British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: M3 usually!
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It most certainly is NOT a LHR thing. On Eurofleet we have two different fleets of Flight Crew to work with, both Boeing and Airbus and with one or two exceptions on both sides (as in all walks of life) we also get on famously. I have never heard the slightest suggestion of anti-cabin crew feeling uttered by any of them! The thoughts expressed on this forum, under the cloak of anonymity, were a revelation to me also - and I've been with BA 23 years!
Good evening Tiramisu!
Good evening Tiramisu!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it must be a lhr thing as at lgw we tend to get on famously well with the flight crew.Why the difference?
None, actually.
We too, get on famously with our Flight Crew colleagues at LHR. For me CRM is alive and kicking.
It really depends on the individual, I don't think it's base specific, and I've been there 26 years!
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Europe
Age: 53
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why here?
I find, like others here, that to try and generalise the behaviour of a group of some 11,000 people is pointless. I get on fine with my colleagues and have very few complaints about how they work. Some clearly have an issue with flight crew. Some are just rude. Most are not. Pretty much like the rest of society really.
Having said that, I don't agree that they are, as a group, hard done by. I find their agreements difficult to understand and their unwillingness to change (even things that annoy them) through fear of being 'done' by their employer quite odd. I am able to continue a good working relationship with my colleagues without wishing to stand on the picket line singing 'The Red Flag'. We disagree on these issues, it tends not to come up at work and when it does, I try not to comment as I feel it is not appropriate to get into a possibly heated debate in our working environment.
Due to the particular way in which BA is run, we have no common forum on which to discuss things. That's why we come here.
Having said that, I don't agree that they are, as a group, hard done by. I find their agreements difficult to understand and their unwillingness to change (even things that annoy them) through fear of being 'done' by their employer quite odd. I am able to continue a good working relationship with my colleagues without wishing to stand on the picket line singing 'The Red Flag'. We disagree on these issues, it tends not to come up at work and when it does, I try not to comment as I feel it is not appropriate to get into a possibly heated debate in our working environment.
Due to the particular way in which BA is run, we have no common forum on which to discuss things. That's why we come here.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nastiness?
bashareholder
I have looked back at todays posts and feel that you may be being a little oversensitive.
Yes, there are contributers forcefully expressing their views, (on ALL sides),
but surely that is the POINT of this forum - people expressing their opinions in an attempt to collectively arrive at better understanding.
Yes, sometimes people go too far and make claims that cannot be substantiated or suggest that disagreement equates with stupidity, that is for us to watch out for. We must strive for mutual respect and getting closer to the truth.
I have looked back at todays posts and feel that you may be being a little oversensitive.
Yes, there are contributers forcefully expressing their views, (on ALL sides),
but surely that is the POINT of this forum - people expressing their opinions in an attempt to collectively arrive at better understanding.
Yes, sometimes people go too far and make claims that cannot be substantiated or suggest that disagreement equates with stupidity, that is for us to watch out for. We must strive for mutual respect and getting closer to the truth.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: England
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking at "Plodding Alongs" list of rules and regs for eurofleet it occurs to me that a decent negotiating team could actually negotiate a pay rise as well as meeting the required cost reductions in exchange for some modern working practices.
New agreements may mean less time for lunch at LHR but you get home earlier, or you do more sectors more efficiently so you have an extra day off. I like many others would, I am sure, rather work harder on the days I came to work in exchange for less days at work. This would obviously suit commuters. How do CC justify only flying 66% of the hours of the pilots?
Regards
New agreements may mean less time for lunch at LHR but you get home earlier, or you do more sectors more efficiently so you have an extra day off. I like many others would, I am sure, rather work harder on the days I came to work in exchange for less days at work. This would obviously suit commuters. How do CC justify only flying 66% of the hours of the pilots?
Regards
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A brief reality check....
May I just briefly interrupt to make a few points?
1.Flying is a great job. For 37 years I’ve been paid for living out a fantasy - how lucky am I?
2.Flying attracts great people - adventurous, vibrant, fun people that have been a pleasure to work with.
3.For us to enjoy this we need a commercially successful airline
4.Commercial success depends on being competitive
5.To compete we must consider costs - REAL ones.
6.Err, that’s it.....
1.Flying is a great job. For 37 years I’ve been paid for living out a fantasy - how lucky am I?
2.Flying attracts great people - adventurous, vibrant, fun people that have been a pleasure to work with.
3.For us to enjoy this we need a commercially successful airline
4.Commercial success depends on being competitive
5.To compete we must consider costs - REAL ones.
6.Err, that’s it.....
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: london
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correct me if i am wrong...
A 1000 people were happy to leave. If this had been used at the start of the process, would BA (all employees including the CEO) be here now?
Re: They vs We
Its not just ground based office workers. I have worked at LGW on the ground in the front line, in the LGW offices, and up at LHR both in semi-operational and office roles, working with people from every department. And during each role, over the entire 13 years with BA, overwhelmingly all the non CC staff i meet have used "We", and not they.
The exceptions to the rule tending to be the very very long servers who hark back to the "good old days" and resent any change.. hmm, maybe that sounds familiar?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: 35,000 ft
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To Litebulbs, BAshareholder, Sussex2 et al.
Whilst you persist in asking questions, often off thread or irrelevant, can I just clarify for you exactly the position that Unite the Union have placed some 13000 BA cabin crew in since Friday?
They made a statement saying that they did not submit any documents to BA (after a statement earlier that said they had), but that a deadline has been set for 5pm Tuesday. It tells us everything and nothing.
Why have Unite not denied any of the press reports of the 3.4% pay cut? Why have Unite not tried to allay cabin crew fears? Why have they not informed the members BEFORE taking any "final decisions"?
So now we have to sit for 4 days worrying about whether we are going to take a substantial pay cut - worth @ £10000-£20000 depending on salary over the next 10 years or alternatively face industrial action and all that entails - staying at home or crossing a picket line. So - Pay cut vs industrial action. Mmmm - kind of a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea, no?
So please don't come on here with your nonsense about "working in an aluminium tube" "market rates" etc. There are plenty of people out there already working "market rates in an aluminium tube" and very happy they are too. At the moment, 13000 cabin crew are sitting worrying about what fate lies in store for them on Tuesday, when they were, prior to all of this unnecessary stress, more than happy to work in aluminium tubes.
Personally, I hope that I am able to continue working in an aluminium tube, and at the rate Unite are giving it away, I'll be lucky if I earn market rate.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
Whilst you persist in asking questions, often off thread or irrelevant, can I just clarify for you exactly the position that Unite the Union have placed some 13000 BA cabin crew in since Friday?
They made a statement saying that they did not submit any documents to BA (after a statement earlier that said they had), but that a deadline has been set for 5pm Tuesday. It tells us everything and nothing.
Why have Unite not denied any of the press reports of the 3.4% pay cut? Why have Unite not tried to allay cabin crew fears? Why have they not informed the members BEFORE taking any "final decisions"?
So now we have to sit for 4 days worrying about whether we are going to take a substantial pay cut - worth @ £10000-£20000 depending on salary over the next 10 years or alternatively face industrial action and all that entails - staying at home or crossing a picket line. So - Pay cut vs industrial action. Mmmm - kind of a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea, no?
So please don't come on here with your nonsense about "working in an aluminium tube" "market rates" etc. There are plenty of people out there already working "market rates in an aluminium tube" and very happy they are too. At the moment, 13000 cabin crew are sitting worrying about what fate lies in store for them on Tuesday, when they were, prior to all of this unnecessary stress, more than happy to work in aluminium tubes.
Personally, I hope that I am able to continue working in an aluminium tube, and at the rate Unite are giving it away, I'll be lucky if I earn market rate.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: london
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HiFlyer...
Just wanted to say, i do hope that i have the pleasure to work with you one day, or even just have you as part of the team on a day that i am flying out somewhere. Of course, i may do, without ever knowing it is you!
You never fail to renew my faith that there are sensible independant thinkers in our CC community, and for that i thank you personally, and for the impression you give to any public who read this thread.
Of course, i may do, without ever knowing it is you! You never fail to renew my faith that there are sensible independant thinkers in our CC community, and for that i thank you personally, and for the impression you give to any public who read this thread.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have been away so haven't kept myself up to date up 'til now but have heard of the paycut Unite have proposed and Tuesday's deadline.
Isn't it ironic, that BASSA and many crew go on and on and on about the worst thing being New Fleet coming as we will have ''a paycut'' ''be starved of work'' ''lose allowances'' etc etc etc..... Now the union wants all crew (including current crew) a paycut when New Fleet was going to be seperate for future crew. The only things to sort out these issues were really to ensure there was an even distribution of routes, ensuring BA didn't cherry pick routes and also to ensure New Fleet only grew relative to the gaps in manpower - ie. current fleets getting smaller - New Fleet gets bigger at the same size (if that makes sense) plus any growth. Obviously fixed payments, promotions for current crew etc needed to be discussed but now they come out with a paycut for us all!!!
Oh well we shall see on Tuesday. Hopefully it will be a good proposal that saves BA the money, helps BA out but is also not detrimental to the crew community. As I really do not want IA to take place. The only 2 choices in IA is go on strike, or cross a picket line! Not an easy to decision either way really! And of course, even the talk of IA has caused a dramatic reduction in bookings when BA needs it least - an actual strike will be even worse!
Fingers crossed anyway!
Isn't it ironic, that BASSA and many crew go on and on and on about the worst thing being New Fleet coming as we will have ''a paycut'' ''be starved of work'' ''lose allowances'' etc etc etc..... Now the union wants all crew (including current crew) a paycut when New Fleet was going to be seperate for future crew. The only things to sort out these issues were really to ensure there was an even distribution of routes, ensuring BA didn't cherry pick routes and also to ensure New Fleet only grew relative to the gaps in manpower - ie. current fleets getting smaller - New Fleet gets bigger at the same size (if that makes sense) plus any growth. Obviously fixed payments, promotions for current crew etc needed to be discussed but now they come out with a paycut for us all!!!
Oh well we shall see on Tuesday. Hopefully it will be a good proposal that saves BA the money, helps BA out but is also not detrimental to the crew community. As I really do not want IA to take place. The only 2 choices in IA is go on strike, or cross a picket line! Not an easy to decision either way really! And of course, even the talk of IA has caused a dramatic reduction in bookings when BA needs it least - an actual strike will be even worse!
Fingers crossed anyway!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Netherlands
Age: 58
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And here is the real BASSA supporters talk...
But do click on the "in cache" link below the results to the right of the green link.
But do click on the "in cache" link below the results to the right of the green link.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow, that's strong stuff on crewforum.
And I assume only the tip of tip of the iceberg.
The venom suggests that it wouldn't matter what was offered to BASSA, the bitterness is too deep.
I just hope that they are just a small hardcore, as there is on any forum.
I'd be a bit concerned that people with such feelings were bringing them to work!
And I assume only the tip of tip of the iceberg.
The venom suggests that it wouldn't matter what was offered to BASSA, the bitterness is too deep.
I just hope that they are just a small hardcore, as there is on any forum.
I'd be a bit concerned that people with such feelings were bringing them to work!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: M3 usually!
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I have had time to read most of the conjecture as to what may or may not have been put on the table and I have some thoughts.
As I understand the 3.4% pay cut is/could be designed to replace 'new-fleet' not the reduction in crew. If that is the case, I think there are some advantages.
a) It hits the highest paid the most, the top 5000 on the old pay scales. (3.4% of not much is 'not much')
b) It could be recouped over the next few years given the right inflation conditions (unlike lost T&C's)
c) It isn't that far away from the mind-set that BALPA applied to their reductions.
d) The trojan horse that potentially is 'new-fleet' will no longer exist. (As we have learnt from LGW, it is dangerous to have a separate group of people who feel hard done by and will later say they were sold down the river by the union/the existing crew.)
e) There will be savings through not having yet another fleet running on its own agreement and not being able to cross-over the crew.
f) We could all get on with the business of flying planes.
Waiting for someone to tell me the disadvantages naturally but I am of the opinion that it could be the lesser of several evils.
P.S. I know some of you will say that I would say that because I am a CSD but this is not about crewing levels as I understand it and I always did work on a trolley! The crew reductions on short-haul in % terms are much greater than on long-haul!
Discuss!
Just some of my thoughts and not that of my employer.
As I understand the 3.4% pay cut is/could be designed to replace 'new-fleet' not the reduction in crew. If that is the case, I think there are some advantages.
a) It hits the highest paid the most, the top 5000 on the old pay scales. (3.4% of not much is 'not much')
b) It could be recouped over the next few years given the right inflation conditions (unlike lost T&C's)
c) It isn't that far away from the mind-set that BALPA applied to their reductions.
d) The trojan horse that potentially is 'new-fleet' will no longer exist. (As we have learnt from LGW, it is dangerous to have a separate group of people who feel hard done by and will later say they were sold down the river by the union/the existing crew.)
e) There will be savings through not having yet another fleet running on its own agreement and not being able to cross-over the crew.
f) We could all get on with the business of flying planes.
Waiting for someone to tell me the disadvantages naturally but I am of the opinion that it could be the lesser of several evils.
P.S. I know some of you will say that I would say that because I am a CSD but this is not about crewing levels as I understand it and I always did work on a trolley! The crew reductions on short-haul in % terms are much greater than on long-haul!
Discuss!
Just some of my thoughts and not that of my employer.
Last edited by ottergirl; 8th Mar 2010 at 08:33.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: My views - Not my employer!
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ottergirl.
Many of the post 97 crew at LHR have felt hard done by and feel the union sold them down the river.This is not just a LGW problem it's been on your doorstep at LHR for years now.
Many of the post 97 crew at LHR have felt hard done by and feel the union sold them down the river.This is not just a LGW problem it's been on your doorstep at LHR for years now.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
a) It hits the highest paid the most, the top 5000 on the old pay scales. (3.4% of not much is 'not much')
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: glos
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I understand the 3.4% pay cut is/could be designed to replace 'new-fleet' not the reduction in crew. If that is the case, I think there are some advantages.
It is about breaking the stranglehold BASSA has on the operation.
Over the entire 12 years I have been in BA I have never, not once, seen BASSA use their considerable power for the good of the customer, whether or not at the expense of the crew. There have been times without number when the opportunity to "go the extra mile" has been open, yet the answer has ALWAYS been "No".
This mindset has been amply demonstrated in the last 14 months (even attracting comment from a High Court judge.)
BASSA have now handed WW a mandate to utterly annihilate both the union and the attitude. He will gladly use it.
He has watched BASSA fall into every single elephant trap that they could, even digging a few themselves! Now they have finally put themselves in a position where the only way out is to lose, and lose heavily. I mean, how incompetent do you have to be to get your members to go on strike because they are demanding a pay CUT?
To quote Napoleon
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake".
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Warwick
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was talking to a good neighbour of mine (BA employee) at the weekend, who knows that I fly extensively as part of my job - I'm in IT whilst I work in the Aerospace and Defence sector I'm not part of the airline industry.
I recounted at that we have a sales conference in Portugal next month - jsu under 1,000 attendees - we have specifically advised against booking BA based on the instability in the company. I'm sure my employer isn't alone - this dispute is in the process of destroying BA.
I recounted at that we have a sales conference in Portugal next month - jsu under 1,000 attendees - we have specifically advised against booking BA based on the instability in the company. I'm sure my employer isn't alone - this dispute is in the process of destroying BA.