British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Eddy wrote "BA has been looking for permanent solutions to a temporary problem and our reps have been battling against management who, as time went on, seemed less interested in making savings and more interested in bringing about an end to Bassa" (my italics)
and therein lies the rub - if there was negotiation from Bassa rather than battling ,would things have been different now?
and therein lies the rub - if there was negotiation from Bassa rather than battling ,would things have been different now?
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Originally Posted by Mr Bunker
Eddy,
If your username and location is correct I'm pretty sure I know you and that you're a thoughtful and erudite individual.
If your username and location is correct I'm pretty sure I know you and that you're a thoughtful and erudite individual.
Originally Posted by Sporran
Eddy,
You are obviously loyal to BASSA, but..... appear to be sensible and reasonable.
You are obviously loyal to BASSA, but..... appear to be sensible and reasonable.
I've fallen out with a lot of people in the past because I haven't been prepared to immediately jump on the Bassa bandwagon but while, in the end, Bassa will basically get my support 100% of the time, I want to know exactly what I'm dealing with before I get down off any fences.
I'm a big fan of civilised debate and am impressed at how this thread seems to have maintained that theme given the almighty ruckus some threads on this forum descend into from time to time - particularly ones relating to BA cabin crew.
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Originally Posted by From Tunbridge Wells
and therein lies the rub - if there was negotiation from Bassa rather than battling ,would things have been different now?
EDIT : Why on earth is there no "quote" button here anymore?
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Where do I start on this one?
The imposition email contains pretty much what I expected. Most crew now talk about that this is just the beginning, which according to the email from the LT, is true. Next on the agenda is a disruption agreement, which is long overdue (as well as the rest of the issues).
Other forums have descended into a kindergarden playground. Anyone trying to question what's happened or what will happen next is told to but a cork in it and support their union and reps. Some of the questions and wishes for clarification are sensible and I understand why these issues have been raised. Any clarification from the union as to what happens next? Not a chance.
People are now getting into a tizz as to when a ballot will be issued. Some think a ballot can be issued asap, some think the union has to wait until the 16th. A clarification from the reps would be helpful at this point, although I'm not sure whether I can actually believe anything that comes out of their mouths at present (not that I've believed much they've said in the last few months anyway).
Some crew claim there's no way they can complete the service with reduced crew levels and the CSD being integrated into the service routine. The company knows what happens at LGW, and will plainly tell them to get on with it.
If only Bassa could've negotiated properly, hired a number crunching individual who understand accounts and also been less emotional about this whole issue, we may have had a different result now.
The last 3 talks days were no use whatsoever, as the Bassa reps refused to sit in the same room as a certain Amicus rep. BA clearly stated they wanted both parts of the union in the room to be able to hold talks, to no avail. Seriously, this is ridiculous behaviour from "adults". Acting like children at this crucial stage of talks is unbelieveable. Especially considering that when the company has talked to Amicus reps (when Bassa didn't turn up), the whole Bassa militant group shouted that it wasn't fair. Make up your minds, guys. This isn't the time or place to be stalling.
With this imposition it proves that putting fingers in ears and refusing to listen will not work this time. WW is not scared of Bassa, and Bassa have proven themselves to be pretty much useless in this whole excercise.
Gg
The imposition email contains pretty much what I expected. Most crew now talk about that this is just the beginning, which according to the email from the LT, is true. Next on the agenda is a disruption agreement, which is long overdue (as well as the rest of the issues).
Other forums have descended into a kindergarden playground. Anyone trying to question what's happened or what will happen next is told to but a cork in it and support their union and reps. Some of the questions and wishes for clarification are sensible and I understand why these issues have been raised. Any clarification from the union as to what happens next? Not a chance.
People are now getting into a tizz as to when a ballot will be issued. Some think a ballot can be issued asap, some think the union has to wait until the 16th. A clarification from the reps would be helpful at this point, although I'm not sure whether I can actually believe anything that comes out of their mouths at present (not that I've believed much they've said in the last few months anyway).
Some crew claim there's no way they can complete the service with reduced crew levels and the CSD being integrated into the service routine. The company knows what happens at LGW, and will plainly tell them to get on with it.
If only Bassa could've negotiated properly, hired a number crunching individual who understand accounts and also been less emotional about this whole issue, we may have had a different result now.
The last 3 talks days were no use whatsoever, as the Bassa reps refused to sit in the same room as a certain Amicus rep. BA clearly stated they wanted both parts of the union in the room to be able to hold talks, to no avail. Seriously, this is ridiculous behaviour from "adults". Acting like children at this crucial stage of talks is unbelieveable. Especially considering that when the company has talked to Amicus reps (when Bassa didn't turn up), the whole Bassa militant group shouted that it wasn't fair. Make up your minds, guys. This isn't the time or place to be stalling.
With this imposition it proves that putting fingers in ears and refusing to listen will not work this time. WW is not scared of Bassa, and Bassa have proven themselves to be pretty much useless in this whole excercise.
Gg
Last edited by Glamgirl; 7th Oct 2009 at 21:51. Reason: typo
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Was wondering where you were, Glamgirl. Your perspective is very interesting and enlightened as always.
The tale of the refusal to sit in the same room is staggering given the circumstances. BASSA have been comprehensively outmanouevered and it isn't over yet.
I wonder what the atmosphere will be like on my long-haul trip tomorrow?
The tale of the refusal to sit in the same room is staggering given the circumstances. BASSA have been comprehensively outmanouevered and it isn't over yet.
I wonder what the atmosphere will be like on my long-haul trip tomorrow?
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With all the VR and vol' part timers now, what is the estimate for the first course of ex temps back in the new fleet??
I'll start with mid/late Feb 2010,running continuous. ready for the summer !!
I'll start with mid/late Feb 2010,running continuous. ready for the summer !!
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Overstress,
I've been here, but biding my time...
Things will get very interesting in the next few days/weeks. The atmosphere on your trip tomorrow won't be the best, I suspect, unfortunately. Hopefully all this mess doesn't mean that the crew forget what they're onboard to do. I'm hoping that they'll remember to be professional and not mention anything on board the aircraft in front of passengers.
Gg
I've been here, but biding my time...
Things will get very interesting in the next few days/weeks. The atmosphere on your trip tomorrow won't be the best, I suspect, unfortunately. Hopefully all this mess doesn't mean that the crew forget what they're onboard to do. I'm hoping that they'll remember to be professional and not mention anything on board the aircraft in front of passengers.
Gg
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Originally Posted by ltn and beyond
With all the VR and vol' part timers now, what is the estimate for the first course of ex temps back in the new fleet??
I'll start with mid/late Feb 2010,running continuous. ready for the summer !!
I'll start with mid/late Feb 2010,running continuous. ready for the summer !!
Originally Posted by GlamGirl
Hopefully all this mess doesn't mean that the crew forget what they're onboard to do. I'm hoping that they'll remember to be professional and not mention anything on board the aircraft in front of passengers.
We've all been in this situation before and we've never let it impact on the service we give to our customers. Why would this time be any different?
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That's a bit of a silly post. What do you expect crew to be doing?
We've all been in this situation before and we've never let it impact on the service we give to our customers. Why would this time be any different?
We've all been in this situation before and we've never let it impact on the service we give to our customers. Why would this time be any different?
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment and the fact that the vast majority of crew will agree, there are some that will feel they need to 'rock the boat' as a diminutive Labour politician once famously did.
During the last great in growing toe nail dispute, on Short Haul, there were definitively surly faces in the cabin which was detrimental both to the passengers and to those crew who, like yourself, wanted to project their professionalism.
We shall see.
Keeping my fingers crossed.
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Originally Posted by wobble2plank
During the last great in growing toe nail dispute, on Short Haul, there were definitively surly faces in the cabin
Fortunately it's only a minority, but even when things are running smoothely there are always a few surly faces out in the cabin. The same can be said of any airline.
I don't think these problems make things any worse. Indeed, in many cases I think industrial unrest makes things better as many crew recognise the need to pull together and keeo our customers on-side.
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FT Lex Column
This is the Lex Column's view of the proposed changes to BA CC work patterns. I think it shows quite succinctly the serious inefficiencies within BA's model versus a range of other carriers. Somehow those inefficiencies have to be addressed if BA is to enjoy adequate operating margins even after any recovery in the overall air travel market.
FT.com / Lex / Transport & Infrastructure - British Airways
FT.com / Lex / Transport & Infrastructure - British Airways
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Interesting article, especially when viewed side by side with the BA imposition.
Funny, that's what most people outside of the BASSA inner circle think.
My bold, odd again, especially as LGW have proven that, although tiring, 900 hours are achievable. Perhaps with concerted negotiation a happy middle ground could have been found?
New Fleet, new contract anyone?
From a reporter, writer and economist at the Financial Times and totally independant from the Beelzebub management at BA ! Perhaps BASSA can slander, denigrate or otherwise malign this person as having no clue?
The bold is to highlight 'Industry' not company but industry!
Perhaps now BASSA will realise that its approach of 'No, No, No' has failed, the management have been telling the unions for the past 4 months since the deadline that imposition was coming and still, unlike all the other unions, have failed to come to the table with something meaningful, useful and workable.
Sad.
The union’s response to cost cuts is puzzling, particularly given the poor productivity of Heathrow-based cabin crew.
Crew can legally accrue up to 900 flying hours per year; a work rate that discounters Ryanair and EasyJet regard as normal. BA’s Heathrow staff, however, only work about 600 hours a year.
Furthermore, unlike those for Gatwick staff, rules for Heathrow crew make switching staff between short-haul and long-haul flights difficult. This obstacle can leave a short-haul plane understaffed, while long-haul crew idle in another.
BA’s crew problems are deep-rooted. The carrier may have been privatised in 1987, but indexed and longevity-based pay rises still haunt contracts. The union has previously made an offer to BA to save about £140m, but it should accept that the premium airline industry is listing heavily to starboard. It needs to do something more substantial to help.
The bold is to highlight 'Industry' not company but industry!
Perhaps now BASSA will realise that its approach of 'No, No, No' has failed, the management have been telling the unions for the past 4 months since the deadline that imposition was coming and still, unlike all the other unions, have failed to come to the table with something meaningful, useful and workable.
Sad.
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Eddy
That may be the truth, but aren't there alot of potential cabin crew in the holding pool, or whatever it is called. I suggest they would be the ones that come in and take up the slack, perhaps be the start of the mixed fleet?
Mr. Francis has said that there are absolutely no immediate plans to be recruiting any new staff. I assume this refers to both temps on existing payscales and new entrants on new fleet contracts. Time will tell, though.
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The union has previously made an offer to BA to save about £140m
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I see the unfounded and untrue rumour about the BA funded pilot's black tie ball is now gathering pace on CF. This is the kind of stuff that a responsible union would put to bed but it seems it suits some in the community to allow divisive lies to fester within that community in order to stoke up ill feeling.
For anyone from CF that cares, we had a few leaving drinks with the guys on the 9th Sep at the Sipson Holiday Inn. The food and subsidised beers were paid for by the guys who are leaving and the hotel offered a discount. No input whatsoever from BA, apart from a couple of managers who kindly bought some beers for individuals out of their own pockets. At the end of the day, I can assure anyone who thinks we've got a cosy relationship with BA that is unique only to the pilot work group, it's the same for all of us. All expenditure in BA, pretty much down to an individual pen has to be passed by BA centre at the moment, they just ain't going to pay for a central london hotel bash for us. And BALPA would much rather any money available for that sort of thing was used to sort out our deficits.
Still, why let the truth get in the way of a good "crewmour"? (lovely word, well chosen for the chap on CF who used it).
For anyone from CF that cares, we had a few leaving drinks with the guys on the 9th Sep at the Sipson Holiday Inn. The food and subsidised beers were paid for by the guys who are leaving and the hotel offered a discount. No input whatsoever from BA, apart from a couple of managers who kindly bought some beers for individuals out of their own pockets. At the end of the day, I can assure anyone who thinks we've got a cosy relationship with BA that is unique only to the pilot work group, it's the same for all of us. All expenditure in BA, pretty much down to an individual pen has to be passed by BA centre at the moment, they just ain't going to pay for a central london hotel bash for us. And BALPA would much rather any money available for that sort of thing was used to sort out our deficits.
Still, why let the truth get in the way of a good "crewmour"? (lovely word, well chosen for the chap on CF who used it).
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w2p - #1931
I agree with your assessment. The only words of caution I'd add are that the Lex article is very similar to much of BA's own comments on matters, suggesting that the article was written following a briefing from the company. Having said that, Lex has a very powerful reputation, not least because Lex writers are very happy to rubbish managements that they do not agree with.
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I know it's thread creep, but forgive me, I too was at the 'leaving do' described by Mr Bunker and as I know the retired Capt who organised it very well, I can also vouch for the fact that it was all bought & paid for by the retirees.
It was beer and a buffet, not an all-expenses black tie do 'paid for by the company'.
I only post this to add emphasis to the fact that there are some cabin crew whose agenda is furthered by the spread of this nonsense, and who would be better served by asking their BASSA reps some very hard questions.
It was beer and a buffet, not an all-expenses black tie do 'paid for by the company'.
I only post this to add emphasis to the fact that there are some cabin crew whose agenda is furthered by the spread of this nonsense, and who would be better served by asking their BASSA reps some very hard questions.
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Mr. Francis has said that there are absolutely no immediate plans to be recruiting any new staff. I assume this refers to both temps on existing payscales and new entrants on new fleet contracts. Time will tell, though.
My guess is you will start to see CC recruitment onto the new fleet in the early spring but as you say, time will tell.
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Aer Lingus
Interesting to compare the proposed BA changes with those from Aer Lingus, admittedly the benchmark of basket case airline operations at the moment.
Most interesting is the fact that the Aer Lingus proposals have been endorsed by the head of Ireland's trade union movement, who is a Director of the airline. It's amazing what the imposition of fiduciary duties can achieve!
There are some draconian measures proposed at Aer Lingus, as well as a few hundred more crew (flight and cabin) entering the jobs market.
FT.com / Companies / Airlines - Aer Lingus job loss plan sparks union fury
Most interesting is the fact that the Aer Lingus proposals have been endorsed by the head of Ireland's trade union movement, who is a Director of the airline. It's amazing what the imposition of fiduciary duties can achieve!
There are some draconian measures proposed at Aer Lingus, as well as a few hundred more crew (flight and cabin) entering the jobs market.
FT.com / Companies / Airlines - Aer Lingus job loss plan sparks union fury