British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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radical thought?
1st post after lurking for a few months on here to try and advise the other half how to go on the vote.
We all have to acknowledge that (according to this thread) around 75% of cabin crew are on what BA and community call "new Contract" other half certainly is.
So, radical as it seems, and bearing in mind that "old contract" actually agreed to let "new contact" suffer in 1997 (sic?) why not have a flat playing field and move everyone onto the base rates of those joining post 1997?
This will certainly save the company money and it would most definately sort out those who are within BASSA for themselves or the community.
On another point... I saw the "intent to ballot notice" - well, a glaring hole in it ... and I'm not telling.
Standing by for abuse!
We all have to acknowledge that (according to this thread) around 75% of cabin crew are on what BA and community call "new Contract" other half certainly is.
So, radical as it seems, and bearing in mind that "old contract" actually agreed to let "new contact" suffer in 1997 (sic?) why not have a flat playing field and move everyone onto the base rates of those joining post 1997?
This will certainly save the company money and it would most definately sort out those who are within BASSA for themselves or the community.
On another point... I saw the "intent to ballot notice" - well, a glaring hole in it ... and I'm not telling.
Standing by for abuse!
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With regard to the pensions 'hole'.
Much of it has been driven by changes driven by law to what can be invested in....
However BA also may be partly to blame as they took a "pensions Holiday" for many years, reducing the money input has helped lead to the current shortfalls!!
But no doubt, they will want the current staff and pensioners to 'pay' again for their greed.
Much of it has been driven by changes driven by law to what can be invested in....
However BA also may be partly to blame as they took a "pensions Holiday" for many years, reducing the money input has helped lead to the current shortfalls!!
But no doubt, they will want the current staff and pensioners to 'pay' again for their greed.
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On another point... I saw the "intent to ballot notice" - well, a glaring hole in it ... and I'm not telling.
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WW will introduce New Fleet regardless of any outcome .
As i have said before in 1990 when 767 fleet started up on a mixed flying agreement the BASSA spin started .Don't transfer on to this fleet we will NOT represent you blah blah blah .
Cabin Crew from other fleets did transfer new entrants were recruited the fleet was up and running .Of course it grew and grew eventually changing it's name to Midfleet .Lots of crew on shortahaul/longhaul who had done about six years started to transfer after being invited for promotion to PSR/CSD.
BASSA spin stopped all of a sudden they were defeated and they were representing crew on Midfleet. Agreements had prevented cabin crew on shorthaul from being promoted they had to wait 14 yrs before being considered for PSR.
As a previous poster has already pointed out 75% of crew are on the current new contract introduced in 1997.Now it's time to recruit the next lot under a diffrent set of terms and conditions .BA will get crew onto the New Fleet offering promotion or will probably recruit direct entry SCCM.
Fact is here BASSA have blown it for cabin crew big time .
As i have said before in 1990 when 767 fleet started up on a mixed flying agreement the BASSA spin started .Don't transfer on to this fleet we will NOT represent you blah blah blah .
Cabin Crew from other fleets did transfer new entrants were recruited the fleet was up and running .Of course it grew and grew eventually changing it's name to Midfleet .Lots of crew on shortahaul/longhaul who had done about six years started to transfer after being invited for promotion to PSR/CSD.
BASSA spin stopped all of a sudden they were defeated and they were representing crew on Midfleet. Agreements had prevented cabin crew on shorthaul from being promoted they had to wait 14 yrs before being considered for PSR.
As a previous poster has already pointed out 75% of crew are on the current new contract introduced in 1997.Now it's time to recruit the next lot under a diffrent set of terms and conditions .BA will get crew onto the New Fleet offering promotion or will probably recruit direct entry SCCM.
Fact is here BASSA have blown it for cabin crew big time .
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Grow up
As an ex employee, how sad to see how insular and naive some of the views have been over the last week. All companies are facing changes to pension arrangements not because of bad management or investments, but because we're all living longer! There still seems to be people who think BA is the number one choice for customer service. How far from the truth that is, with so many other options now available at better value and without the ever present threat of industrial action.
BA cabin crew need to wake up and realise they're endangering 30,000 plus jobs...j.
BA cabin crew need to wake up and realise they're endangering 30,000 plus jobs...j.
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Forgive me if I am wrong but as I see it and being one of the many non BA personnel who are looking at this from the outside is that if BA CC strike then thats about it for BA. The National Carriers are on their knees for the moment , not just BA, but others world-wide. They would be opening the doors for Easyjet and Ryanair, and there are plenty of CC jobs with them. The final nail in the coffin for Sabena was strike action and look what happened to them ................. just an outsiders point of view.
One thing is for sure you do not have the peoples support..... some of us would be sad to see the demise of BA....
One thing is for sure you do not have the peoples support..... some of us would be sad to see the demise of BA....
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FlyingSpanner wrote
You are factually incorrect
While BA did take a Pensions Holiday from APS, they have never taken one from NAPS. The holiday they took from APS was because the fund was over-funded (those were the days) and they were not allowed by law to pay any more into the fund until the surplus was reduced.
Don't forget also that BA improved the benefits for all in about 1989 when the funds were in good shape.
The growth in the defecit in APS is concerning, as because the investment strategy for APS is more limited than for NAPS, as the majority of APS members are active pensioners whereas for NAPS the majority are either still working or are deferred.
However BA also may be partly to blame as they took a "pensions Holiday" for many years, reducing the money input has helped lead to the current shortfalls!!
While BA did take a Pensions Holiday from APS, they have never taken one from NAPS. The holiday they took from APS was because the fund was over-funded (those were the days) and they were not allowed by law to pay any more into the fund until the surplus was reduced.
Don't forget also that BA improved the benefits for all in about 1989 when the funds were in good shape.
The growth in the defecit in APS is concerning, as because the investment strategy for APS is more limited than for NAPS, as the majority of APS members are active pensioners whereas for NAPS the majority are either still working or are deferred.
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The sad thing is quite a lot of crew do think they have public support.
I do feel sorry for some cabin crew who are caught up in this nightmare.
Sadly now this is just the start. WW will now keep going.
WW has support from the public,media,shareholders,plus all the other departments in BA are up in arms about this.
I do feel sorry for some cabin crew who are caught up in this nightmare.
Sadly now this is just the start. WW will now keep going.
WW has support from the public,media,shareholders,plus all the other departments in BA are up in arms about this.
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All those that think this is not about money are mistaken. Even if it is about removal of a union, that in itself is about money. Arguing about how much money BASSA did or did not offer the company, is a total red-herring. The fact of the matter is that BASSA were only ever suggesting that the cabin crew give BA a loan because they wanted the money back at the end of the business plan. BASSA could have offered BA £500m on that basis, and it would still not have been what they were looking for. BA need huge loans to pay for new aircraft, they will only get those loans if they achieve these cost savings on an ongoing basis. It is not about short term cost savings, it is about the long term. This is why the current impositions do not reap huge immediate savings, BA are after the long term ie new fleet. BASSA would be better focusing their energies on negotiating terms to protect their current members against this little gem (eg fixed monthly allowance system rather than the current trip dependent lottery). New fleet or something similar is coming whether BASSA likes it or not - it would be wise to exercise some damage limitation whilst you still can.
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Pensions
I know this is a deviation from the thread but we seem to be kicking it around anyway.
Is there anyone who can explain to me what happens if the NAPS scheme is closed to existing members. Do we get back our 'pot' to reinvest, do we keep the pension we've acrued so far or is there another scenario. To my shame I have not investigated this possiblility thus far and I feel,in light of the Sunday papers, that I should prepare for the likelihood.
Is there anyone who can explain to me what happens if the NAPS scheme is closed to existing members. Do we get back our 'pot' to reinvest, do we keep the pension we've acrued so far or is there another scenario. To my shame I have not investigated this possiblility thus far and I feel,in light of the Sunday papers, that I should prepare for the likelihood.
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Top Bunk
You beat me to it.
A £1billion is a large deficit for APS, but it may be interesting to know what percentage of underfunding this represents.
The same goes for NAPS.
It would also be interesting to know when the snapshot was taken.
Another sad thing is that the Maxwell scandal caused the funding arrangement rules to be changed, I think.
You beat me to it.
A £1billion is a large deficit for APS, but it may be interesting to know what percentage of underfunding this represents.
The same goes for NAPS.
It would also be interesting to know when the snapshot was taken.
Another sad thing is that the Maxwell scandal caused the funding arrangement rules to be changed, I think.
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ottergirl
I haven't read the Sunday newspapers (don't even get the weekday Times, two days late, in Finland any more - no demand when I asked) so I may be writing nonsense.
I am surprised that senior cabin crew are responsible for, in some people's opinion, trying to take the company down.
Most will be on the old contract and are probably in APS/NAPS and really should think twice about rocking the boat.
I suspect, if APS/NAPS are closed to current active members you will have the option of keeping the benefits you have accrued until now and then moving to a different scheme.
You may be given a buyout option of your accrued benefits but there are probably rules/laws governing how these situations are handled.
The short answer is I don't know.
I haven't read the Sunday newspapers (don't even get the weekday Times, two days late, in Finland any more - no demand when I asked) so I may be writing nonsense.
I am surprised that senior cabin crew are responsible for, in some people's opinion, trying to take the company down.
Most will be on the old contract and are probably in APS/NAPS and really should think twice about rocking the boat.
I suspect, if APS/NAPS are closed to current active members you will have the option of keeping the benefits you have accrued until now and then moving to a different scheme.
You may be given a buyout option of your accrued benefits but there are probably rules/laws governing how these situations are handled.
The short answer is I don't know.
Last edited by finncapt; 20th Dec 2009 at 12:01. Reason: spelt ottergirl wrong
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Posted by Bearpit
There still seems to be people who think BA is the number one choice for customer service. How far from the truth that is, with so many other options now available at better value and without the ever present threat of industrial action.
BA cabin crew need to wake up and realise they're endangering 30,000 plus jobs...j.
There still seems to be people who think BA is the number one choice for customer service. How far from the truth that is, with so many other options now available at better value and without the ever present threat of industrial action.
BA cabin crew need to wake up and realise they're endangering 30,000 plus jobs...j.
As BA Cabin Crew, I personally have never said the we are the No 1 choice for customer service.
I've always maintained that airlines like JAL and Singapore are excellent. I have to add that I have worked with some exceptional people in BA all across the airline.
In my observations when flying with our competitors, BA cabin crew are great when it comes to thinking outside the the box. However, when we are bad we're rubbish, but when we're good we're exceptional and unbeatable. Occasionally, I'm overwhelmed by the brilliance of our people in BA, even today.
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above are my personal views and not those of my employer's.
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Pensions
As a cynic, the pension problem may have been solved, at a stroke, if the government's original doomsaying of the numbers dying of swine flu came/come true.
In other words it looks bad for pension funds at the moment but we do not know where we will be many years from now.
Must say I think the same about climate warming and the last couple of weeks junket of politicians spending our, the taxpayers, money.
As a cynic, the pension problem may have been solved, at a stroke, if the government's original doomsaying of the numbers dying of swine flu came/come true.
In other words it looks bad for pension funds at the moment but we do not know where we will be many years from now.
Must say I think the same about climate warming and the last couple of weeks junket of politicians spending our, the taxpayers, money.
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The deficit in the pension schemes in the UK are wholly down to the government who will not allow the schemes to be overfunded during the good times (if they do there taxed ) which in turn will always change to a large deficits in the bad times.
If a company fails its not automatic that the scheme will be covered by government if it has sufficient funding (read the small print),however anyone who thinks another 4 years of this lot will improve their pensions or saving pots needs to have their heads examined.
If a company fails its not automatic that the scheme will be covered by government if it has sufficient funding (read the small print),however anyone who thinks another 4 years of this lot will improve their pensions or saving pots needs to have their heads examined.
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1) BA pilots have a specific 'Scope' agreement. This prevents BA using non BA pilots to fly any a/c (more than 100 seats) into or out of London.
BASSA have no such agreement.
BASSA have no such agreement.
Now, you obviusly have not read post 6474 by A Lurker
I have put an extract here for you, but I advice you to go back to it as it is a very good post. I think you would understand our frustration.
We have agreements with BA which governs the number of Cabin Crew required on each flight. This number is determined by the delivery of the product and the workload required by each crew member to deliver that product - be it pre take off, after take off etc etc. This figure or number of Cabin Crew has always been determined by product trials ie BA want to try a new service or product - we all agree that it takes X number of crew to deliver that product in the style and the way that BA want and the delivery is trialled and a crewing complement is agreed.
Now if ever an aircraft had to leave LHR without the required number of crew on board - there is an AGREEMENT - on crewing levels which says - if you leave LHR a crew member down - you are entitled (all the crew ) to a payment of X in order to compensate delivering the agreed service whilst being a crew member down.
ie the product will still be delivered but you will have to work harder - and to do that we will pay you X. That is a written agreement.
Now if ever an aircraft had to leave LHR without the required number of crew on board - there is an AGREEMENT - on crewing levels which says - if you leave LHR a crew member down - you are entitled (all the crew ) to a payment of X in order to compensate delivering the agreed service whilst being a crew member down.
ie the product will still be delivered but you will have to work harder - and to do that we will pay you X. That is a written agreement.
At the end of the day. yes we were defeated by the courts, and prevented from striking. However that was on an obscure piece of EU legislation, not because we were incompetent in our ballot
You may want to dress it as you like it, but the thruth is that both Unions have made a fundamental error.
Neither of them did their homework properly. Now, I happen to believe that in both cases it was not done intentionally.
I have heard that incentives were offered to CC. Both shares, and extra staff tickets. Are you aware?
The offer you are talking about was only made once the threat of a ballot was too obvious or already on its way, I don't remember tha tright now. Also the above offer was never negotiated with BASSA....
If you were to ask me, I would say it was only made in an act of panic but there was no real thruth in it.
There is indeed a share scheme involved. To be honest, I have taken absolutely no notice whatsoever of it. I am pretty sure that all of us feel the same way
I used to work for an airline who went through worse conditions that our company is going through now.
Overnight we(CC) had to give up 20% pay cut, while other departments gave up similar cuts but every single employee was rewarded at the end...
ONLY vote to strike when you honestly believe there is no alternative! When you really mean it. Not because you think it will force 'Villie' back to the table
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Bearpit,
As BA Cabin Crew, I personally have never said the we are the No 1 choice for customer service.
I've always maintained that airlines like JAL and Singapore are excellent. I have to add that I have worked with some exceptional people in BA all across the airline.
In my observations when flying with our competitors, BA cabin crew are great when it comes to thinking outside the the box. However, when we are bad we're rubbish, but when we're good we're exceptional and unbeatable. Occasionally, I'm overwhelmed by the brilliance of our people in BA, even today
As BA Cabin Crew, I personally have never said the we are the No 1 choice for customer service.
I've always maintained that airlines like JAL and Singapore are excellent. I have to add that I have worked with some exceptional people in BA all across the airline.
In my observations when flying with our competitors, BA cabin crew are great when it comes to thinking outside the the box. However, when we are bad we're rubbish, but when we're good we're exceptional and unbeatable. Occasionally, I'm overwhelmed by the brilliance of our people in BA, even today
Tiramisu, I totally agree with you on this one. Well said.
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In 2008 Andrew Harrison received a basic salary of £590 000 plus a bonus of £265 000.
...equals £71 250/month.
...equals £71 250/month.
point taken, and there is absolutelly nothing wrong with people making that much.
However in my defence, EasyJet in on on the edge of collapse