British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI

[Papillon]

Litebulbs, there is no set figure or calculation that provides you with market rate. It is whatever the market will bear. It is abundantly clear that those on old contracts are paid miles above market rate. The question you need to ask is whether those who pay less (including BA on more recent contracts) have any difficulty in recruiting and retaining staff of the requisite quality. The answer is quite clearly no.

[spin_doctor]

Litebulbs,

Not sure what you're getting at here. Do Virgin and Bmi attract BA employees? Well, no, they pay half what BA does. Would you leave your job as cabin crew based at LHR to work as cabin crew at LHR but for half the money?

[cym]

Litebulbs

9/11 is not comparable - premium traffic recovered fairly quickly. This aint gonna happen now.

So, tell me, as someone close to a union. Should BA accept Unite's offer, based on salary reduction for all (which I dont think they will), should such an offer be subject to agreement by the rank and file membership? I they are Unite are in the guano

[Tiramisu]

I assume you are normally the SCCM, so probably very onside with regards to getting the passengers from A to B.

Nevermind,
I see it as a priority always, that is getting our customers from A to B.
I agree, it's always the Captain and the SCCM that set the tone of the day.

Just wondering, how often do you see CC pointing out that if we are ... late, it attracts an extra payment.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying it happens

That I won't deny, does happen.
However a few years ago we were reminded not to hint to your goodselves about the extra minute or two triggering lunch or dinner. I personally find it embarassing and refrain from doing so.
Having said that, an extra payment generated due to a delay always puts a smile on all our faces, mine included.

I'm BA cabin crew and the above are my personal views and not those of my employer.

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Papillon

Litebulbs, there is no set figure or calculation that provides you with market rate. It is whatever the market will bear. It is abundantly clear that those on old contracts are paid miles above market rate. The question you need to ask is whether those who pay less (including BA on more recent contracts) have any difficulty in recruiting and retaining staff of the requisite quality. The answer is quite clearly no.

How can you say that their is no figure for market rate, but then a rate of pay is miles above what you cannot quantify?

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by cym

9/11 is not comparable - premium traffic recovered fairly quickly. This aint gonna happen now.

So, tell me, as someone close to a union. Should BA accept Unite's offer, based on salary reduction for all (which I dont think they will), should such an offer be subject to agreement by the rank and file membership? I they are Unite are in the guano

I have not seen any offer yet. However, I would expect the offer to be made to the membership to vote on. This, in my opinion, will be where Unite could fail.

[Papillon]

How can you say that their is no figure for market rate, but then a rate of pay is miles above what you cannot quantify?

I don't recall saying it couldn't be quantified, I said there is no set figure or calculation that provides it, because you seem to want a scientific formula. It's rather peculiar to try to assert that cabin crew earning in excess of £50,000 a year is market rate when they couldn't earn anywhere close to it elsewhere. You've been provided with examples from other carriers at LHR, denying obvious reality is somewhat strange.

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Papillon

I don't recall saying it couldn't be quantified, I said there is no set figure or calculation that provides it, because you seem to want a scientific formula. It's rather peculiar to try to assert that cabin crew earning in excess of £50,000 a year is market rate when they couldn't earn anywhere close to it elsewhere. You've been provided with examples from other carriers at LHR, denying obvious reality is somewhat strange.

Did either of those carriers earn the profits that BA did, through the 00's?

[Hotel Mode]

Because Litebulbs, you havent formed cogent argument (on this subject, not others). You ignore the valid reality that market rate is what the market will support, instead choosing to avoid the argument in favour of semantics.

So, why is the market rate not the rate at which BA can recruit and retain quality staff?

Its all pretty pointless anyhow as this industrial dispute isnt about pay.

[Papillon]

Did either of those carriers earn the profits that BA did, through the 00's?

Not remotely relevant to anything.

[cym]

Litebulbs

Firstly I would have to say that you have every right to post your views on here without being 'had a go at'. Debate is good and may help move this sorry mess forward if BASSA are observing (which I am sure they are). Oops - sorry too late!

I always read your posts with interest but may not always agree with them.

Now definition of market rate; how about 'a reumeration package at which a company can attract and retain staff with a suitable skills and experience package that are aligned with the future wellbeing of both staff members and the company'?

I so Virgin are doing ok on that front, Wouldn't you agree?

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Hotel Mode

Because Litebulbs, you havent formed cogent argument (on this subject, not others). You ignore the valid reality that market rate is what the market will support, instead choosing to avoid the argument in favour of semantics.

So, why is the market rate not the rate at which BA can recruit and retain quality staff?

Its all pretty pointless anyhow as this industrial dispute isnt about pay.

So that makes it ok then. Clearly I do not agree with you, so what should I call you?

[tomkins]

So what would be market rate for a CSD with 25 years in the company?

[Papillon]

Tomkins

That's a good question. Virgin are 25 years old now, what do they pay?

[HasFlyed]

Market Rate

It is frustrating to some that there is no quick and easy way of coming up with a figure.
The market rate now is not the same as last month let alone last year.
A good comparison that is closer to home, (pun - sorry!), is house valuation. Yes, it is easy to get someone to give you a valuation at any point in time but the reality is that you get what a buyer is willing to pay at a particular time in competition with others in the prevailing set of market conditions.
Having said all that, most of us are able to make a pretty good guess.
Nuf sed?

[Hotel Mode]

So what would be market rate for a CSD with 25 years in the company?

Well once you're in, I personally think you should get what you signed up for.

[Classic]

The same as would be required to recruit any other sccm in another company.

[bashareholder]

I am amazed that BA has any customers at all judging by the nastiness that it's employees show toward each other on this public thread - can I ask a very simple question?

Why do the BA flight crew on here demean their fellow workers so much? How on earth can you work together as a team when you quite clearly have no respect for the people at the forefront of BA's customer service?

[wiggy]

"shareholder". I think if you read the whole thread carefully you will find few, if any pilots, are attempting to demean our colleagues. Many of us do, however, have real difficulties coming to terms with the arguments and logic being used by their Union, BASSA.

[Nevermind]

Mr Shareholder (& employee perhaps?)

I think you'll find on Crewforum that flight crew are perceived in a particularly negative fashion (is that diplomatic enough?) .
I make an enormous effort to get on with the whole crew, and build a team. That is not often reciprocated.