British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V

[MissM]

Albert Salmon

No, we won't.

It's your decision.

As I have written before, my company will no longer use its travel budget on a doubtful and erratic airline; there are plenty of others out there that will deliver.

What exactly do you mean by doubtful and erratic?

[tocamak]

and then they change by -30%

Now perhaps in depths of this thread there is a clear explanation of how this would happen but to the general traveller it is not obvious so perhaps a re-stating might be possible.

[Albert Salmon]

What exactly do you mean by doubtful and erratic?

TwoTone Blue's last posting (see above) exactly reflects my views.

MissM and her ilk appear hell-bent on destroying British Airways. Until that tendency is eliminated business passengers will avoid BA like syphilis or the plague.

[Tiramisu]

Miss M,
Wake up for goodness sake! You calling BA erratic and doubtful is precisely what's driving customers like Albert salmon and Two-Tone-Blue away!

Watersidewonker,
In case you didn't realise, BA is losing money! We have just announced a 3.7 billion pension deficit, wake up and smell the coffee please!

[romans44]

Please Romans44,get with the programme

I think Winstonsmith is right, last time I used staff travel the CSD came down to me in row 53 and explained my usual first class seat had been taken by her husband and the 79 year old mother of one of the crew

Now, Roman44 back to you picking and choosing exchange rates that suit your argument. You see you tended to ignore the fact that your Union (and ours) don't really like to use exchange rates on the day since it doesn't suit our purposes when trying negotiate with the IR over the taxation of our subsistance allowances, that is of course if your subject to UK tax

Da dog, sorry for the delay in replying, been away on a trip.
Sadly you don't seem to get my point, I am not talking about exchange rates but I am trying to point out the fact that people keep comparing us with no flag carries while BA is a flag carrier and therefore, in my opinion, should be compared with other flag carriers. Can you at least agree with that?
You have not replied to my question.
May I ask you, again, whether you work for BA or not?
The reason why I'd like to know, is because you seem to know quite a bit about BA and yet, in some cases, you don't seem to know what is going on.
I'd say you are a pilot as you say ' my usual first class seat' but you could also be a manager from Waterside, are you?
I am just curious that's all.

[MissM]

MissM and her ilk appear hell-bent on destroying British Airways. Until that tendency is eliminated business passengers will avoid BA like syphilis or the plague.

Nobody wants to destroy British Airways. Possibly WW.

It's about protecting your lifehood and your terms and conditions which your union has fought very hard for to achieve. I can't see anything wrong with that and won't apologize for it either. If only other people could only see beyond and realise what WW wants to do.

[MissM]

Miss M,
Wake up for goodness sake! You calling BA erratic and doubtful is precisely what's driving customers like Albert salmon and Two-Tone-Blue away!

Blame it on the jetlag! I left out a word or two but have re-edited what I wrote.

[doishquattroserche]

Trying to take a step back from the points being made here ,any reasonable person should be able at least ,to identify with the employer and individual crewmembers . Can we all see that the company needs to cut costs to survive? Can we also agree with ,the concept of trying to fight to keep your terms and conditions ? Can we identify with mutual distrust between BA and BASSA? I can.
Are we not seeing the unfolding of globalisation here in the UK? We have a very high cost country ,with high levels of direct and indirect taxation .We also compete in a global industry ,where staff need to be rewarded with far less to afford themselves a reasonable quality of life in other parts of the world.We also have a relatively high level of expectation here in the UK ,this will need to be "managed" down.
The arguement about what pilots earn is slightly irrelivant ,but as it happens they are pretty much rewarded at "worldwide" market rate. So what? That may reduce in the future ,it's no good camparing BA ccrew with pilots when it suits ,and not when it doesn't.
The current unwinding of globalisation is going to see a drastic drop in lifestyles of "legacy" economies ,which have promised their citizens "rights" such as "free" healthcare/schools etc. We can no longer afford such luxuries and have become bloated and indebted(both individually and nationally) .We are seeing the adjustments unfold,and it's an ugly,clumsy process.
Any UK employed citized can look foreward to a reduction in their quality of life . Pilots/cabib crew/shop worker it matters not but it IS happening as we speak. None of us are immune to it.
Tin foil hat on!

[Buter]

Business travellers in Jersey will stay with BA due to the schedule, aircraft capacity, the ability to make up the schedule after large scale disruption by utilising larger aircraft and the business/club lounges.

Corporate travel assistants would, of course, be well advised to avoid booking during known strike windows - other than that, saying that the island's companies and financial institutions will be avoiding BA until further notice is pure cr@p. The alternatives to BA, Aviation Beauport not withstanding, are not really suitable for corporate travel, IHMO (you may chose to argue this point but it is merely my opinion based on facts and experiences flying on and off this rock for far longer than I would care to remember).

Feel free to run our company down. When the worst happens and BA shuts down you can bask in your superior knowledge whilst you try and decide between betting your important meeting in London on a Dash-8 or a Shorts 360.

By all means, let your views be known here, good or bad. However, I can't help but think that there is something seriously wrong with 2 different people who claim to be Jersey businessmen chosing to spend their (presumably) valuable free time on a pilot forum. Sad, really.

Enjoy the debate, I'm going to the beach.

Buter

[Tiramisu]

Blame it on the jetlag! I left out a word or two but have re-edited what I wrote.

Miss M,

Will do, easily done.

I disagree that WW is trying to destroy BA, BASSA are and have done just that with the last proposed strike for 12 days over Christmas.
You only have to read this forum to see how many customers are taking their business elsewhere, never mind the ones we're not aware about.
The point is the customer has a choice and sadly BA is not that choice.

The changes that BA proposed as I have mentioned several times are reasonable and I accept them. Other employers are not and would not be as generous. We should consider ourselves lucky that we've got off lightly.

I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my views and not those of my employer's.

[pvmw]

MissM:-
Nobody wants to destroy British Airways. Possibly WW.

What an absolutely absurd and stupid statement. Why on earth would WW want to destroy BA??

This seems to fit the bill:-

par·a·noi·a (pr-noi)
n.
1. A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others.

seems pretty apposite to me!!

[Strimmerdriver]

WSW

Can someone tell me if BA flight crew would be prepared to work for the same wages as Wizz Air pilots

If required then yes because 70% of current is better than 100% of nothing with a bankrupt employer.

[Ancient Observer]

Solution?

I cannot see a way through this. In the 20-30 recent pages, no-one has come up with a way of bringing these BA and Bassa folk together.

I think it will be down to power, and the breaking of either the Co., or the TU.


No solution possible?
Hiflyer, and others who would like a solution.

Some posts ago, Henky came up with "Getting to Yes", a book from the Harvard Negotiating Project, which shows folk how to negotiate. It is very good, with some great tips.

However, to "negotiate" requires two groups who want to reach a solution.

As their own behaviour shows that Bassa do not want a solution, the "getting to yes" technique does not work. That's when you need to get out the original works by Karrass. (Google his org). All of us with 30+ years of negotiating experience have our copy of the "Karrass tapes" hidden away somewhere.

Karras and others do actually understand what Power is. If your opponent does not want to negotiate to reach a solution, I'm afraid that you have to set out to destroy them. The early Karrass courses taught this. Other negotiators with experience of cold war Russia/USA negotiations also understood this.

You should expect BA to give Bassa perhaps one more chance of a negotiated settlement. Failing that, it will have to be a fight to the end, by all available means. Either BA will win by destroying Bassa, or Bassa will "win" by destroyng BA..............and thus making themselves unemployable.

No other solution is possible.

Unfortunately, Unite, which knows all this stuff, does not seem to have the power over Bassa to make them understand. Plus, Unite's own internal politics make being "strict" with Bassa just about impossible. (Years ago, Jack Jones of the T & G gave too much power to local units compared to the centre).

Only the lawyers will get rich!

[MissM]

I disagree that WW is trying to destroy BA, BASSA are and have done just that with the last proposed strike for 12 days over Christmas.

What exactly has WW achieved since he took on the post as CEO? BA has taken a financial impact because of his actions including T5, fuel and all that. Look at what he has done to our service. It's laughable and anything but competetive.

What did WW achieve with EI? The airlined survived but he turned it into a low-cost airline. Is this what he will do to BA?

The changes that BA proposed as I have mentioned several times are reasonable and I accept them.

[Tiramisu]

Ancient Observer,

There is a way forward.
BASSA could send out letters to their members listing the changes proposed by BA. The members would then be required to tick Yes or No to what's acceptable to them.
Just like the strike Ballot, everything would be counted and the least favourable changes then presented to BA with a view to discussion and negotiating a reasonable workable solution on both sides to move forward.

However it's up to the members to suggest this if anyone here dares to. Miss M, romans44, watersidewonker and Fume Event, please be my guests.

I resigned from Amicus/BASSA, UNITE and am unable to suggest this to them. I will however, ask some of my colleagues to propose this idea as a way forward. There has to be a solution otherwise we're all doomed, all of us.

I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my views and not those of my employer's.

[MissM]

What an absolutely absurd and stupid statement.

Not as absurd and stupid as your wannabe diagnosis.

[Tiramisu]

What exactly has WW achieved since he took on the post as CEO? BA has taken a financial impact because of his actions including T5, fuel and all that. Look at what he has done to our service. It's laughable and anything but competetive.

Miss M,

What's laughable is your inability to have a grasp of the present economic climate and the financial situation BA is in. BA may not be as competitive in terms of our product as result of our cost savings which had to be made, but our schedule is one if not the main reason why people fly with us. Selling BA short here will do you and and the rest of us in BA no favours.
As to what Willie Walsh has done, BA is still standing thanks to him and you still have a job, that very thing you are trying to save and BASSA destroy.

I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my views and not those of my employer's.

[Ancient Observer]

Tiramisu,
whilst I respect you and your moderate colleagues, (HiF, JSL, GG etc), what you suggest would only work if Bassa want to do it.

The evidence that I see is that they do not want to do it.
It is just about Power for them.
In which case, BA's only option is to break their power.

There are lots of ways of breaking their power, but the obvious one, which has been very common in the UK - Shell, ICI, Unilever, BP amongst others have used it - is to give the 90 days notice and to ask EVERY BA CC member to re-apply for thier job.

I've worked through this, and I hated it, but it provides the sort of solution that BA currently need.

[Tiramisu]

The evidence that I see is that they do not want to do it.
It is just about Power for them.
In which case, BA's only option is to break their power.

There are lots of ways of breaking their power, but the obvious one, which has been very common in the UK - Shell, ICI, Unilever, BP amongst others have used it - is to give the 90 days notice and to ask EVERY BA CC member to re-apply for thier job.

I've worked through this, and I hated it, but it provides the sort of solution that BA currently need.

Ancient Observer,

I agree it's just about Power and you only have to read the posts by the die hard militants who are full of bravado here yet are scared of that very power called BASSA to suggest anything else.

SOSR is something I fear and the last thing any of us want. I will lose as I'm an old contract CSD on Eurofleet.
The difference is I recognise changes have to be made, but what it will do is sieve out the vermin.
In that case, I would say bring it on as I'm ready to put my money where my mouth is.

I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above are my views and not those of my employer's.

[MissM]

What's laughable is your inability to have a grasp of the present economic climate and the financial situation BA is in.

My inability to have a grasp of the present economic climate and the financial situation BA is in? I understand there is a recession and financial crisis and that certain things would need to change.

Those things should be agreed through negotiations and not impositions.

As to what Willie Walsh has done, BA is still standing thanks to him and you still have a job, that very thing you are trying to save and BASSA destroy.

Are you saying that WW has saved from BA from going bankrupt? Maybe if we had another CEO BA wouldn't have had to face all those fines and not to mention how much that T5 last year cost.

WW also set the bar when he earlier this year said that BA was fighting for its survival. Not a very clever move if you ask me.
gl