British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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WWW.
If you are so good at your job then surely another airline will pay you what you're worth. All you have to do is apply to all those who are waiting for you with open arms. I'm sure that BA will be able to replace you.
If you are so good at your job then surely another airline will pay you what you're worth. All you have to do is apply to all those who are waiting for you with open arms. I'm sure that BA will be able to replace you.
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There is a lot of creative accounting by the BA sympathisers on this thread. Somehow they can easily explain away the hundreds of millions BA have paid in fines, as nothing more than a little dot in the fiscal history of the airline.
Just the fines alone make the savings required by Walsh appear insignificant. Then you add on (by the way, my English teacher at my Grammar School said that you should never start a sentence with 'then') the fuel hedging lash up, OpenSkies, legal fees for the airline plus those for managers facing trial, you can see quite clearly that the dispute with cabin crew is nothing to do with money.
Anyone would think that BA's cabin crew earn so much that they alone are bankrupting BA. What is difficult for BA's pilots in the future, is how they demonstrate that their skills flying a BA jet are superior to a first officer in BMI Baby? The old hands here should be spending their time concentrating on this thought ,and hope that BA's cabin crew win their battle..... as you are next!!
Just the fines alone make the savings required by Walsh appear insignificant. Then you add on (by the way, my English teacher at my Grammar School said that you should never start a sentence with 'then') the fuel hedging lash up, OpenSkies, legal fees for the airline plus those for managers facing trial, you can see quite clearly that the dispute with cabin crew is nothing to do with money.
Anyone would think that BA's cabin crew earn so much that they alone are bankrupting BA. What is difficult for BA's pilots in the future, is how they demonstrate that their skills flying a BA jet are superior to a first officer in BMI Baby? The old hands here should be spending their time concentrating on this thought ,and hope that BA's cabin crew win their battle..... as you are next!!
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Fume Event,
To use your analogy, what makes you twice as good as those working their nuts off in the Ryanair cabin?
As to the rest of the BASSA spin of OS, fines, fuel hedging etc. It is all old news that has been gone over a multitude of times on this thread.
To use your analogy, what makes you twice as good as those working their nuts off in the Ryanair cabin?
As to the rest of the BASSA spin of OS, fines, fuel hedging etc. It is all old news that has been gone over a multitude of times on this thread.
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Just so you know, Crew-Fran has been sent over from Crew Forum, as their cunning game is all to register here under usernames with the initials CF and try to flood the forum. You're probably all wasting your time attempting to answer any of his/her questions as he/she has no interest in your answers. BASSA 100% and it's all a big plan by the fat cats to enrich themselves at the cabin crews expense.
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Repeat of previous posts:
This thread is about the possible changes in the conditions of BA Cabin Crew.
It´s not about BA pilots and their deal.
Posts dealing with the latter are being deleted on an ongoing basis.
So making them is futile, as is answering them.
As regards flooding this forum; hard to believe that people will use their time on something so futile. The majority of our BA CC colleagues is smarter than that.
This forum, as has been said many times, is run by CC for CC.
We are professional CC who do not work for BA and who do not have a stake in the outcome of this dispute. Our aim is to provide a platform where people can exchange views in a civilised manner, for the benefit of CC.
Attempting in any way at all to flood this forum seems rather self-destructive.
A thought to keep in mind is that it takes a lot more time to register a new username than it takes to delete one.
This thread is about the possible changes in the conditions of BA Cabin Crew.
It´s not about BA pilots and their deal.
Posts dealing with the latter are being deleted on an ongoing basis.
So making them is futile, as is answering them.
As regards flooding this forum; hard to believe that people will use their time on something so futile. The majority of our BA CC colleagues is smarter than that.
This forum, as has been said many times, is run by CC for CC.
We are professional CC who do not work for BA and who do not have a stake in the outcome of this dispute. Our aim is to provide a platform where people can exchange views in a civilised manner, for the benefit of CC.
Attempting in any way at all to flood this forum seems rather self-destructive.
A thought to keep in mind is that it takes a lot more time to register a new username than it takes to delete one.
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To all of you want BA to have a future do not get wound up by the postings of PIB,WWW,Flying Chick etc. There are less than 10 of them who post on here.It is the same on CF. There are only about 100 regular posters out of 14000.
The initial high court decision will be out this week. If it goes against BA it will then proceed to a full court hearing. In the meantime 2000 cc will probably be let go as per the HR notice. Then lets see how the ballot turns out.
If a strike goes ahead more crew will be let go as the business dries up and more aircraft are grounded.But WW will win in the end.It is the only way BA will have a future. At a recent seminar someone asked ` Can we afford to take on the cabin crew` and the reply was ` This time we can`t afford not to`
The initial high court decision will be out this week. If it goes against BA it will then proceed to a full court hearing. In the meantime 2000 cc will probably be let go as per the HR notice. Then lets see how the ballot turns out.
If a strike goes ahead more crew will be let go as the business dries up and more aircraft are grounded.But WW will win in the end.It is the only way BA will have a future. At a recent seminar someone asked ` Can we afford to take on the cabin crew` and the reply was ` This time we can`t afford not to`
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Earnings Preview: British Airways to post Q2 loss
Associated Press, 11.04.09, 07:25 AM EST
LONDON -- British Airways reports earnings for its second quarter ending Sept. 30 on Friday before the stock market opens. The following is a summary of key developments and analyst opinion related to the period.
OVERVIEW: British Airways is expected to report a loss in what is normally one of its best quarters as the company struggles to cope with a recession which has depressed the air travel market. Unions are resisting the company's efforts to cut costs.
BA reported a net loss of 106 million pounds in the first quarter, compared to a profit of 27 million pounds a year earlier.
The company has been hurt by a decrease in premium traffic. In September, BA said traffic measured in revenue passenger kilometers, was down by 0.8 percent - with premium traffic down 7.9 percent and non-premium up 0.7 percent.
Nonetheless, BA launched a new premium-priced service between the close-in London City Airport and New York on Sept. 29, using Airbus A318s configured with 32 beds.
Looking for any way to boost revenue, BA announced in August that it would sell advertising space on its Web site and boarding passes.
BY THE NUMBERS: The average analyst forecast is that BA will report a pretax loss of 252 million pounds for the first half, following a first-quarter pretax loss of 148 million pounds. Revenue is forecast to be down 13 percent at 4.13 billion pounds.
ANALYST TAKE: Nick Cunningham at Evolution Securities says BA faces "very tough, risky conditions" but has the capital to get through to an eventual recovery.
"This is normally the most profitable quarter of the year but yields have been extremely weak industrywide and it will be a struggle for BA to have remained profitable. We think it will just have managed that but many do not and forecasts are too dispersed to be called a consensus, emphasizing the scale of uncertainty. Meanwhile BA is tackling costs but is unlikely to become structurally profitable again until sometime in FY 2011."
WHAT'S AHEAD: BA may face strikes over the Christmas/New Year period.
STOCK PERFORMANCE: BA shares rose from 127.5 pence on June 30 to 220.5 pence at the end of the second quarter. Shares currently are trading around 180 pence, up 20 percent from a year ago.
Associated Press, 11.04.09, 07:25 AM EST
LONDON -- British Airways reports earnings for its second quarter ending Sept. 30 on Friday before the stock market opens. The following is a summary of key developments and analyst opinion related to the period.
OVERVIEW: British Airways is expected to report a loss in what is normally one of its best quarters as the company struggles to cope with a recession which has depressed the air travel market. Unions are resisting the company's efforts to cut costs.
BA reported a net loss of 106 million pounds in the first quarter, compared to a profit of 27 million pounds a year earlier.
The company has been hurt by a decrease in premium traffic. In September, BA said traffic measured in revenue passenger kilometers, was down by 0.8 percent - with premium traffic down 7.9 percent and non-premium up 0.7 percent.
Nonetheless, BA launched a new premium-priced service between the close-in London City Airport and New York on Sept. 29, using Airbus A318s configured with 32 beds.
Looking for any way to boost revenue, BA announced in August that it would sell advertising space on its Web site and boarding passes.
BY THE NUMBERS: The average analyst forecast is that BA will report a pretax loss of 252 million pounds for the first half, following a first-quarter pretax loss of 148 million pounds. Revenue is forecast to be down 13 percent at 4.13 billion pounds.
ANALYST TAKE: Nick Cunningham at Evolution Securities says BA faces "very tough, risky conditions" but has the capital to get through to an eventual recovery.
"This is normally the most profitable quarter of the year but yields have been extremely weak industrywide and it will be a struggle for BA to have remained profitable. We think it will just have managed that but many do not and forecasts are too dispersed to be called a consensus, emphasizing the scale of uncertainty. Meanwhile BA is tackling costs but is unlikely to become structurally profitable again until sometime in FY 2011."
WHAT'S AHEAD: BA may face strikes over the Christmas/New Year period.
STOCK PERFORMANCE: BA shares rose from 127.5 pence on June 30 to 220.5 pence at the end of the second quarter. Shares currently are trading around 180 pence, up 20 percent from a year ago.
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I thought i would just share with you the FACT that a cabin crew steward who use to work for Easyjet told me he earned the same as he does working at BA and he didn't do nightstops. I can't understand how my little brain tells me how i shouldn't accept BA's offer perhaps im just not willing to change with the times (working for free,-30% of my pay going etc etc) i just don't understand.
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I wonder if its the same one who told me on shorthaul that he earned the same money as he did at BA on a good month at Easyjet provided he did lots of good routes so he could earn plenty of DF commission? There are too many people out here who are crew for other companies to get away with stretching the truth like that Wonker. It works on your insular crew forums where nobody will challenge you, but in the real world people know what you earn gross, they won't be mislead be you pleading about how low your basic salary is and they know how your productivity compares to competitor airlines.
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Watersidewonker,
Perhaps then BA should implement fixed link turn arounds, reduced rest and 6 sector days then? Perhaps that will introduce the concept of 'productivity' into your (Quote) little brain (Quote).
Perhaps then BA should implement fixed link turn arounds, reduced rest and 6 sector days then? Perhaps that will introduce the concept of 'productivity' into your (Quote) little brain (Quote).
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Fume Event #2680
Unlike a lot of BA insiders, I'm happy to take all you say about BA's past indiscretions and errors as being perfectly reasonable points. Unfortunately, that money has gone. It simply isn't there to pay staff salaries etc in future. The sad fact is that City consensus forecasts are that BA will lose £450m at the operating level this year (to 3/2010), and £50m at the operating level next year (3/2011). Last year BA lost £200m at that level. What I mean by "operating level" is the cost of running the airline operation excluding one-off distorting events such as the ones you've highlighted. Keep in mind these forecasts almost certainly include estimates for how much BA will save from making what analysts feel are the realistic changes Walsh can push through. So, in the absence of any T&C changes, the forecasts would be even worse.
It is a pity your Union did not avail of the offer to review BA's detailed financial projections. If they had, the Union would now be in a position to determine wether the City has it broadly right or not. As it is, you are simply not in a position to question City (effectively BA-guided) forecasts of future performance, as you have no idea what assumptions lie behind them. I cannot see why your Union chose not to take access to the financial projections. It just makes no sense. It committed them to nothing, closed off no options. It just means they, and hence you, are in an information vacuum compared to other employee groups and BA itself. I think there is something significant in the fact that all the groups that reviewed the financials appear to have reached settlements with BA, and the ones that did not, have not. No matter how you analyse the overall dispute with BA, not taking access to their detailed financial records was a mistake.
WW and his senior managers believe various changes need to be made to ensure BA survives. Had your Union accessed the financial projections, you would now be better placed to see how BA reached their conclusions, and you could now challenge them informatively. I have as little information as you (other than the City forecasts noted above). However, it is clear that BA's view is that the old high margin business-fare centric model will not work in future. You are entitled to dispute that view. However, as I've said before, you are not going to convince Walsh that only temporary changes are required, and hence if you do not accept WW's view of the world you need to identify potential replacements for WW et al who share your view in order to have any chance of success.
You then need to convince institutional shareholders that you are right, and get WW replaced. Your problem, though, is that I just don't see anyone, in any airline, following plans closer to your view of the world than WW's. Most are taking more draconian action than BA. So I repeat again: where are the potential CEOs to replace WW who will be more attractive to you and your Union? You appear to view your dispute with BA as a choice between "Paradise on Earth" or Walsh, and that removing Walsh somehow solves your dispute. The choice is actually between him or "someone else", with "someone else" almost certain to follow a similar and, quite likely, more painful programs of cuts. Just Google the news about virtually any airline you care to think of and see what comes up. You will find it painful reading. BA's proposed cuts are nothing like the toughest out there.
It is a pity your Union did not avail of the offer to review BA's detailed financial projections. If they had, the Union would now be in a position to determine wether the City has it broadly right or not. As it is, you are simply not in a position to question City (effectively BA-guided) forecasts of future performance, as you have no idea what assumptions lie behind them. I cannot see why your Union chose not to take access to the financial projections. It just makes no sense. It committed them to nothing, closed off no options. It just means they, and hence you, are in an information vacuum compared to other employee groups and BA itself. I think there is something significant in the fact that all the groups that reviewed the financials appear to have reached settlements with BA, and the ones that did not, have not. No matter how you analyse the overall dispute with BA, not taking access to their detailed financial records was a mistake.
WW and his senior managers believe various changes need to be made to ensure BA survives. Had your Union accessed the financial projections, you would now be better placed to see how BA reached their conclusions, and you could now challenge them informatively. I have as little information as you (other than the City forecasts noted above). However, it is clear that BA's view is that the old high margin business-fare centric model will not work in future. You are entitled to dispute that view. However, as I've said before, you are not going to convince Walsh that only temporary changes are required, and hence if you do not accept WW's view of the world you need to identify potential replacements for WW et al who share your view in order to have any chance of success.
You then need to convince institutional shareholders that you are right, and get WW replaced. Your problem, though, is that I just don't see anyone, in any airline, following plans closer to your view of the world than WW's. Most are taking more draconian action than BA. So I repeat again: where are the potential CEOs to replace WW who will be more attractive to you and your Union? You appear to view your dispute with BA as a choice between "Paradise on Earth" or Walsh, and that removing Walsh somehow solves your dispute. The choice is actually between him or "someone else", with "someone else" almost certain to follow a similar and, quite likely, more painful programs of cuts. Just Google the news about virtually any airline you care to think of and see what comes up. You will find it painful reading. BA's proposed cuts are nothing like the toughest out there.
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The BA Mgt may think that they have their staff in a 'Cul de sac' thinking that they won't go thru with the strikes or that they dare to ?
Because they may think the staff 'Fear' about their jobs and the pottential consequences if they strike, And the fact that there is virtually no other Airline jobs available in the short term with a further 158 or more jobs now going at Bmi Baby.
But fearing that there is no other job to go to should not stop the staff doing what they feel is justified.
A Psychological way of thinking from inside the BA Dragons Den?
Because they may think the staff 'Fear' about their jobs and the pottential consequences if they strike, And the fact that there is virtually no other Airline jobs available in the short term with a further 158 or more jobs now going at Bmi Baby.
But fearing that there is no other job to go to should not stop the staff doing what they feel is justified.
A Psychological way of thinking from inside the BA Dragons Den?
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Below another educated comment
Perhaps then BA should implement fixed link turn arounds, reduced rest and 6 sector days then? Perhaps that will introduce the concept of 'productivity' into your (Quote) little brain (Quote).
Maybe a few cost savings such as Private medical care to be stopped 13 or so days off per month do you get this on Ryanair/Easyjet/Monarch/BMI. No i don't think so but i suspect thats why so many people rush to join said airlines no disrespect to those employed by said airlines.
This dispute is not just about CC we also have many more areas waiting to join the fight '' terms and conditions'' thats the name of the game.
Perhaps then BA should implement fixed link turn arounds, reduced rest and 6 sector days then? Perhaps that will introduce the concept of 'productivity' into your (Quote) little brain (Quote).
Maybe a few cost savings such as Private medical care to be stopped 13 or so days off per month do you get this on Ryanair/Easyjet/Monarch/BMI. No i don't think so but i suspect thats why so many people rush to join said airlines no disrespect to those employed by said airlines.
This dispute is not just about CC we also have many more areas waiting to join the fight '' terms and conditions'' thats the name of the game.
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Watersidewonker wrote:
I'm not expecting any kind of reasonable response, but here goes..
a) No one is forcing you to work for free. Some people did, because they realised the terrible state that BA is in. Good for them. I didn't, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to. No one is forcing you to work for free. (and to be honest, by your tone and previous posts, I think you are probably doing the company/customers a favour by spending the least amount of time at work as possible)
b) No one is going to cut 30% of your pay. The only people talking about a pay cut are BASSA, who kindly offered BA a 2.6% cut. (that the vast majority of CC are against - nice one)
"oh, but they will take our good routes away and give them to New Fleet" I can already hear you bleating. Well, if you take the negotiated fixed monthly payment, and negotiate it to be adjusted for flying volume and base rate, then you wont miss out.
"oh, but I earn more than the fixed amount, I will miss out" - BASSA have sight of the IFCE budget, they can see the amounts spend on LR Box payments, B2B, etc etc. They can take this number and divide it by the amount of crew, divide by 12 and check the number for themselves. The people that will miss out are the people that get more than their fair share of the high earning trips. Hmm, who could they be....
"yeah, but you don't get the fixed payment when you are on standby, or on SEP or off sick" - What, you mean like at the moment when you get a nice B2B payment for turning up to SEP or a lovely Box payment if you are at home with the sniffles to make you feel better? That argument doesn't hold water either.
I really do despair sometimes, but the thing that gives me hope is that I have only met a couple of people like you. People who will not see reason, and will not change. It is bordering on pointless even trying with your type.
The vast, vast majority of crew however are not like you. The 13,992 of you who do not post on pprune, and the 13,900 of you that do not just spout BASSA drivel and poison on CF and BASSA forum, either just shouting down anyone who questions with statements like "Don't question the reps, they know what they are doing, trust only BASSA" or writing "Bump" on the end of some half-baked post that is just personal insult about Walsh.
Have you considered what is going to happen if you 'win' in court tomorrow? Do you think that BA are going to let all the VR crew leave? Do you think they are going to let everyone have part time? They still need to get rid of 2000 crew due to the jets parked up in the desert. Do you remember that HR1 that was filed a few months ago....
God help all the reasonable crew this Christmas, I feel very sorry for them.
I can't understand how my little brain tells me how i shouldn't accept BA's offer perhaps im just not willing to change with the times (working for free,-30% of my pay going etc etc)
a) No one is forcing you to work for free. Some people did, because they realised the terrible state that BA is in. Good for them. I didn't, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to. No one is forcing you to work for free. (and to be honest, by your tone and previous posts, I think you are probably doing the company/customers a favour by spending the least amount of time at work as possible)
b) No one is going to cut 30% of your pay. The only people talking about a pay cut are BASSA, who kindly offered BA a 2.6% cut. (that the vast majority of CC are against - nice one)
"oh, but they will take our good routes away and give them to New Fleet" I can already hear you bleating. Well, if you take the negotiated fixed monthly payment, and negotiate it to be adjusted for flying volume and base rate, then you wont miss out.
"oh, but I earn more than the fixed amount, I will miss out" - BASSA have sight of the IFCE budget, they can see the amounts spend on LR Box payments, B2B, etc etc. They can take this number and divide it by the amount of crew, divide by 12 and check the number for themselves. The people that will miss out are the people that get more than their fair share of the high earning trips. Hmm, who could they be....
"yeah, but you don't get the fixed payment when you are on standby, or on SEP or off sick" - What, you mean like at the moment when you get a nice B2B payment for turning up to SEP or a lovely Box payment if you are at home with the sniffles to make you feel better? That argument doesn't hold water either.
I really do despair sometimes, but the thing that gives me hope is that I have only met a couple of people like you. People who will not see reason, and will not change. It is bordering on pointless even trying with your type.
The vast, vast majority of crew however are not like you. The 13,992 of you who do not post on pprune, and the 13,900 of you that do not just spout BASSA drivel and poison on CF and BASSA forum, either just shouting down anyone who questions with statements like "Don't question the reps, they know what they are doing, trust only BASSA" or writing "Bump" on the end of some half-baked post that is just personal insult about Walsh.
Have you considered what is going to happen if you 'win' in court tomorrow? Do you think that BA are going to let all the VR crew leave? Do you think they are going to let everyone have part time? They still need to get rid of 2000 crew due to the jets parked up in the desert. Do you remember that HR1 that was filed a few months ago....
God help all the reasonable crew this Christmas, I feel very sorry for them.
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There must be some funds still available.
BA CC do NOT have a God given right to their cushy lifestyle, they have to EARN their money, just like everyone else in the industry. Bleating on about resisting imposition just because it is imposition will convince no-one.
Frankly, if BA do go down the imposition route, which I think they will, be thankful that their proposed efficiencies are so modest. The alternative is a place on the dole queue with precious few marketable skills.
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Byalphaindia #2691
Just to give some context to your point on staff fear. There are now probably enough redundant, experienced CC in Europe to replace BA's entire CC workforce. The airline has a massive waiting list of newby wannabes A strike is not a high risk event for BA. If it happens, it happens. They can break it pretty quickly using other sources of labour.
Strike action where the employer is at a clear tipping point in terms of needing to make changes, is never a good idea. The classic example is the miners in 1984. They stayed out for a year, did not manage to turn off a solitary light bulb across the country over that period, or save a solitary threatened job. They just lost a year's pay trying.
And for anyone seeing the government taking the side of "the workers", just look at how little support the striking postal workers have received. The government's response to a protracted BA strike would be to allow other airlines to replace BA's capacity. Keeping business going generally is their priority at the moment, ie generating tax revenue. They have bigger things to worry about than how many CC are on a BA jumbo.
Strike action where the employer is at a clear tipping point in terms of needing to make changes, is never a good idea. The classic example is the miners in 1984. They stayed out for a year, did not manage to turn off a solitary light bulb across the country over that period, or save a solitary threatened job. They just lost a year's pay trying.
And for anyone seeing the government taking the side of "the workers", just look at how little support the striking postal workers have received. The government's response to a protracted BA strike would be to allow other airlines to replace BA's capacity. Keeping business going generally is their priority at the moment, ie generating tax revenue. They have bigger things to worry about than how many CC are on a BA jumbo.