British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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@ Da Dog ... thank you for that. I know it's a bit impertinent to ask how much people get paid, but when there's a relatively major issue like the current BA/BASSA one going on it's useful to be able to consider things from an informed perspective.
It's obvious that a lot of ££££ lies outwith the basic salary. I'm comfortable with the concept that individual costs have to be covered [been there, done that, I can assure you]. However, this was never about pay as such, was it? It was BA trying to stem a £1m a day loss by reducing LHR crewing by one, and asking the CSD to help with service. If we assume, for argument's sake, a £50k CSD ... what do they actually DO for that salary? Just supervise?
That's an honest question, because I have little idea what a CSD does.
I know what CC do [doors, safety briefs, cabin service etc.].
What does the CSD actually DO?
It's obvious that a lot of ££££ lies outwith the basic salary. I'm comfortable with the concept that individual costs have to be covered [been there, done that, I can assure you]. However, this was never about pay as such, was it? It was BA trying to stem a £1m a day loss by reducing LHR crewing by one, and asking the CSD to help with service. If we assume, for argument's sake, a £50k CSD ... what do they actually DO for that salary? Just supervise?
That's an honest question, because I have little idea what a CSD does.
I know what CC do [doors, safety briefs, cabin service etc.].
What does the CSD actually DO?
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TTB
That's an honest question, because I have little idea what a CSD does.
(sarcasm for those who need it pointing out)I'm sure A Lurker or her husband will be along shortly to outline the job description.
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So if a csd is on a BASIC of around 45k, then you add circa 10k for box payments and overtime,a nd another 10k for allowances;
then 65k is a good figure for AVERAGE csd earnings.
Obviously some - with connections, and trip selection - will be on more than that!!!
No wonder they don't want to change the system
It's so hard to believe that new contract crew never question their reps about this.
Maybe they just hope it'll still be there when they get promotion.
But many just don't realise what an incredibly good deal they're on.
I talked to a nice main crew girl recently, and her particular beef was that the company had furnished the press with false salary inforation.
She was quite indignant that her salary was nowhere near 30k!
She claimed to take home 18k, on a 75% contract................
then 65k is a good figure for AVERAGE csd earnings.
Obviously some - with connections, and trip selection - will be on more than that!!!
No wonder they don't want to change the system
It's so hard to believe that new contract crew never question their reps about this.
Maybe they just hope it'll still be there when they get promotion.
But many just don't realise what an incredibly good deal they're on.
I talked to a nice main crew girl recently, and her particular beef was that the company had furnished the press with false salary inforation.
She was quite indignant that her salary was nowhere near 30k!
She claimed to take home 18k, on a 75% contract................
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A common feeling amongst cabin crew at the present is that the audit failed due to crew from all the airlines partaking to supply enough receipts .
The thought,therefore,is that the fault lays firmly at the door of HMRC and BASSA is blameless.
The silence from BASSA is deafening.
The thought,therefore,is that the fault lays firmly at the door of HMRC and BASSA is blameless.
The silence from BASSA is deafening.
HMRC's job is to basically collect the right amount of tax at the right time. HMRC cannot be expected to do BASSA/CC's work for them. It's not for HMRC to prove that sums paid by BA to its CC employees should not be treated as taxable income. If BASSA were representing CC on this, that's their job - which, if they'd done a proper thorough job, would have included an assessment as to how vulnerable the current system of CC allowances is to challenge from HMRC and, if so, whether an alternative system would be better. Any professional advisor would have recommended this if they'd been retained to work with BASSA on this.
If BASSA did not use professional advisors (which for negotiations concerning 14,000 CC with complex working practices and pay structure really should have been used), I think the money they've spent over the past few months hiring venues at racecourses certainly could have been put to better use..
The only sensible way forward for BASSA is with a new chair, new reps and a new attitude - one that encompasses the real world, and not lalaland.
All genuine questions from someone who remembers the days when the top of BALPA was somewhat heavy with Senior Captains.....
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Its a shame this bad news has come on the day that BASSA have paid out for a full page add in the house of commons in house monthly mag, plenty of fan fair about that over on the BASSA forum but not one comment from a BASSA rep about the disasterous HMRC audit result.
It almost seems as though they want the member to whip themselves into a frenzy and start some very untrue rumours such as:
1. Its imposition all over again
2. I must vote yes now more than ever (????)
3. BASSA must have been locked out of negotiations, was it all done behind closed doors.
4. We are paying for bankers bonuses "I find it sickening"
5. We must ask for a 24% payrise
You could not make it up
5
It almost seems as though they want the member to whip themselves into a frenzy and start some very untrue rumours such as:
1. Its imposition all over again
2. I must vote yes now more than ever (????)
3. BASSA must have been locked out of negotiations, was it all done behind closed doors.
4. We are paying for bankers bonuses "I find it sickening"
5. We must ask for a 24% payrise
You could not make it up
5
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I'm afraid the only solution is to stand up to the hardliners, and try to provide a focal point for people who have a similar opinion - and there are many out there as you know.
It will take some courage, but someone needs to ask difficult questions at the meetings and on the forums. Initially there will be little public support but the seed will have been sown. The Bassa community aren't used to people seriously questioning Bassa's attitudes, tactics and communictions over a sustained period. It needs to happen for alternative ideas to get a hearing.
Once the seed is sown and there is a culture of questioning the official line, of being critical of reps and the leadership, then when it comes to the election of reps, there's a chance that non-party line reps will gain some ground and have a voice.
The organisation can then start to represent all its members.
It'll be tough at first, but it's vital for decent cabin crew and for the company to evict these self-serving power seekers at the first opportunity.
It will take some courage, but someone needs to ask difficult questions at the meetings and on the forums. Initially there will be little public support but the seed will have been sown. The Bassa community aren't used to people seriously questioning Bassa's attitudes, tactics and communictions over a sustained period. It needs to happen for alternative ideas to get a hearing.
Once the seed is sown and there is a culture of questioning the official line, of being critical of reps and the leadership, then when it comes to the election of reps, there's a chance that non-party line reps will gain some ground and have a voice.
The organisation can then start to represent all its members.
It'll be tough at first, but it's vital for decent cabin crew and for the company to evict these self-serving power seekers at the first opportunity.
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Reality - The Exodus Continues
To all all BA CC,
I have a large of circle mates, most of whom earn a pretty-penny through their sheer talent to front both large and small companies. Now, we were down t'pub the other night and 3 of them explained that their individual company travel budgets have been distributed anywhere but BA, TFN - why, uncertainty. Trust me folks, that's big money gone elsewhere, and I am just one example. Multiply those budgets by a suitable number and the REALITY IS STARK. Whilst this uncertainity fuelled by your union continues, we are doomed. Your extra 'tax payment' will become academic.
You make think that the jets are 'rammed full' - nope, they are not, yields are shocking given the price the SLF have stumped up. BASSA, IMHO, are suicidally f*cking this affair up, punters are leaving in droves - witness the stats BA pump out each quarter - and no, they don't make it up; very soon things are going to get exceedingly rough, as LaLa is cornered.
GF
(worried)
I have a large of circle mates, most of whom earn a pretty-penny through their sheer talent to front both large and small companies. Now, we were down t'pub the other night and 3 of them explained that their individual company travel budgets have been distributed anywhere but BA, TFN - why, uncertainty. Trust me folks, that's big money gone elsewhere, and I am just one example. Multiply those budgets by a suitable number and the REALITY IS STARK. Whilst this uncertainity fuelled by your union continues, we are doomed. Your extra 'tax payment' will become academic.
You make think that the jets are 'rammed full' - nope, they are not, yields are shocking given the price the SLF have stumped up. BASSA, IMHO, are suicidally f*cking this affair up, punters are leaving in droves - witness the stats BA pump out each quarter - and no, they don't make it up; very soon things are going to get exceedingly rough, as LaLa is cornered.
GF
(worried)
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@ IYCSWICSWICW [thank God for 'cut and paste' 
]
Someone asked a while back about forward bookings. I know my email in-box is full of BA Sale offers. As long is there is "uncertainty" about the BA operation, savvy "punters" [may we call them paying customers?] will take other options. Interestingly, the main BA fiscal yield appears to be from J and F pax, who could perhaps be considered the ones who know what's going on [no disrespect intended to Y]. As many of us have said, the money is going elsewhere until this nonsense is sorted once and for all.
It really is 'grown up' time.
]Someone asked a while back about forward bookings. I know my email in-box is full of BA Sale offers. As long is there is "uncertainty" about the BA operation, savvy "punters" [may we call them paying customers?] will take other options. Interestingly, the main BA fiscal yield appears to be from J and F pax, who could perhaps be considered the ones who know what's going on [no disrespect intended to Y]. As many of us have said, the money is going elsewhere until this nonsense is sorted once and for all.
It really is 'grown up' time.
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Da Dog
Ref your post 1961 which you end with saying
It appears that YOU can! By cut and pasting the comments you made in your post you have attempted to mislead whoever reads this public thread.
For example you state
Your Quote
Actual Quotes
Your Quote
Actual Quote
Your quote
Actual quote
Your Quote
My Quote
You could if you are a pilot
You could not make it up
For example you state
the member to whip themselves into a frenzy and start some very untrue rumours such as:
1. Its imposition all over again
Were BASSA allowed to have any say on this tax change or is this another imposistion?
As I said before is this another imposistion?
3. BASSA must have been locked out of negotiations, was it all done behind closed doors.
Were BASSA allowed to meet with HMRC or was all this done behind closed doors.
4. We are paying for bankers bonuses "I find it sickening"
I think we are in part, paying for the bankers bonuses and recession in disguise.........I find it sickening really
You could not make it up
You could if you are a pilot
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BigBrutha
Why are you trying to sensationalise something?
It works out at around 7% extra tax per month - on my last months allowances thats around £40 - no problems there for me at all - hardly "massive" is it?
The crew failed the audit because they couldnt prove to the taxman they spent all their allowances on food - big deal!!!!!!
By the way have you paid out on your bet with A Lurker yet? I doubt it very much
It works out at around 7% extra tax per month - on my last months allowances thats around £40 - no problems there for me at all - hardly "massive" is it?
The crew failed the audit because they couldnt prove to the taxman they spent all their allowances on food - big deal!!!!!!
By the way have you paid out on your bet with A Lurker yet? I doubt it very much
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I have a large of circle mates, most of whom earn a pretty-penny through their sheer talent to front both large and small companies. Now, we were down t'pub the other night and 3 of them explained that their individual company travel budgets have been distributed anywhere but BA, TFN - why, uncertainty. Trust me folks, that's big money gone elsewhere, and I am just one example. Multiply those budgets by a suitable number and the REALITY IS STARK.
Right now it is time for BASSA, or one of its ever-loyal apologists, to come back on this thread and to explain just what the XXXX is going on.
There is a ballot next week to decide whether or not BASSA members want further industrial action against BA. There is the current issue of expenses taxation.
BASSA members need and want sensible answers - n o w .
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It works out at around 7% extra tax per month - on my last months allowances thats around £40 - no problems there for me at all - hardly "massive" is it?
The crew failed the audit because they couldnt prove to the taxman they spent all their allowances on food - big deal!!!!!!
The crew failed the audit because they couldnt prove to the taxman they spent all their allowances on food - big deal!!!!!!
We couldn't care two hoots whether you personally can afford it or not, but well done on being able to take £500/year from taxed income without complaint, when.... wait for it......
Bassa could have avoided it!!!
Yes! They could have mitigated that cut in your personal income by proper negotiation.
Totally unnecessary.
Ah, Newposter, recognise your tone now. You are anything but a new poster - you have been here before and moderated out, more than once. Your transparent 'disguise' doesn't conceal your anti-pilot stance. Wouldn't you be better off back at Crew Forum or the BASSA forums? They fall for that anti-pilot stuff there - it doesn't work here.
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BigBrutha
Firstly you need to do the maths - it works out at about an additional 7% per month per £100 of allowances - just have to buy one less Abercrombie tee-shirt
Secondly how has A Lurker lost the bet? You are just typical - cant pay up your bet
Secondly how has A Lurker lost the bet? You are just typical - cant pay up your bet
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BigBrutha
I haven't paid out to Lurker because Lurker has lost the bet.
Posted after the above
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Taken From Another Forum
BigBrutha
Someone else already worked it out and I double checked it - please feel free to apologise for your lack of mathematical ability
Someone else already worked it out and I double checked it - please feel free to apologise for your lack of mathematical ability
What does it mean in your pocket?
Quote " the new proportion of the MAP (Meal Allowance Payment) that HMRC have agreed that British Airways is allowed to pay you free of tax and NI is 41%"
That is a decrease of 24% from our current rate of 65% - in other words we are 24% worse off from February onwards.
In simple terms for every £1000 in meal allowances:
Currently:
35% taxable at say 20% tax and 11% NI
£350 x 31% = £108.50 tax and NI = allowances in your pay of £891.50
From 1st Feb:
59% taxable at say 20% tax and 11% NI
£590 x 31% = £182.90 tax and NI = allowances in your pay of £817.10
So in effect you will be worse off £75.40 per £1000 in meal allowances earned or £7.54 per £100
Remember this is only for Meal Allowances - not your other which is already taxable at full rates
Quote " the new proportion of the MAP (Meal Allowance Payment) that HMRC have agreed that British Airways is allowed to pay you free of tax and NI is 41%"
That is a decrease of 24% from our current rate of 65% - in other words we are 24% worse off from February onwards.
In simple terms for every £1000 in meal allowances:
Currently:
35% taxable at say 20% tax and 11% NI
£350 x 31% = £108.50 tax and NI = allowances in your pay of £891.50
From 1st Feb:
59% taxable at say 20% tax and 11% NI
£590 x 31% = £182.90 tax and NI = allowances in your pay of £817.10
So in effect you will be worse off £75.40 per £1000 in meal allowances earned or £7.54 per £100
Remember this is only for Meal Allowances - not your other which is already taxable at full rates
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New Poster
BA Cabin crew didn't fail the exercise - it wasn't a pass/fail exercise.
HMRC believed that the balance of allowances that were consumed downroute compared with the amount of allowances taken home was allowing tax to be avoided that should have been collected.
The review was to allow us as pilots and cabin crew to prove he counter argument that we spent the vast majority of our allowances. If we hadn't responded at all, we would all be paying your high taxable rate.
Balpa explained the situation pre-review, (just as Bassa did) and once it was completed, and the receipt based spending was shown to be low(just as it was for cabin crew), HMRC came to both groups with their new taxable rates.
Balpa then moved up a gear, engaging in a year of negotiating, research on tax law, and statistical analysis with HMRC. Many months of laborious and stressful work by Balpa resulted in us achieving an agreed 3% increse in taxable allowances.
What did Bassa do to achieve the 20/30/40% increases in taxation for cabin crew?
Exactly the same circumstances, different reps.
BA Cabin crew didn't fail the exercise - it wasn't a pass/fail exercise.
HMRC believed that the balance of allowances that were consumed downroute compared with the amount of allowances taken home was allowing tax to be avoided that should have been collected.
The review was to allow us as pilots and cabin crew to prove he counter argument that we spent the vast majority of our allowances. If we hadn't responded at all, we would all be paying your high taxable rate.
Balpa explained the situation pre-review, (just as Bassa did) and once it was completed, and the receipt based spending was shown to be low(just as it was for cabin crew), HMRC came to both groups with their new taxable rates.
Balpa then moved up a gear, engaging in a year of negotiating, research on tax law, and statistical analysis with HMRC. Many months of laborious and stressful work by Balpa resulted in us achieving an agreed 3% increse in taxable allowances.
What did Bassa do to achieve the 20/30/40% increases in taxation for cabin crew?
Exactly the same circumstances, different reps.
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Midman
BA Cabin crew didn't fail the exercise