British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
biteme
"Our union will be putting forward the outcome of the negotiations for us to vote on."
"will"? You'll only get an option to vote on the outcome if BA let UNITE you off the hook tomorrow night by agreeing with UNITE's proposals. If BA don't agree you're stuck with deciding what to do with the vote you already heldm the one for for IA.
"I just hope the few who enjoy debate with their cabin crew colleges" (sic.) "feel the same when the shoe is in the other foot."
You might be right but you'll have to wait a while. Flight Crew agreed their cost savings package last year, their Reps are well into pension discussions and the BALPA members have already had sight of the initial proposals.......how are BASSA's Reps doing with regard to the Pensions issue?
"will"? You'll only get an option to vote on the outcome if BA let UNITE you off the hook tomorrow night by agreeing with UNITE's proposals. If BA don't agree you're stuck with deciding what to do with the vote you already heldm the one for for IA.
"I just hope the few who enjoy debate with their cabin crew colleges" (sic.) "feel the same when the shoe is in the other foot."
You might be right but you'll have to wait a while. Flight Crew agreed their cost savings package last year, their Reps are well into pension discussions and the BALPA members have already had sight of the initial proposals.......how are BASSA's Reps doing with regard to the Pensions issue?
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So the more part timers the cheaper the employees APPEAR to be .
What is the true full-time equivalent number of employees for each of the competitors?
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I think we are all missing the point here. Bashareholder has taken the time to construct a convincing looking spreadsheet and put it online. It is attracting all sorts of outraged huffing and puffing, and has therefore acquired the status of "fact".
That it is complete tosh is recognised by those who wish to see, but what of those grasping at straws to bolster their flagging morale?
This is a classic tactic by BASSA. Put out a suspect, or even totally fictitious "fact" and et the troops get all riled up. Before long no one even dares to question the "fact", it simply becomes the received wisdom - "truth" in la la land.
I wouldn't be surprised if, by tomorrow, some bright spark has argued that cc have already taken a 4.1% pay CUT and therefore further concessions are unnecessary!
That it is complete tosh is recognised by those who wish to see, but what of those grasping at straws to bolster their flagging morale?
This is a classic tactic by BASSA. Put out a suspect, or even totally fictitious "fact" and et the troops get all riled up. Before long no one even dares to question the "fact", it simply becomes the received wisdom - "truth" in la la land.
I wouldn't be surprised if, by tomorrow, some bright spark has argued that cc have already taken a 4.1% pay CUT and therefore further concessions are unnecessary!
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Ancient Observer
AO
I think that was me yesterday post 2116.
It seened a win win for BA and CC but obviously a lose for BASSA
I think that was me yesterday post 2116.
Looking at "Plodding Alongs" list of rules and regs for eurofleet it occurs to me that a decent negotiating team could actually negotiate a pay rise as well as meeting the required cost reductions in exchange for some modern working practices.
New agreements may mean less time for lunch at LHR but you get home earlier, or you do more sectors more efficiently so you have an extra day off. I like many others would, I am sure, rather work harder on the days I came to work in exchange for less days at work. This would obviously suit commuters. How do CC justify only flying 66% of the hours of the pilots?
New agreements may mean less time for lunch at LHR but you get home earlier, or you do more sectors more efficiently so you have an extra day off. I like many others would, I am sure, rather work harder on the days I came to work in exchange for less days at work. This would obviously suit commuters. How do CC justify only flying 66% of the hours of the pilots?
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Chances of a strike are 50/50 according to Unite:
British Airways Union Says Chances of Strike Are Fifty-Fifty - BusinessWeek
British Airways Union Says Chances of Strike Are Fifty-Fifty - BusinessWeek
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dont think so
Bite Me
quote you
``You will hear from cabin crew this weak.
Our union will be putting forward the outcome of the negotiations for us to vote on.``
Weak may be an apt typo!
I think YOU as a BASSA member will hear from your union this WEEK.
Probably on the lines of ``we have offered BA a solution but they have refused to accept or negotiate on this.`` Therefore, following with the dates of the strike.
That is when the use of the word WEAK may well be correct as the strike fails due to lack of support. Traditionally BA crew have failed to back up their votes with the necessary action (apart from a few hard core members always the same faces rather unsurprisingly) and not forgetting WW`s plans to carry on operating.
As for a third vote........ I don`t think so!!
quote you
``You will hear from cabin crew this weak.
Our union will be putting forward the outcome of the negotiations for us to vote on.``
Weak may be an apt typo!
I think YOU as a BASSA member will hear from your union this WEEK.
Probably on the lines of ``we have offered BA a solution but they have refused to accept or negotiate on this.`` Therefore, following with the dates of the strike.
That is when the use of the word WEAK may well be correct as the strike fails due to lack of support. Traditionally BA crew have failed to back up their votes with the necessary action (apart from a few hard core members always the same faces rather unsurprisingly) and not forgetting WW`s plans to carry on operating.
As for a third vote........ I don`t think so!!
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Flight deck crew do not work in exactly the same environment as the cabin crew, that is the difference.
I've flown transatlantic as a pax on the 767 and 777 and there is a tangible difference, a very great difference in how you feel at the end of the journey.
I've flown transatlantic as a pax on the 767 and 777 and there is a tangible difference, a very great difference in how you feel at the end of the journey.
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Reading between the lines, BASSA haven't quite grasped that BA want (and need) £60M savings per year (not just this year and next). Thye can't accept that they were wrong on 'imposition' and WW isn't backing down on that.
I'm beginning to think their will be a 'victory' tomorrow for BASSA - they might have one person back on a jumbo to BKK, SIN, HKG and TYO but how will they spin the imminent introduction of New Fleet and restructured pay deal ???
[The above is totally my assumption, but i can't help think that BASSA are still completely missing the point and would rather not 'loose face' than represent their members correctly. The mind still boggles
]
I'm beginning to think their will be a 'victory' tomorrow for BASSA - they might have one person back on a jumbo to BKK, SIN, HKG and TYO but how will they spin the imminent introduction of New Fleet and restructured pay deal ???
[The above is totally my assumption, but i can't help think that BASSA are still completely missing the point and would rather not 'loose face' than represent their members correctly. The mind still boggles
]
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Yes, perhaps they will rationalise it thus:
It is better for the members in the long run if BASSA survives, so BASSA must do whatever it takes to survive, even if it means selling the members the last turkey in the shop tomorrow evening, and spinning it as a victory.
I believe Stalin used a similar rationale.
It is better for the members in the long run if BASSA survives, so BASSA must do whatever it takes to survive, even if it means selling the members the last turkey in the shop tomorrow evening, and spinning it as a victory.
I believe Stalin used a similar rationale.
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Originally Posted by ArthurScargill
they might have one person back on a jumbo to BKK, SIN, HKG and TYO
The routes that had an extra crew member were the MIA, the MRU daylight 'leisure' routes - you know, the type that LGW crews operated with less crew than LHR already without requiring extra crew. Nonetheless, surely these would be the ones to regain a 15th crew member rather than those lucrative, money spinning routes you happen to reel off?
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Originally Posted by Sussex2
Flight deck crew do not work in exactly the same environment as the cabin crew, that is the difference
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Flight deck crew do not work in exactly the same environment as the cabin crew, that is the difference.
I've flown transatlantic as a pax on the 767 and 777 and there is a tangible difference, a very great difference in how you feel at the end of the journey.
Sussex2
That statement demonstrates an ignorance of our job which is not uncommon behind the cockpit door.
Would you like us benchmarked to the cabin crew also?
I've flown transatlantic as a pax on the 767 and 777 and there is a tangible difference, a very great difference in how you feel at the end of the journey.
Sussex2
That statement demonstrates an ignorance of our job which is not uncommon behind the cockpit door.
Would you like us benchmarked to the cabin crew also?
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Ah, but my experience of being within the cockpit door is limited to the 1-11, a true aviators aircraft, and I loved the time dearly. Oh and yes I forgot, the occasional 707 before that.
No powered controls, naff air conditioning, and paper towels or napkins placed behind the neck when landing, to stop the ample supplies of cold water that sheeted off the roof.
Exactly what benchmark are you referring to? I'd seriously like to know.
No powered controls, naff air conditioning, and paper towels or napkins placed behind the neck when landing, to stop the ample supplies of cold water that sheeted off the roof.
Exactly what benchmark are you referring to? I'd seriously like to know.
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weather map
Many of the post 97 crew at LHR have felt hard done by and feel the union sold them down the river.This is not just a LGW problem it's been on your doorstep at LHR for years now.
As a trainer I get to see a lot of new crew and in 97 they were just glad to have a BA uniform. Actually, most of them don't feel particularly aggrieved but wish they had joined earlier.Regardless, another fleet of people on not only less pay but working to a charter type agreement can not be a desirable way forward from IR perspective. Our IFCE boss has said that 'new fleet' is negotiable if another way can be found to save the required amount and so the pay cut is an attempt to find that saving.
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Originally Posted by ottergirl
This is a mystery to me. How can anyone feel hard done by when they knew what was on their contract when they signed it?
As a trainer I get to see a lot of new crew and in 97 they were just glad to have a BA uniform. Actually, most of them don't feel particularly aggrieved but wish they had joined earlier.
As a trainer I get to see a lot of new crew and in 97 they were just glad to have a BA uniform. Actually, most of them don't feel particularly aggrieved but wish they had joined earlier.
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biteme:
First, your "showing your hand" would have no impact on the negotiations. Unless you're BASSA or Unite its just your opinion.
What's the phrase..."If you're not at the table then you're part of the menu"? Unless you're a BASSA rep or BA executive you're in the same boat I'm in as SLF and shareholder. We're both on the menu.
One of the most interesting things for me throughout this process has been the refusal and/or inability for many BASSA CC to articulate exactly why the imposition and salary freeze are worth striking over. I hear "New Fleet", commentary about other BA employees' salaries, etc., etc., which have nothing to do with this strike vote, but when it comes to specifics regarding what the true problem is and what is seen as a resolution its almost impossible to get an answer.
Its obvious, with their failure to name a strike date, that BASSA is scrambling...but I'm still not sure that their membership understands what the scramble is about.
As for:
Please, everyone has heard, ad nauseum. We're striking, sending our proposals, Tuesday is the day, and on and on...yet BASSA truly does nothing.
I would not be surprised to be reading this thread next Boxing Day and reading BASSA supporter posts that state "That's it, we've had enough now..we're going to vote again..or something.".
Cynical, perhaps.
Diplome
I did not say it was relevant to the issue in hand.
I was just speaking my mind.
What I would settle for is my business. I think that at this sensitive time showing ones hand would not be a wise thing to do.
You will hear from cabin crew this weak.
Our union will be putting forward the outcome of the negotiations for us to vote on.
I hope we will find a common ground and take this company forward.
I just hope the few who enjoy debate with their cabin crew colleges feel the same when the shoe is in the other foot.
I did not say it was relevant to the issue in hand.
I was just speaking my mind.
What I would settle for is my business. I think that at this sensitive time showing ones hand would not be a wise thing to do.
You will hear from cabin crew this weak.
Our union will be putting forward the outcome of the negotiations for us to vote on.
I hope we will find a common ground and take this company forward.
I just hope the few who enjoy debate with their cabin crew colleges feel the same when the shoe is in the other foot.
What's the phrase..."If you're not at the table then you're part of the menu"? Unless you're a BASSA rep or BA executive you're in the same boat I'm in as SLF and shareholder. We're both on the menu.
One of the most interesting things for me throughout this process has been the refusal and/or inability for many BASSA CC to articulate exactly why the imposition and salary freeze are worth striking over. I hear "New Fleet", commentary about other BA employees' salaries, etc., etc., which have nothing to do with this strike vote, but when it comes to specifics regarding what the true problem is and what is seen as a resolution its almost impossible to get an answer.
Its obvious, with their failure to name a strike date, that BASSA is scrambling...but I'm still not sure that their membership understands what the scramble is about.
As for:
You will hear from cabin crew this weak
I would not be surprised to be reading this thread next Boxing Day and reading BASSA supporter posts that state "That's it, we've had enough now..we're going to vote again..or something.".
Cynical, perhaps.