British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[biteme]

And I thought I had finished

Yes. I also think cabin services is so insanely innefficient it could have been done with virtually nil change to pay and no new fleet.

Care to expand?

[Hotel Mode]

Heres the inefficiency list you asked for.

Excessive crewing matrices, Inefficient turnrounds at LHR (SH) causing ridiculous numbers of extra and standby crew required, over complicated allowance structure admin, QRS, unused B2B hotac, rest requirements way past legal minima, too many supervisory crew, refusal to work outside industrial causing yet more standbys, low productivity on shorthaul, i'm sure others can think of more.

So why do so many pilots come to BA if the terms and conditions are no better than budget airlines?

Because its secure (ish), rostering is better, money is +10% and lots of people want to do long haul. It wasnt any secret that BA were struggling to find good candidates before the downturn. They weren't struggling at all to get applicants for LGW cabin crew.

[Joetom]

A few points of interest.

1/ CC T+Cs/cost will need to be reduced if the airline is here in 5 years time.

2/ The greater the reduction of 1 will leave other sections with better cards.

3/ The lower the reduction of 1 will leave other sections with a bad hand.

4/ Most sections will see T+Cs slide down over the next few years.

5/ Pensions(APS/NAPS) will be closed before April 2011.

6/ APD is a nice easy tax, don't expect it to be happy when it increases Nov2010 I think, it will grow and grow.

7/ A new name is being dreamed up now for yet another tax to be paid by airlines/passengers in the future, may be GT(green tax)

8/ UK jobless to keep rising in the near future, this will have an effect on UK people buying airline tickets.

9/ UK Pound exchange rate could have some strange effects on different various sectors in UK, a lot of guess work on this one.

10/ UK base rate to stay very low 12/24 months, it will then move very quick up for a couple of years, this will catch many people out.

All in all, the airline business could prove to be a very interesting sector to be in over the next few years, suggest a job in any Green sector is the way to go, should also be a few MP jobs avail soon.

I still wish all the CC well, but it will not be nice to watch.

[biteme]

Calm down

Some of the comments on this forum are very personal and ill informed.
Please you are educated people surely you must be able to get your point across in an amicable way.
Many CC have come on to this forum and some comments are very hurtful.
WWW you are one who could do with being a little more restrained you are not helping the cause.
Be aware this is not good for CRM

[biteme]

Heres the inefficiency list you asked for.

Excessive crewing matrices, Inefficient turnrounds at LHR (SH) causing ridiculous numbers of extra and standby crew required, over complicated allowance structure admin, QRS, unused B2B hotac, rest requirements way past legal minima, too many supervisory crew, refusal to work outside industrial causing yet more standbys, low productivity on shorthaul, i'm sure others can think of more.

I wish I had the time to look into the FC Inefficiency But hey I am not for taking things from others just protecting what I have.
That may be our difference.
I see you have some valid points and some have been addressed but WW wants far more.
Goodnight I have had enough for tonight

[1stClass]

I was just going to say, this IS beginning to have an impact on CRM. It is not good to have this 'them and us' conflict. The past has shown CRM is a must in the aviation industry and this divide isn't good. Opinions are fine but degrading the cabin crew role with remarks will not help.

Safe flying all

[Hotel Mode]

Goodnight I have had enough for tonight

We may disagree, but at least you're making some sense. Goodnight.

[Hotel Mode]

1. One can assasinate a world leader (if you're prepared to go to jail for the rest of your life, or face the death penalty)
2. One can rob a bank and spend the money (if you're prepared to face the fact that you may be caught and go to jail)
3. One can murder the wife/husband if you're prepared to do the time..

Yes and BA can sack strikers if they pay the very small penalty. Just because it's distasteful doesnt make it untrue.

[cloudn9ne]

Keirhardie you are making the incorrect assumption that previous negative posts towards the BASSA community are from BA Flight Deck!! This is a cabin crew forum moderated by CC. Just because lots of aviation types are posting on here that they disagree with your opinions and approach doeasnt mean they must be your BA FD colleagues that you seem to dispise so much at the moment.

Unfortunately the small minority of people that support Bassa's stanse on this forum dont want to listen to the majority (not just BA FD by the way) that bring a more level headed, educated and factual argument to the table. You just dont want to hear anything unless it agrees with BASSAs warped sense of reality.

WE ARE IN A RECCESSION!! bring something meaningful to the table and as a BA community sort the problem out!! You must all give something (all departments) if you want to keep your jobs and keep your company afloat in these unpresedented times!!

[flybymerchant]

We still love you!

Keirhardie

No-one on here wishes any ill to the Cabin Crew community in BA, in fact quite the opposite....most posts are rightfully tinged with sadness that the CC have been led down a dark, dead-end, career-threatening alley. Please read thread from start...

It is with the Union that have done this to you that people have a problem.

This USED to be because it was felt that the union was indirectly threatening your careers by not allowing you access to a well-rounded, balanced debate, based on truthful facts....by feeding you clear and unequivocal lies, by shielding you from ALL the facts but allowing well-known misconceptions to go uncorrected/multiply as long as it served to prey on people's existing prejudices and garner union support (look how much nigel earns!); by not gleaning information and distributing it effectively to the members, and by not allowing you to collectively vote on any of its decisions/directions on the way apart from a strike ballot that many admit to being intimidated and harrassed into 'backing'.

It USED to be because we cared for you (and still do) as colleagues and comrades....now it's because the clear and real failures of that union are ALSO threatening OUR jobs, OUR careers, OUR pensions and OUR futures.

How can the union advise you informatively if it refused to look at ALL the evidence surrounding this clearly complex and multidimensional issue and indeed skipped negotiations entirely on some days and arrived late/left early on others?

I have 3 further questions if I may:

1)When are said Union going to look at the Price Waterhouse Cooper's independently audited British Airways finances?

2)How is your union's head-in-sand refusal to look at that (UNIVERSALLY AGREED) impartial/unbiased information beneficial to you as members as you decide on the future of British Airways?

3)Is there ANY chance that totally legal strikers can be sacked and never offered their jobs back?

No-one has anything against cabin crew, you're being a little too defensive, just PLEASE don't allow your union to ruin my career!!! Please open your eyes and the eyes and ears of those around you and ask some questions of your union....how many people at Sandowne or on the Union forum ask genuinely probing and challenging questions of the union and how are those questions answered? To total satisfaction? I know I'd want AS MUCH info as possible before risking my job and the jobs of others, yet it seems the Union do not agree that you have a right to the freedom of that information.

Good luck anyways guys, please do your best to make sound, informed choices.

[Joetom]

The last few posts (10 approx) are very interesting and nice to read.

But the cold hard facts remain, the airline will not be here as most people know it now in 5 years time unless change in T+Cs for all/most sections, appears to me the CC are by far most off the "Market Rate"

I can understand why other sections show their views on this CC thread, but we should all remember it's a CC thread, please show respect.

The reductions for CC are just too big in one hit, but reductions will arrive one way or another, CC unions should be focused on the long game.

Enjoy the show !!!

Edit, due 10 prev posts appear to be getting removed as I look, but the moderators have been doing a super job like they do at all times.

[flybymerchant]

Can anyone please clarify whether or not BA have started the clock yet on the 90 days period required before it can legally terminate any employees' contracts and legally reissue NEW contracts without restraint?

Have we all already been issued this notice and has it yet expired? I feel sure it's been issued....

Thanks in advance!

[CaptAirProx]

It nearly made me gag when I heard the other day a union spokesman on an interview on the radio say "why does BA management have to be so draconian?"

Crikey - call me old fashioned and ill informed if you like - but isn't it the union that is being rather draconian - BA are trying to move with the times.

I hope that the cabin crew who are fighting this appreciate the industry has moved on - for all of us! Things ain't like it used to be.

[Skylion]

Again, could someone detail exactly what is on offer from BA? In all these pages-some of them hysterical,- nobody has yet listed what the proposed deal is, what is new, what is lost and what is kept both for existing and for new staff. Do all those screaming "No change" or "We will vote no" know what it is they are opposing?

[Desertia]

High Court

The general consensus across the media is that the injuction battle is vital for the unions to win in order to try and give the impression that their action is morally defensible. Should they lose it, then public support for them, already in tatters, would probably dwindle to nothing.

Should the BASSA oligarchy still exhort their herd to strike, my bet is that the most vociferous on here and CF in support of action will be the ones that sit back and send over the top the "little brained" ones, with big round targets on them.

And will then mutter disapprovingly and turn up for work when they realise the BA mean business this time and have plenty of alternatives, including replacement staff who'd be happy to sign a contact on the new terms. I can think of 82 cabin crew from another loss making airline who have probably already fired off their CVs to BA in the hope of getting a job relinquished by some poor misguided BASSA member.

So if I were you, Watersidewonker, I'd take that bottle of bubbly that you probably got cheap or free and stick it somewhere safe for when BA announce they are back in the black sometime around 2012/2013 - if you are lucky.

[flapsforty]

Skylion, trawling through a long thread is boring, I know.
But the proposals have been laid out on this thread.

[nurjio]

Good Morning

This thread is a belter. . If one was to distill it, then the resulting 'moonshine' would be a heady mix of mis-informed emotional claptrap and bald facts. IMHO.

May I be so bold as to direct any CC with an interest in the future of OUR airline, to re-read the recent posts of flybymerchant and JayPee28bpr (last 2 days).

Finally, can someone please answer the question of why BASSA refused to sign the Non Disclosure Agreement which would have allowed them unfettered access to the financial predicament of British Airways? To lead union members without the full facts is baffling (irresponsible) to say the very least.

[nurjio]

C'mon....WHY?

[beerdrinker]

BA's two proposals

Shy Lion,

Here is the July Offer to CC by BA followed by the Oct 6th amended offer which includes the Nov 16th change to On-board crewing:




MOA - Memorandum of Agreement


This Agreement is made between British Airways and Unite in relation to all cabin crew employed as at the date of this Agreement in all fleets ("Cabin Crew").

British Airways and Unite recognise that in order to secure BA's future and that of its employees, BA must take steps to restructure and permanently reduce its cost base.

These changes must deliver genuine, sustainable and long-term productivity improvements in the way we currently work. Both parties recognise the need for continued investment in the products that matter to our customers.

Increased competition requires that BA must be able to operate flexibly in order to improve our current productivity levels, to adapt to changing business needs going forward, and to remain competitive.

BA and Unite agree to the terms set out in this Agreement in relation to all Cabin Crew in order to achieve those aims.

Unless otherwise stated, the terms set out in this Agreement (excluding Annexes 1, 2 and 3) are intended to have contractual effect as between BA and the relevant Cabin Crew. It is not intended that the terms set out in Annexes 1, 2 and 3 will have contractual effect either between British Airways and Unite, or British Airways and Cabin Crew.

This Agreement supersedes (replaces) any other reference to these specific items in any other agreement or document. Such terms will no longer have effect and are replaced by the terms of this Agreement.

Pay

It is agreed that:

• There will be no increase in basic pay or variable pay for Cabin Crew for the next two years (i.e. until 28th February 2011).

• There will be a freeze in incremental pay rises with effect from 1 January 2010 until 31 December 2010 for those earning a basic salary of £14,500 per year or more (or the equivalent pro-rated salary for part-time Cabin Crew).

• The next pay review will be in February 2011 when BA will review basic pay, variable pay, and incremental pay increases, taking into account all relevant circumstances, including but not limited to, company performance and employee productivity.


Operational Recovery Procedure

The current Worldwide Disruption Agreement will be replaced with immediate effect with the following Operational Recovery Procedure which will apply to all fleets.

The overriding principle of the Operational Recovery Procedure is to put the ‘Customer first‘ in the event of any disruption to British Airways' planned schedule or other operations. This requires all employees and unions to adopt a flexible approach to their normal working arrangements in order to resolve any disruption to operations as soon as possible.

BA may invoke the ‘Operational Recovery Procedure‘ at any time when BA considers that planned schedules or other operations have been disrupted for any reason. Once invoked, and notwithstanding any other contractual provisions otherwise applicable to unions or Cabin Crew, British Airways may take such steps, and require Cabin Crew to take such steps and perform such duties, as it considers appropriate to resolve the disruption. Such steps may include, but are not limited to, the following:

• Re-plan and re-route services to repatriate our Customers.

• Cabin Crew may be required to vary their scheduled roster and to undertake such additional or different duties as may be required to continue to provide our services.

• Use 24 hour availability with 12 hours' notice to call forward Cabin Crew in order to gap fill.

• Restrict Eurofleet Cabin Crew from requesting 18 hours off in the event of a delay.

• Contact Cabin Crew at home to advise of a roster changes during disruption.

• Introduction of Willing-to Work.

• Operate with reduced crew complements.

In implementing the Operation Recovery Procedure BA will take reasonable steps where practicable to minimise the impact on Cabin Crew's normal working patterns. The terms of Cabin Crew's contracts will be deemed to have been varied temporarily during the period of disruption in order to comply with such steps as BA requires pursuant to this Operational Recovery Procedure. BA will continue to comply with scheme limits.

The use of the Operational Recovery Procedure in respect of any particular disruption will be reviewed, jointly with the Trade Unions, at the appropriate fleet Steering group after the period of disruption.


Crew complements

BA and Unite agree that BA has the right at its sole discretion to vary on a temporary or permanent basis the crew complements for all aircraft at any time and relevant service standards. BA will consult with Unite in relation to any proposed changes to crew complements unless such consultation is impracticable for operational reasons, in which case BA will inform Unite of such changes as soon as reasonably practicable.

Notwithstanding the terms of Section 9 of the Worldwide Scheduling Agreement, Section 7 of the Eurofleet Cabin Crew Manual, and any other applicable existing terms, Cabin Crew may be required to work in a higher or lower grade as appropriate as a result of any change to crew complements and related service standards. Cabin Crew will comply with such service standards and guidelines applicable to the relevant flight, as varied by BA from time to time.

Annex 1 details changes to crew complements which BA will introduce with effect from 1 September 2009.


Ground Productivity

Unite acknowledges the need to improve ground productivity so as to achieve greater general crew productivity, whilst minimising the impact on BA's customers. BA and Unite agree to vary the Worldwide Agreement, Eurofleet Agreement, and any other relevant existing terms as set out below. BA will continue to comply with scheme requirements.

Worldwide – Rest Downroute
• Worldwide Cabin Crew will no longer be entitled to 2 local nights rest on any non-long range or long-range routes.

Early Day report
Early day report will be amended to allow a trip to be allocated from 06:01 onwards.

Eurofleet - Finish Time
• The latest planned off duty time for Eurofleet Cabin Crew prior to a day off shall be extended to 22:00hrs for all blocks of 5 days or less, including but not limited to, Cabin Crew on 'standby' or 'available' status.

Eurofleet - Reduction in Days off (variable days off – bidding group)
• The current entitlement to days off for all Eurofleet Cabin Crew in the bidding group will be replaced with a flat entitlement of 9 planned days off each calendar month for full time cabin crew (pro-rated for part time Cabin Crew).

Integrated Approach

Unite acknowledges that BA proposes to introduce a new contract and new terms and conditions, for all newly-recruited main crew and all future promotions to senior grades. Such terms will be notified to Unite in due course. For the purposes of information only, the terms which BA currently proposes to introduce are set out in Annex 3. This term is not intended to have contractual effect.

Fleet Transfers and Opportunities

Unite acknowledges that BA must make significant headcount reductions. BA proposes to follow the procedure set out in Annex 2 in trying to achieve those reductions. For the avoidance of doubt, that process is not intended to have contractual effect between BA, Unite and the relevant employees.

Euro fleet productivity
British Airways are willing to explore with the trade union the future use of the current B767 aircraft on Worldwide moving to Euro Fleet to be operated under a new Euro Fleet agreement. This term is not intended to have contractual effect.

New Fixed Monthly Duty Payment replacing variable allowances
- A fixed element of pay will be introduced to be paid as part of the monthly pay, replacing variable allowances.
- The payment will be subject to a deduction calculated on a daily basis for all non flying related duties and sickness.
- The additional payment will replace the following;


World Wide
Long Range Premiums (box payments)
Back To Back Payments

Destination Payments

Extra Time Payments
Time Away Allowance
Telephone Allowance





Eurofleet


Long Day Payments


Extra Time Payment
Base Early Report
Telephone Allowance

Annex 1

Crew Complements

The following changes to crew complements will be introduced with effect from 1 September 2009:

• One purser position will be removed from all Worldwide flights (747, 777, 767). Worldwide CSDs will be included in the customer service routines.

• One purser position will be replaced with a main crew member on 777 3-class aircraft at Gatwick, consistent with Heathrow.

• The additional main crew member position will be removed from Heathrow long range routes and other additional crew member routes (currently 12 destinations).

• A single supervisor will be used on all Eurofleet flights, and will either be a CSD or a purser. The work will be balanced between these grades.

• The crew complements on Eurofleet flights will be varied to make them consistent with those currently operated at Gatwick



Annex 2

Proposed approach to target headcount reductions

BA hopes to achieve the target headcount reductions through crew taking up offers of part-time contracts and voluntary redundancy.

The proposed process is as follows:

• Permanent part-time contracts, subject to operational limits
- Completion of existing part-time lists (All bases) (4678 Crew), subject to operational limits

- Register for new part-time list (All bases) 50% & 75% contracts – closed 21st June 09 (707 Crew), subject to operational limits
- Register for new part-time list (Heathrow only) 33% contracts – opens 1st July 09 (To a max of 150 Crew operating on this contract in total at any given time)

• Voluntary redundancy for all UK permanent crew effective 30th Sept 09, subject to operational limits and selection criteria
- Best offer opportunity
- Maximum of 52 weeks
- Registration of interest closed 21st June (3722 Crew)

• Transfer into Heathrow Eurofleet & Worldwide for existing Heathrow crew only
- Subject to take up of voluntary redundancy & part-time offers and operational review
- Existing transfer list only
- No further permanent recruitment or permanent transfers into LHR on the existing Heathrow crew contract, following closure of the list after the review.


In addition to offers of part-time contracts and voluntary redundancy, once BA has understood the level of interest in these opportunities, BA will review transfers between Eurofleet and Worldwide for crew at Heathrow who are already on the existing transfer list. There will be no further recruitment or permanent transfers into Heathrow on the existing crew contracts, following this review and the consequent closure of the existing transfer list.



Annex 3

Integrated Approach for crew joining the Air Cabin Crew NSP on or after x date and those moving within the NSP following the review of the existing opportunities and choice transfer list, which closed on x date


The following are the key terms which BA is currently considering in respect of new recruits and promotions to senior positions. Full terms and conditions are yet to be finalised by BA.

• New rates of pay and terms and conditions
• There are further changes to the current operating agreements
• Single on-board management grade
• No seniority
• Promotion on merit
• Elapsed hourly rate
• Market rate + 10%
• Performance related pay & bonus



October 6, 2009

Dear Colleague


As you know we have been in discussions with Unite on how we will deliver IFCE’s £140m contribution to the savings our company needs to make.

Throughout all of our consultations and negotiations, many of you have told me you understand the need to remove cost and, like me, you want this to be achieved through voluntary means wherever possible. I want to minimise the impact on you, our current crew. And we all share a passion for continuing to provide excellent service to our customers.

Unfortunately, we have not yet been able to reach an agreement with Unite on how we do this and after nine months of talks, the time has come for us to move forward.

While we have consulted with the union at length on this and I had hoped they would support us, the changes we are now introducing will not alter contractual terms and conditions for individual cabin crew.

Achieving savings voluntarily

Everyone who has applied for voluntary redundancy will be able to leave between th30 November and 15 December 2009.

In addition many of you have requested permanent part time contracts and I am pleased to let you know that we will now be able to accept more of these requests. We will begin contacting people registered on the part time lists shortly.

We will also begin actioning transfer requests for Heathrow based crew only, beginning with Eurofleet CSDs who want to move to Worldwide and Worldwide Pursers who wish to move to Eurofleet.

How we will make our savings, while minimising the impact on you, our current crew

We can make these savings and minimise the impact on you, by changing our crew complements. From 16 November 2009 we will make the following changes while still ensuring that our crewing levels can deliver our premium customer service.

Worldwide – effective from 16 November

* One purser position will be removed from all Heathrow Worldwide flights (747,777,767). At the same time, all Worldwide CSDs will join the customer service routines allowing us to keep the same number of crew who are directly serving our customers onboard

* Removal of the additional main crew member on Heathrow long range routes and additional crew member routes Eurofleet - effective from 1 December:

* The crew complements on Eurofleet flights will be varied to make them consistent with those currently operated at Gatwick


* The use of a single supervisor on all Eurofleet flights, either a CSD or a purser, balancing the work between these grades Gatwick – effective from 1 December:

* One purser position will be replaced with a main crew member on 777 3-class aircraft at Gatwick, consistent with Heathrow.

Pay

Pay talks have not yet concluded, but as I’ve said before, we are planning a two-year freeze on base pay for all crew, until March 2011, in line with other areas of the business. We are no longer planning on freezing increments and, most importantly, as promised there are no plans for a pay cut.

Savings from future crew

The proposal to mix future crew with current crew would have required significant changes for you.

I’ve listened to your feedback and I will now look to make savings from future crew at Heathrow, who will join a separate new fleet. These crew will be rostered and will fly separately from you on new terms and conditions. We do not envisage any new crew joining BA until the business begins to grow again.

What are we not doing, after listening to your feedback

This simplified approach, including a separate new fleet, means I will not be introducing any of the following changes previously proposed for current crew. There will be:

* no reduced nights downroute at worldwide destinations

* no change to days off at base for Eurofleet

* no transferral of the B767 fleet to Eurofleet

* no change to early day report for worldwide

* no change to the finishing times for Eurofleet

* no company changes to your variable pay and allowances

* no pay cut

* no increment freeze

New opportunities for you

Taking this voluntary approach to people reductions will create the following new opportunities for personal development and work life balance:

* Worldwide Purser promotion to CSD on current terms and conditions

* Opening up a new list for 33% permanent part time contracts – available to all grades of Heathrow crew

Next steps

I hope that as you read through this letter you will see that these necessary changes hold firm to my principle of minimising the impacts on you as current crew. I hope you will also see that while we have not been able to reach a final agreement with your trade union, we have listened to the points they made during our consultation meetings. Having listened to them, and to your replies to our crew questionnaire, we have moved away from our original proposals to a plan that meets many of the points made in the consultation.

Over the next few days I will write to you individually with more information. My management team and I will continue to be available to listen to your feedback and answer any questions.

There is one item that requires further discussion with the union, namely a revised arrangement for disruption, which puts our customers first. Given the urgency of the business situation we will continue to be available at any time and on any day in order to continue our discussions. The next planned meeting is on 14 October.

I look forward to us being able to move forward with this new, simplified and voluntary approach to savings that also allow many of you to take voluntary redundancy or part time contracts. Thank you for your continued professionalism and service to our customers.

Regards

Bill Francis

Head of IFCE

[Desertia]

And what's so bad about it?

Remind me which bits of that are the ones to which the BASSA uberfuhrers are so vehemently opposed that they refused to negotiate?