with strikers. Are not all cabin crew told to behave themselves once back at work? If you had been on strike with Ryanair, Michael O'Leary would have sacked you long ago. Then you would have cause to complain.

[TorC]

Originally Posted by 24-06

snip .... - seems like Unite isn´t going to get any better deal and that probably if there was full reinstatement of concessions, they would accept this offer anyway.

Exactly, and in so doing, they themselves would then prove that this whole debacle has been a complete waste of time, and has served only to massage the egos of those running bassa (some of whom are no longer even employed by BA). In the meantime, ALL of us are left with a worse settlement, and a dimmer future, than we would have had if we had simply agreed to what BA asked in the very first place, or at the very least, negotiated sensibly about it.

But that's the dilema, for unite/bassa .... a dilema of their own making and one which shows them totally incapable of doing what they say they do. Why people still choose to pay them c£15 PM, is totally beyond me and has been for a long long time. Just how are they going to wriggle themselves out of this I wonder. If it wasn't having such an awful impact on me, my colleagues, my employer and it's customers, I'd be laughing.

And once it is all done and dusted, as it will be, we are likely left with the aftermath of all the ignorance, lies, vitriol and hatred that has been bandied about for the past year or so. If nothing else, then I hope some of our colleagues will at least have learnt that blindly following a cult-like union, and voting for IA whenever they are told, is not a good way to carry-on, for anyone.

The begining of the end is near, and it isn't going to be easy to watch, regardless of which side of the ditch one is on.

[TorC]

Originally Posted by 24-06

Just a thought re your suggestion that the 90 day might be 31/7 less the top-up scheme and the salary increases to 2013. That would be pretty bad luck for the union members who voted to accept the offer. Not sure that's how BA could work it.

BA may possibly make yet another offer, knowing that many have left the union. But there has to be a cut-off date eventually. People have surely had more than long enough to consider their continued union membership?

[bacabincrewmember]

Caribean Boy

You are giving your interpretation of what the law says as if you are the Master of the Rolls.

Nope I am just quoting what the law states

Quote:
For a list to be a 'blacklist' it must both:

• contain information about trade union members or activists
• have been complied to be used by employers or employment agencies to discriminate on grounds of trade union membership or activities when recruiting or when employing people

The list that BA compiled contains my personal information (name address etc) and has been used in order to discriminate against me by removing Staff Travel after partaking in a lawful dispute

If you had been on strike with Ryanair, Michael O'Leary would have sacked you long ago. Then you would have cause to complain.

I'm afraid even Mr O'Leary is not above the law - your opinion is pure speculation

[Colonel White]

Ava, duggie, and the other one..

Time for a reality check

Since the beginning of 2009 BA has been looking to reduce its cost base. All other departments worked to make this happen, including many where the union involved.was Unite. It might be worthwhile analysing what has happend to cabin crew in that period.

BA as part of the cost cutting programme offered a number of cabin crew VS or a move to shorter hours. VS offers were made and it would have been abundantly clear to all concerned that the direct consequence was going to be a change in the manning levels for ex LHR routes. So BA started to achieve some of its cost savings objectives. In order to make significant long term savings it is also clear that work needed to be done on reducing the overall hourly cost of crew. The company was not going to arbitrarily reduce the basic pay of staff. A better way of protecting existing crew wages was to introduce a new way of working for all new recruits combined with new pay scales that more accurately reflected the prevailing market rate for the role. If BA have miscalculated and set the pay too low, it would be sho up by the poor response to the new contracts on offer.

So far BA has achieved its stated aims of reducing manning levels and also putting i place a mechanism that will in time bring cabin crew costs clsoer to the industry norm.

On top of this, the company has either trained up or is in theprocess of training a significant number of staff who are now capable of operating as cabin crew. These are a mix of volunterrs and new recruits on New Fleet.

Let's now look at what Unite have achieved in the same time frame. They've sought an injunction preventing BA from introducing thereduced manning levels, but failed to have it granted. They've held a strike ballot which was ruled inadmissable 48 hours later. They've alienated the sympathy of large numbers of BA customers by threatening to strike for 12 days over Christmas. They have taken BA to court on the grounds that the revised manning levels were an unlawful change to individual staff members terms and conditions of employment and had the case thrown out. They have balloted again for strike action, and gained a substantial mandate from members, however, the numbers of crew who actually reported for work meant that BA was able to fly a modest proportion of its operation over the initial two three day periods. They have had offers put tothem for resolving the dispute but have either dismissed these out of hand or, when given an opportunity for time to put it to members, reneged on the agreement, resulting in the withdrawal of the offer by BA. The union has called members out in strike for a further 20 days of action. It has cost a those who participated in strike action not only the financial impact of no pay for the days not worked, but also the days when strikers have been derostered subsequent to walking out as the duty tours have then be reordered. The final coffin nail is that the union has cost those who walked out the loss of a perk - rebated tickets - something which is entirely a gift from the company. An outsider would say that the union don't seem to have done anything positive for staff. The union hasn't improved job security. It hasn't gained a pay rise (members ditched that one). It hasn't improved working conditions. The best that the union can hope for now is what ? Restoration of that perk that was lost by those who went on strike. So getting back something members previously had but lost during this dispute.

Is this really what it is all about ? You see, I think that those cabin crew who pay their dues to Unite have been mugged. The folk who went in strike appear to have done so for no real reason. They won't get the manning levels changed now. It's been nine months since they were brought in. They won't get New Fleet altered because its there. It's a fait accompli. All that may now happen is that the company moves from paying allowances to actuals - for reference this has already happened for all ground based staff. Oh sure the box payments may still be around, but only if the routes are not flown by New Fleet crews.

I challenge Duggie, Ava and indeed anyone else on this forum to come up with a list of positive things that Unite have achieved or believe they can achieve out of this dispute.

Over to you

[Caribbean Boy]

bacabincrewmember,

BA never needed a blacklist to remove your staff travel. You - as an individual - failed to turn up for work and paid the price.

As for being sacked by Michael O'Leary, it's not my opinion, that's what he said he would have done to strikers. By comparison, Willie Walsh is a fluffy bunny. You really don't know how lucky you are.

[LD12986]

bccm - As you consider BA is discriminating against strikers for maintaining a list of strikers, I take it you also condemn BASSA for the alledged display of CC who did not strike at Bedfont FC and BASSA's negligence by omission in not stopping members making threats against CC who went to work during the strikes.

The quid pro quo of respecting the right to withdraw labour is respecting the right to work.

[GS-Alpha]

Why does a list have to have been compiled? You employ someone to go through cabin crew achieved rosters. When you find someone with an XXX, you look up their address and stick a letter in the mail. Then you open up staff travel and enter a date for staff travel to be terminated. Then you move onto the next roster. You work through in alphabetical order or staff number order so that no one is missed out. In fact you could just write a computer program to do all of this. No list is required.

I think you are all clutching at straws.

[ranger07]

I try to avoid BA as the plague too.

Thankfully LGW have a good choice of holiday locations, I absolutely will not fly out of LHR knowing that there would be a possibilty of CC onboard like a minority on here that seem to think everyone else should take the hit with cut backs except them.

At work today, anger at bitterness that these self perceived elitists. Just what gives them the dam right to jeapordise OUR futures with such militant seventies style selfish behaviour.

[Abbey Road]

maintprog

Mr Walsh has told you that you have the final offer on the table so I think the time is approaching to 'put up or shut up' and let the majority of BA employees get on with building their airline.

BASSA and Unite have decided on bridge burning! Read on .....

Pornpants1 notes:

Sky news reporting that they are taking legal action against BA for the removal of staff travel

The problem with this is that even though a minority of BASSA members voted against the Final Offer, it would appear that BASSA and Unite are pre-empting any chance of further thoughts or actions about the Final Offer by instigating legal action. This is because BASSA and Unite don't really want to have their thunder stolen - after all, the Final Offer from BA clearly stated:

Unite will not directly or indirectly commence, fund or otherwise support any litigation against the company in respect of the withdrawal of staff travel from cabin crew who participated in strike action in March, May or June 2010 (including by those who were absent for sickness during that industrial action). I also expect immediate discontinuance of the case of Malone & Ors -v- BA, in relation to crew complement changes.

So, BASSA and Unite have burned any bridge that the majority, who didn't signal rejection of the offer, had of coming back to it! It wouldn't be in the interest of the minority to lose control, now, would it?


Ava Hannah,

I bet BA would be more than thrilled to receive my claim of somewhere around two and three thousand pounds that I have spent on tickets!

So the wages for minimal work are not too bad then?

I have already informed my manager of my possible resignation unless this mess is sorted soon.

Ah ...... cheerio then! But at least it will save you quite a bit on all those expensive ticket purchases.


Duggie Fashion,

Now BA are on the receiving end of a mountain of litigation

Mountain? A bit of an exaggeration, n'est-ce pas?

How disappointed you must all be here.

A bit! It has dragged on. But it won't be long now and BASSA and Unite will be sent well and truly packing.