British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V

[anotherthing]

Miss M - your post #481, my bold.

From my experience passengers have short memory. They may abandon BA for the time being but sooner or later they will come back. If they don't, it's their choice. I can't do anything but to my best at work. A week and a half ago people were furious over crew and three days ago BA did CDG and GVA with chock-a-block 747 and 777

If that's not inferring that you believe that passengers booked in the time period between 'being furious' with BA and the flight, then I don't know what is. Can't understand why saying this makes me 'out of line'.

I was merely pointing out tha fact that your argument above was either completely rubbish or that you didn't actually understand what you had written.

It seems to be a common trait though that some CC (not all by any means), cannot understand the nuances of the English language etc. For example the phrase 'illegal ballot' seems to be another stumbling block for some

[pvmw]

MissM..... let me put this as simply as I can.

Until BASSA are toast, BA has a workforce that are more concerned with the care and convenience of their customers than bickering about sticking rigidly to agreements, and I am convinced that I am no longer treated as a pawn in a union power struggle I WILL NOT be using BA. You need to understand that BA does not exist for YOUR convenience.

From the sentiments being expressed by some very frustrated ex-customers on this forum I am not alone. Your customers are draining away to your competition. Once there and if satisfied, why on earth would they ever bother to return?

The reality of market economics appears to pass you by. Lose your customers and YOU will be out of a job. Can you not understand that? Is it too difficult to grasp?

Having "BRITISH" in the company name won't save you. I'm sure the workers at British Steel, British Coal, British Leyland, British Shipbuilders thought just as you do. Where do you think they work now?

[Juan Tugoh]

The argument that says "we cannot exceed our industrial agreements under any circumstances" goes to the heart of the problem at BA.

The Industrial Agreements over duty hours are there to PROTECT you from the more extreme parts of the law. They are nothing to do with safety - that is looked after by the CAA and their regulations. It is perfectly true that you cannot be FORCED to go beyond your IAs, as this would be a breach of your contract by the company. Tne main purpose of the IAs is to cover the planning of your rostered duties.

On the day, provided that you ELECT to operate outside your IA but within the bounds of the CAA regulations you have done nothing wrong. The only problem would be if someone had forced you to operate outside your IA, in that case your union would have a beef with the company.

BASSA or indeed BALPA do not have the right to dictate to you that you cannot exceed your IA on the day - that is a personal decision. The point is you don't have to go beyond IA, but if it is to your personal benefit to exceed your IA, no union rep can force you to a particular course of action. Unions are voluntary - there is no closed shop at BA and BASSA have no sanction against you should you defy them. They cannot fine you or discipline you in any way. If they tried you would simply leave.

Commanders discretion can be exercised without consultation by the captain on the day UP TO the limits of either the IA or the CAA rules whichever is the more restrictive. The commander needs to take account of the state of the crew with regard to fatigue in order to assess whether the extension is sensible and to what extent they wish to use that discretion. This does not mean asking whether or not anyone is willing or indeed happy to use discretion - this is purely the commanders decision

[wobble2plank]

There are a couple of fundamental questions that need to be answered in this debate.

1: Why didn't BASSA engage fully in negotiation when they had the chance and why does Unite think that another round of negotiations will be any use when BASSA have already fired their IA gun without effect? BASSA stonewalled in the first round of negotiations by refusing to discuss anything outside of reducing CR. That included the measures the company wanted to take to increase productivity to reduce CR!

2: Why does BASSA feel it is in a different position to all of the other Unions who successfully negotiated agreed changes to their terms and conditions prior to the 30th June deadline in order to protect their jobs?

3: Why does the constant Crew Forum/BASSA Forum gripe of 'I couldn't live on that' and 'slave labor' come into the current argument when the BASSA ballot was purely about imposition and that the current imposed changes, whilst being obviously highly workable to the majority of our well motivated crews, only involved changes to manning levels on aircraft with no change to current pay levels/allowances?

4: IF BASSA are aiming at prepping their membership for the advent of 'New Fleet' then they should take that up honestly with the company and not hide behind this thin veneer of 'imposition'. The company has already agreed to protect current crew pay levels when they recruit to New Fleet. Is it that bad?

So, no rhetoric, but just honest answers please to overriding questions that cast a shadow over this debate.

[7Heroes]

I have always found the IA generous enough.19.15 for long range and 16.30 for non long range if I remember rightly.Scheme can be extended with Captains discretion up to these limits.Quite often it is the pilots who have the more limiting hours.
And if you can`t complete a flight in 19.15 /16.30 then I really think it is time to go home or take a rest.Maybe it is more limiting in short haul but then you are closer to home and available standbys.

[ottergirl]

YVR

Excerpt from BA Vancouver flight yesterday.
Crazed passenger restrained after punching female crew member in face and breaking her tooth, called male crew member an f****** poof, then tried to open aircraft doors to 'let his chickens out'. Crew hand-cuffed man and he managed to rip the seat off of its mooring in the process.

Seems the season of goodwill doesn't understand that crew are primarily for serving food and drink. Well done to all the crew involved in that incident!

[911slf]

ottergirl - a timely reminder

You are quite right to point out that on rare occasions CC are called upon to deal with extreme situations. Those involved have my sympathy.

It is also the case that staff who work in jobcentres (of which I have first hand experience both sides of the counter), and in shops, restaurants, post offices etc. also have such experiences. Indeed in post offices staff sometimes have to face people with shotguns.

If there were a pot of money to be divided between BA CC and all others who sometimes find themselves on the receiving end of violence, how would you divide it?

[midman]

Originally Posted by 7Heroes

I have always found the IA generous enough.Scheme can be extended with Captains discretion up to these limits.

No it can't. Discretion has nothing to do with industrial limits. Both you and MissM seem to misunderstand this.

I had a similar case in Narita when we were delayed and asked the CSD for the hours the cabin crew could work to. She said that with full discretion we could work up to the industrial limit of 19.15. I said she needed to recalculate, as I had calculated about 16.30 for the cabin crew, but she simply wouldn't believe me.
That's a CSD confused about the blurred lines between industrial and legal limits. No wonder the barrack room lawyers down the back hold so much sway during disruption.

Originally Posted by 7Heroes

Quite often it is the pilots who have the more limiting hours.

Said without a hint of irony!

[Jockster]

Lets Start Again

A lot of Cabin Crew are clearly unhappy at being cabin crew - perhaps they have changed...perhaps the job has changed......
......either way why not announce the termination of all CC contracts with 90 days notice then re-interview everyone to see if they are still suitable for the job and offer the successful candidates New Fleet contracts (I suggest these are 'rolling' 12 month contracts to stop the these problems arising in the future). Unsuccesful candidates could be offered other more suitable roles within the Company or allowed to see out their remaining 90 days.

The Company will have lots of support from the public as it is being seen to tackle the militant crew who threatened their Christmas and pleasing the City.

The Company could advertise at the same time for experienced crew from other airlines - I'm sure the take-up will be massive.

The result is at a stroke: -

Industrial Limits - GONE
High CC Costs - GONE
Militants - GONE
BASSA - GONE
Control - Back to the Company
Pension Costs - REDUCED
Chain of Command - Captain, SFO, FO, Cabin Crew. (like every other airline)

Can't see a downside myself. Can anyone else? - I can see this being announced on 2nd Jan 2010 by the Company - I would because it solves so may problems. Christmas has been saved and the 1st quarter is always weak anyway - so a perfect time to sweep clean.

[7Heroes]

Midman

When I did my command course many years ago a thoeritical scenario was proposed and we were all asked to calculate the maximum duty hours.Needless to say we got about 10 different answers.
I usually ask ops,the copilot and the csd to calculate the hours and then start from there.
Scheme is usually between 12-14 hours and it is this that can be extended towards the max industrial limit of 16.30/19.15.After scheme has been extended it is this figure versus industrial whichever is more limiting that is the figure that is used.
Industrial can never be extended for cabin crew.And to be honest a 19.15 hour duty day is long enough as far as I am concerned.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

As an outsider, it all seems horrendously complicated. Is there any wonder there are conflicts between CAA, BA, BALPA and BASSA 'rules/contracts'?

I know one size doesn't fit all, but there would seem to be a good case [whilst BA is emerging from the ashes] to try and rationalise all these different standards and 'practices'.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Ouch - OK, I only asked.

FFS.

[DP.]

Originally Posted by MissM

I wouldn't worry if I were you. You will still be flying next year. And the year after. And the year after.

I was out for dinner with my uncle yesterday evening. He is a director of a company with a number of subsidiaries. The company uses BA almost exclusively for travel - he personally takes 2 to 4 LH trips in a typical month, mostly to the USA.

We got chatting about the issues at BA, and he said that for the foreseeable future, the company are not booking travel with BA, because they cannot risk having their business disrupted by a strike.

A number of comments on this thread show that his company is not unique when it comes to this. When will your union realise the damage that they are continuing to cause British Airways with their present course of action? How much more business do you think the company can afford to lose like this?

So whilst you may be steadfast in your belief that British Airways cannot go under, I think it is quite obvious to most observers that this is a ridiculous, not to mention dangerous, assertion.

[Cymmon]

I donīt fully understand why itīs come to strike threats etc when itīs clear that British Airways totally value its employees.

As they state:

We strive to provide a working environment that motivates, engages, supports and develops our colleagues.
The aim of our workplace pillar is to encourage our colleagues to be committed to Corporate Responsibility - after all it's our colleagues that make up the airline and we need them onboard One Destination.



This commitment will not only help us deliver a great place to work, it will also ensure our customer service is the envy of the industry.
The topics covered by our workplace pillar include:

• How we fly - Responsible colleague
• What we buy - Tools to do the job, and
• What we fly - Invest in people

Our goals across these areas are:

• 50% of our colleagues donate money to charity every year through 'Pay Roll Giving'
• 50% of our colleagues donate time to charities and communities every year
• 75% of colleagues committed to delivering our corporate responsibility goals by 2010

A responsible attitude from both sides would help?

[101917]

There are 2 legacy state run airlines currently in meltdown.

The cause of one is the majority of CC and the other the majority of FD.

The common denominator – their union’s.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ travelandtrouble ...

CAP 371
The Avoidance of Fatigue In Aircrews
These are the full CAA rules on which each airlines "scheme" is based.

My bold in your quote ... CAP 371 is actually entitled:

CAP 371
The Avoidance of Fatigue In Aircrews
Guide to Requirements

Guide or Rules?
Ooops - are you a BASSA person, perchance?
Or did you just fail to copy that last bit of text by accident?


Still, it's lovely to read a 2004 document from 45-59 Kingsway. Oh how I miss those years spent in the 15-story Polo-Mint ... not

[Far-Ted]

Originally Posted by Jockster

......either way why not announce the termination of all CC contracts with 90 days notice then re-interview everyone to see if they are still suitable for the job and offer the successful candidates New Fleet contracts.

Surprisingly as cabin crew I agree, but only If Bassa are silly enough to threaten BA with another ballot.

I've been very surprised that Willie didn't use this during the last ballot, if the airline has to endure another ballot and then possible industrial strife why shouldn't Willie get his entire wish list. Why go through the hassle of industrial unrest and the effect on the airline for this watered down, washed out imposition that we currently have on offer.

Sorry to pro-BA CC in airline (of which I'm one!) - but unfortunately we have been let down by a few blinkered, loud mouths.

It's time to play hard ball with Bassa - Miss Malone and her team of Kitchen fitters are just not realistic - I want a job this time next year!

[midman]

7heroes
my point was that some sccms think captain's discretion on a long range sector allows the duty day to be extended to the maximum industrial limit, even if that's beyond the revised scheme limit. Honestly, I've been there.

In any case, I don't try to do bassa's work for them. I don't bust a gut to find out cc industrial limits. If someone presents me with their limits I will use them. My priority is to keep the operation going, within legal limits.

[HiFlyer14]

Thank you to all the customers that replied to my earlier questions about what we could do. I can only apologise on behalf of some of my colleagues if you are not getting some of the things onboard that you should - quality service, juice rounds, etc. I sincerely believe that if we could get rid of this Union, we would also get rid of those terrible attitudes and therefore we could be great again. Perhaps you the customers can advise how we can achieve that?

Please remember that the BASSA faithful: Fume, Lurker, MissM etc are sent on here from the other forums simply to stir. Debating whether someone can leave D5 on a 747 is irrelevant to this thread, and is simply causing the thread to go round in circles.

Meanwhile, we are getting nowhere and there is a huge problem that is not going away. This union is at worst going to destroy this company and at best is going to ensure that we the cabin crew get a much worse deal than the one on the table right now.

Please, someone help us!! You have seen by your own eyes the rantings of the BASSA faithful. Imagine working with them. Imagine every day coming to work and hearing those same rantings, intent on destroying this company and oblivious to the world around them.

Our jobs are on the line now and we need to act fast. Somehow, we must find a way forward to stop the rot.

So, how do we persuade the crew that:
a. There really is a recession on out there - promise.
b. BA really could go under - promise.
c. BASSA really ARE only worried about their monthly subscriptions and not your takehome pay - promise.
d. BA really don't want to shaft us - they just want to save money so that we can ALL have jobs in the future.

I have said it before but when you are a few lone voices in a sea (and a pretty brainwashed sea) of 14000 people, how do you get the message through?

The real problem here is Unite. We must not allow MissM, Fume, Lurker etc divert our focus off that - we must find a way to make our voices heard. Any advice anyone?

I am BA cabin crew and the above represents my own view and not that of BA.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

HiFlyer ... you'll find the answer in about 3 months.

My company can't help you, I can't help you. I can only speed the process to the 21st Century by ensuring that my staff and I don't fly BA; not from malice but from a sense of reality as "the paying customer".

Over the last couple of weeks I've seen and read enough to put me off BA for life, for which I congratulate the BASSA activists. You can therefore bring down BA around your ears without the inconvenience of going on strike. Where you go, I care not.

The sensible adults amongst the BA CC will undoubtedly gain new employment with BOAC2 or BEA2. I wish you good luck in 2010.