British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V

[Runway vacated]

Rover90

So 48/70*100 = 68.5% increase

D'oh! Rover 90, bottom of the class! You can't go using PROPER maths to prove your point, that's just unfair and spoils the argument.

You have to use fantasy, BASSA maths - you know, the sort that proves the recession is over and that BA is making stacks of money.

Talk about a schoolboy error!

[Carnage Matey!]

Quite right Glamgirl. I don't hate cabin crew at all, but I have noted that the 'you hate crew' allegation is levelled whenever crew can no longer argue against the facts. Nor is it levelled at me exclusively. It's regularly levelled against other pilots, managers and anyone at Wateside who isn't crew ("they must have failed the interview to be crew" is the allegation that goes hand in hand with that one). Nor, presumably much to MissMs dismay, am I worried about my pension. Certainly no more than anyone else with sound financial acumen would be. As it happens my accrued benefits are comfortably below the PPFs upper threshold, so I'd lose no more proportionally than most crew would, despite their oft stated desire to see the fund collapse in order to get one up on the pilots.

[Da Dog]

BASSA in denial

Rover 90, you are in denial, BASSA fought a long hard war with our comrades in government, and we reduced the tax level from 35% to 50%........................... err does that make sense?

[Rover90]

It doesn't matter what the tax rate is....the increase in tax paid on LH meal allowances is 68.5%....and I need to get out more.

[Rover90]

Just to be clear

Just to be totally accurate and to avoid any misunderstanding:

On £1000 meal allowances:
35% is liable for taxation ie £350
and now 59% will be liable for taxation ie £590
Therefore £240 (£590 - £350) extra is now liable for taxation.
Assume a tax rate of 20% (it can be anything as it does not affect the percentage figure)
20% Tax on £350 = £70
20% Tax on £590 = £118
Still assuming the arbitary 20% Tax Rate, increase in Tax = £48 (£118 - £70)
So 48/70*100 = 68.5% increase in tax paid

In conclusion, there will be a 68.5% increase in tax paid on any MEAL allowances in Long Haul

Assuming that the new taxation liability level is 59%

[romans44]

Guys and (of course)girls
Are you really suggesting that BASSA should be negotiating with the TAX man?
I don't really know much about it so at the moment, I will keep my comments to myself but, in the words of a famous film character..I'LL BE BACK...

[Glamgirl]

Romans,

Are you really suggesting that BASSA should be negotiating with the TAX man?

Simply put: Yes.

Gg

[romans44]

Balpa reps spent a massive amount of effort, together with a couple of BA managers, to present a well-thought out case for HMRC to significantly increase the non-taxable element of allowances. It looked bad at first (similar to cabin crew's figures) but effective NEGOTIATION, together with sound research and a well presented case have resulted in me being about only about £7/month worse off.

How much are you worse off from next month, Romans? (Or MissM, Watersidewker etc

Midman, I apologies about my ignorance on the subjects, but are u suggesting Bassa reps should be negotiating , making deals or making out cases with HMRC?
Can you be more specific about what kind of negotiation,research and well presented cases went on between BALPA and HMRC?
I don't know how worse I am yet, but since (according to the Daily Mail) I am on 35.000 pounds a year, frankly I am not bothered.

[jetlag22]

Romans:

You live in a world of your own if you think you should not have been. BALPA negotiated with the taxman. Fight crew tax free element ony dropped from 82% tax free to 79% tax free due to effective negotiation and a lot of hard work from the reps. The reps also had great support from BA. BASSA need to hold their hands up on this one and say.... should have tried harder.

[romans44]

Gg, do u mind me asking if u are a BASSA member?
if you are , do u mind me asking if you have put that question to BASSA yet?
I am not aware of trade unions entering negotiations with the tax man, but to be fair to me, I am not from this Country and not familiar with that sort of thing. Will call the tax office as soon as I l get back from my next trip and ,hopefuly,will have a clear picture on the correct procedure.

[Glamgirl]

No, Romans, I'm not a member of bassa. Several people have asked the question on cf, but no reply at all.

Might be worth you contacting bassa in the morning (or asap) and then perhaps post the reply here?

Gg

[La Pouquelaye]

A bed time thought

The Roman writer and historian, Publius Vergilius Maro - better known simply as Virgil - might well have been writing about the goings-on here on this thread when he wrote:

"For right and wrong are confused here
There is so much war in the world
Evil has so many faces
The plough has so little honour
The labourers are taken
The fields are untended
And the moving sickle is beaten into the sword that yields not".

And for Romans44 - who always wants a reference for everything - this was taken from Virgil's book "The Georgics".

Night night, all. The petty bickering, snide remarks, mutual self-denigration can all wait until tomorrow.

But rest assured that the lights are still burning in Willy Walsh's office as he prepares his strategy for dealing with BASSA.

[jetlag22]

Romans:

A lot of people have asked that question of BASSA but seem to be having a bit of trouble getting an answer. Perhaps after you phone the tax man you could call BASSA and let us know the responses- other people dont seem to be able to get an answer from their union as to why their pay was reduced by so much more than other working groups, Many Thanks.

[IYCSWICSWICW]

Romans,WRT negotiation with the Taxman - BASSA should have done way,way more....issues such as currency fluctuation, internet access, phone usage, break timings/eating windows....inter alia...were on the table. It would appear that the BASSA fundamentalists have neither the wit or accumen to go figure on behalf of their members.

I ask again, how can BASSA be held in serious regard anymore?..on any issue?

MissM - the use of 'hate CC', is naive and symptomatic of the simplistic nature of BASSA's rhetoric. (Not an attack BTW on you MissM, just an observation\\\\\0

GF

[Desertia]

Romans44,

Guys and (of course)girls
Are you really suggesting that BASSA should be negotiating with the TAX man?

I don't think anyone is suggesting this. From what I can surmise, BALPA negotiated with HRMC, with the assistance of BA management, throughout the HRMC review and audit process, and negotiated an agreeable rate for all of their members.

I think people are stating, not suggesting, that the clueless, overpaid old farts that run BASSA should have also done this, instead of which, by doing next to nothing apart from sending out a few letters to their members (which seems to be about all they can manage), they have lumped them with a significant and unnecessarily large tax increase.

I hope that clarifies things.

Addendum:

Unite's notice about tomorrow's meeting reads:

A meeting of ALL British Airways cabin crew will be at KEMPTON PARK, starting 11am on MONDAY 18th JAN 2010

It will give anyone an opportunity to ask any questions on the legal decision that postponed the ballot.

More information on the upcoming 2010 ballot and the result of the online poll will be discussed.

The membership will also be updated on the ongoing talks that are taking place with BA, with Q&As taken from the floor.

Q&A's will be taken from the floor. Perhaps you will be the one to ask them what they did?

[Cough]

So from what I understand, the BASSA reps:

• Can't negotiate with BA
• Can't negotiate with HMRC
• Can't get along with their parent association UNITE

So that points in one direction to me, the BASSA leadership is flawed.

[LD12986]

Are you really suggesting that BASSA should be negotiating with the TAX man?

As the an organisation that is paid to represent the interests of all of its members, yes.

But it doesn't have to do so in isolation.

Did BASSA use professional advisors? Yes they cost money. Though the cost would probably have amounted to at most few quid per member, which given how much as been shown to be at stake, would have been a worthwhile investment and probably a better use of money than hiring out racecourse venues and pursuing infinitely more expensive litigation in the courts. Professional advisors have lots of experience with negotiating with HMRC and can see "the bigger picture" (ie what HMRC have done elsewhere).

How well did BASSA work with BA management? BA will have a sizeable in-house tax department with professionally qualified accountants/tax advisors who again have existing relationships with HMRC officers and lots of experience with negotiating with them.

No-one expects any rep to be an expert in tax. That's not what CC are paid to do and a basic rule I was taught in my job (as I said before I have a lot of professional experience working with HMRC) is if you don't feel you have the experience/expertise to deal with something yourself, bring in someone else who does - that is a sign of strength not weakness.

[midman]

The performance of Bassa in this area of taxation makes me wonder about the forthcoming pension negotiations.

There are likely to be some very difficult propositions made by the trustees to the company and by the company to the unions that could have significant impact on take home pay in the short term and on pension entitlement in the long term. From the last pension negotiations and these tax issues, I have little confidence that Bassa have the expertise, nor the negotiating ability to represent their members effectively. Do Bassa members share my pessimism?

[La Pouquelaye]

A question to all cabin crew

A ballot on whether or not BASSA should call a strike is imminent.

Given that your union appears to have mishandled the issue of taxation of allowances, and has not yet issued a statement on that matter, would you vote for or against a union demand for another strike?

A simple 'yes' or a 'no' would suffice, although all comments will, of course. be very welcome.

[TopBunk]

From the last pension negotiations and these tax issues, I have little confidence that Bassa have the expertise, nor the negotiating ability to represent their members effectively.

I confidently expect that the BA employees from all areas will once again rely on BALPA to extract the best pension solution possible for everyone.

Last time round BASSA didn't even bother to turn up on critical days as they were busy having another of their periodic tantrums and feet were being stamped and toys being thrown out of prams.