British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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henkybaby
Henky - the management, in my opinion should have approached the Union and said something like this - " We are totally screwed at the moment, we need all of your help to ensure we survive what is going on in the world - this isn't like the normal bull**** we feed you when we try to screw you. This time we really are 
!!"
"What we are proposing is that we do THIS, THIS and THIS - we will try to mitigate any losses you may make - and when we return to the good times we will build in a (process/method/system) that allows all of you (the workers) to share in that. That way we are all working together for the common good."
Instead BA management came along and said - we are doing this - like it or lump it
!!""What we are proposing is that we do THIS, THIS and THIS - we will try to mitigate any losses you may make - and when we return to the good times we will build in a (process/method/system) that allows all of you (the workers) to share in that. That way we are all working together for the common good."
Instead BA management came along and said - we are doing this - like it or lump it
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FORCED DRAFT is involuntary. As far as I'm aware, being a union rep is entirely down to personal choice?
Am I wrong??
Am I wrong??
(As you can see - I am now the master of putting the quotey thing in the purpley boxy thing )
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Changing the subject, well done for using the quote box, it took me a little while to figure it out as well. it's nice to see other posters on this site so helpful.
How are you finding PPRuNe? I have learnt a lot from it myself
How are you finding PPRuNe? I have learnt a lot from it myself
Tiramisu, thanks it took me a few go but I got the jist of it eventually.
I like this forum though I find people can be rather one track minded at times.
I have not met a single crew member who has voted yes for the strike because of the new fleet..You can not strike for something that does not exist.
Bassa made it clear from day one, you can't blame BASSA for things people make up.
As far as money is concerned ,I am not refering at savings but at people going on about how much we make..Bassa strike was not based on how much we make or don't.
I am going to have to disagree with you also on getting money back once bussiness returns to profitability
I wasn't at BA back in 97 so please feel free to correct me f I am wrong.
Back in them days BA crew balloted for a strike because of the introductions of new contracts.
Even though new contracts were still introduced cabin crew recieved money in other forms. ie b2b payment.
In 2005 we balloted again and people on new contracts recieved pay increments.
on a final point I do wonder what Easyjet CEO makes x month
Last edited by romans44; 19th Dec 2009 at 22:30.
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A Lurker
BA attempted to do exactly as you describe. They even prepared a presentation to your reps detailing the parlous state of the company's finances.
Do you know how your reps responded?
That's right, they walked out!
Must be very difficult to 'negotiate' with ignoramuses like that!
Of course, after 9 months of such attempts, BA were left with absolutely no alternative but to 'impose'.
I ask you, genuinely, what other choice did they have???
Edited to add: Forced Draft may (but actually isn't!) 'mad money', but results in being compelled, sometimes at at 24hrs notice, to work anything up to 9 days. Even immediately after landing from a previous trip. Something CC can NEVER be required to do! (Due to MBTs)
Henky - the management, in my opinion should have approached the Union and said something like this - " We are totally screwed at the moment, we need all of your help to ensure we survive what is going on in the world - this isn't like the normal bull**** we feed you when we try to screw you. This time we really are !!"
Do you know how your reps responded?
That's right, they walked out!
Must be very difficult to 'negotiate' with ignoramuses like that!
Of course, after 9 months of such attempts, BA were left with absolutely no alternative but to 'impose'.
I ask you, genuinely, what other choice did they have???
Edited to add: Forced Draft may (but actually isn't!) 'mad money', but results in being compelled, sometimes at at 24hrs notice, to work anything up to 9 days. Even immediately after landing from a previous trip. Something CC can NEVER be required to do! (Due to MBTs)
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Alurker,
Again we are in agreement. I also feel that it would have been better to do so. I wonder if the history of inflexibility on both sides has driven them to choose this path.
I think the CC can do either of two things.
1. Fight the battle (maybe even win it) but at what sacrifice?
2. Propose a truce and negotiate a new deal.
It will be necessary to sacrifice some of your rights since (as you so eloquently showed) the product needs to improve and for the same or maybe now even less money.
I feel that the sacrifices you most likely need to make (barring an inspired idea that is acceptable for either party) should be compensated. It is my strong feeling that this compensation should be towards more involvement by CC in the way BA operates and product development. Unfortunately an earlier representative proved to be corrupt (if I understood FE correctly) but that just means you will have to select representation you are sure has no other agenda than your interests.
For all the reasons I mentioned in my earlier post I think you should not blindly trust BASSA management any more than BA management. Power corrupts.
It would be great if a leader within BA CC would be found.
Again we are in agreement. I also feel that it would have been better to do so. I wonder if the history of inflexibility on both sides has driven them to choose this path.
I think the CC can do either of two things.
1. Fight the battle (maybe even win it) but at what sacrifice?
2. Propose a truce and negotiate a new deal.
It will be necessary to sacrifice some of your rights since (as you so eloquently showed) the product needs to improve and for the same or maybe now even less money.
I feel that the sacrifices you most likely need to make (barring an inspired idea that is acceptable for either party) should be compensated. It is my strong feeling that this compensation should be towards more involvement by CC in the way BA operates and product development. Unfortunately an earlier representative proved to be corrupt (if I understood FE correctly) but that just means you will have to select representation you are sure has no other agenda than your interests.
For all the reasons I mentioned in my earlier post I think you should not blindly trust BASSA management any more than BA management. Power corrupts.
It would be great if a leader within BA CC would be found.
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Force draft does anyone know if these are at market rate or above compared to Easyjet, Ryanair etc i don't have a clue about the numbers can someone tell me the true figure even the Daily Mail must get leaked messages.
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4468
Well I cant confirm or deny that - as I wasn't there, I dare say neither where you.
However this leads full circle back to the fact that the vast majority of Cabin Crew/Union Reps/Plate Layers/Tea Bag Squeezers - call us what you like! Have no faith or trust in anything that this current British Airways management team say's or does - that is why we are where we are.
More importantly - there was damage done to BA forward bookings due to the uncertainty of strike action - all BA has managed to do is now roll that uncertainty to February and once again affect forward bookings.
What will your view be if BA lose the court case in February?
However this leads full circle back to the fact that the vast majority of Cabin Crew/Union Reps/Plate Layers/Tea Bag Squeezers - call us what you like! Have no faith or trust in anything that this current British Airways management team say's or does - that is why we are where we are.
More importantly - there was damage done to BA forward bookings due to the uncertainty of strike action - all BA has managed to do is now roll that uncertainty to February and once again affect forward bookings.
What will your view be if BA lose the court case in February?
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romans44,
I'm sorry but just about every single crew member I have spoken to is adamant that the strike is about New fleet. I have tried to tell them its about the 'IMPOSITION' but I am really not getting anywhere.
I have even had one person say to me ' But if we don't win this strike Willy Walsh is going to bring in all these eastern europeans to do our jobs for half the price and I know its true cos they (BA) did a huge recruitment drive in eastern europe to replace us'.
I have tried to reason with crew and say you can't go on strike about something that has not happened yet. But I am really not getting anywhere.
In my experience of talking to people, just about all crew think this is about the New Fleet'.
I'm sorry but just about every single crew member I have spoken to is adamant that the strike is about New fleet. I have tried to tell them its about the 'IMPOSITION' but I am really not getting anywhere.
I have even had one person say to me ' But if we don't win this strike Willy Walsh is going to bring in all these eastern europeans to do our jobs for half the price and I know its true cos they (BA) did a huge recruitment drive in eastern europe to replace us'.
I have tried to reason with crew and say you can't go on strike about something that has not happened yet. But I am really not getting anywhere.In my experience of talking to people, just about all crew think this is about the New Fleet'.
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henkybaby
As our Union Leaders quite rightly said last week - lets lift these forced impositions and lets us get around the table and agree a settlement - BA and Willie Walsh said - NO
Just to put this into perspective Henky - which I don't think the point has been made on here.
We have agreements with BA which governs the number of Cabin Crew required on each flight. This number is determined by the delivery of the product and the workload required by each crew member to deliver that product - be it pre take off, after take off etc etc. This figure or number of Cabin Crew has always been determined by product trials ie BA want to try a new service or product - we all agree that it takes X number of crew to deliver that product in the style and the way that BA want and the delivery is trialled and a crewing complement is agreed.
Now if ever an aircraft had to leave LHR without the required number of crew on board - there is an AGREEMENT - on crewing levels which says - if you leave LHR a crew member down - you are entitled (all the crew ) to a payment of X in order to compensate delivering the agreed service whilst being a crew member down.
ie the product will still be delivered but you will have to work harder - and to do that we will pay you X. That is a written agreement.
Now from last month BA reduced the crewing levels without agreement and without paying the AGREED sum to their crew members - if BA then ose the court case in February all Cabin Crew will receive backdated pay of circa £200 per crew member, per flight operated since 16th November.
This is why it is ludicrous that they say it is non-contractual - there is a written agreement in place which specifies the number of crew levels ex-LHR and the financial remedy if those crew levels are not met - this management are on a suicide mission with their workforce.
Just as our Flight Crew colleagues have a very lucrative Forced Draft payment when they are made to work - so do the Cabin Crew when they have to work one down - what would our Flight Deck colleagues say if BA called them up and said " we are force drafting you - oh and there is no payment any longer for it!"
Yeah - I thought so
Just to put this into perspective Henky - which I don't think the point has been made on here.
We have agreements with BA which governs the number of Cabin Crew required on each flight. This number is determined by the delivery of the product and the workload required by each crew member to deliver that product - be it pre take off, after take off etc etc. This figure or number of Cabin Crew has always been determined by product trials ie BA want to try a new service or product - we all agree that it takes X number of crew to deliver that product in the style and the way that BA want and the delivery is trialled and a crewing complement is agreed.
Now if ever an aircraft had to leave LHR without the required number of crew on board - there is an AGREEMENT - on crewing levels which says - if you leave LHR a crew member down - you are entitled (all the crew ) to a payment of X in order to compensate delivering the agreed service whilst being a crew member down.
ie the product will still be delivered but you will have to work harder - and to do that we will pay you X. That is a written agreement.
Now from last month BA reduced the crewing levels without agreement and without paying the AGREED sum to their crew members - if BA then ose the court case in February all Cabin Crew will receive backdated pay of circa £200 per crew member, per flight operated since 16th November.
This is why it is ludicrous that they say it is non-contractual - there is a written agreement in place which specifies the number of crew levels ex-LHR and the financial remedy if those crew levels are not met - this management are on a suicide mission with their workforce.
Just as our Flight Crew colleagues have a very lucrative Forced Draft payment when they are made to work - so do the Cabin Crew when they have to work one down - what would our Flight Deck colleagues say if BA called them up and said " we are force drafting you - oh and there is no payment any longer for it!"
Yeah - I thought so
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WWW and AL
As I'm sure you know, I am FD. As we know, some (hopefully not many) of my colleagues are nasty, or ignorant pieces of work. I genuinely hope I am not!
As far as negotiations were concerned, I have it on impeccable authority that BASSA walked out of a presentation by the company, of the state of it's finances. Your negotiators simply were not prepared to listen! I have no doubt your reps have their version of events. Do you know it? Have you asked?
Virtually all other staff groups have agreed permanent changes. For example pilots (as I know you are fixated by) have agreed a PERMANENT 4% pay cut. At this precise moment in time, CC aren't losing a penny!
I ask you: Would you prefer a permanent 4% pay cut for all, rather than simply working a little harder on board? I would really welcome an answer? It could stop New Fleet?
I know New Fleet is a problem for you. How would you prefer BA to realign CC T&Cs a little closer to market rate? Yes I know you want to be left alone. Perhaps the majority of your T&Cs can be, but there simply has to be some movement! If only for new joiners.
Start to think about how new joiners could be employed on rates of pay that are more realistic, without threatening your incomes. It must be possible.
Of course, in order to do that, your representatives have to be at the table. You know as well as I do, that it was BASSA that decided 'no negotiation' was their policy. Was that your choice? I understand there was a show of hands.
Let's us talk without pre-condition or prejudice, and see were we can get?
Maybe we can start something here?
As far as Forced Draft is concerned, we are paid 1.25% (I think?) what the company term our hourly rate. For me, a copilot, that would be approximately £1900 (£1140 net) for 3 days out of my life, regardless of what personal crises or personal lifelong milestones/ life events it steals! It is compulsory. No choice whatsoever! (Not a fortune under the circumstances I would suggest!)
Edited to add: Whilst composing this, (a long time I know!) I am now aware that other points have been raised. Sorry I haven't addressed them. I will leave it just a little longer, but I am ready to respond.
As I'm sure you know, I am FD. As we know, some (hopefully not many) of my colleagues are nasty, or ignorant pieces of work. I genuinely hope I am not!
As far as negotiations were concerned, I have it on impeccable authority that BASSA walked out of a presentation by the company, of the state of it's finances. Your negotiators simply were not prepared to listen! I have no doubt your reps have their version of events. Do you know it? Have you asked?
Virtually all other staff groups have agreed permanent changes. For example pilots (as I know you are fixated by) have agreed a PERMANENT 4% pay cut. At this precise moment in time, CC aren't losing a penny!
I ask you: Would you prefer a permanent 4% pay cut for all, rather than simply working a little harder on board? I would really welcome an answer? It could stop New Fleet?
I know New Fleet is a problem for you. How would you prefer BA to realign CC T&Cs a little closer to market rate? Yes I know you want to be left alone. Perhaps the majority of your T&Cs can be, but there simply has to be some movement! If only for new joiners.
Start to think about how new joiners could be employed on rates of pay that are more realistic, without threatening your incomes. It must be possible.
Of course, in order to do that, your representatives have to be at the table. You know as well as I do, that it was BASSA that decided 'no negotiation' was their policy. Was that your choice? I understand there was a show of hands.
Let's us talk without pre-condition or prejudice, and see were we can get?
Maybe we can start something here?
As far as Forced Draft is concerned, we are paid 1.25% (I think?) what the company term our hourly rate. For me, a copilot, that would be approximately £1900 (£1140 net) for 3 days out of my life, regardless of what personal crises or personal lifelong milestones/ life events it steals! It is compulsory. No choice whatsoever! (Not a fortune under the circumstances I would suggest!)
Edited to add: Whilst composing this, (a long time I know!) I am now aware that other points have been raised. Sorry I haven't addressed them. I will leave it just a little longer, but I am ready to respond.
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Maybe you think anyone who doesn't support the BA CC doesn't understand?
You're kidding yourself if you really believe that only folk who work for BA understand the issues
You're kidding yourself if you really believe that only folk who work for BA understand the issues
No, Bronx I don't think that... but as an outsider I would not dream to pass judgement on you or your job.
Don't tell me u know how much I make because you have read it on a paper or because your best friend tells how much she makes. The truth is you don't know how much I make, just like I don't know how much u make.
No point in me telling you what is going on, I am sure plenty of people here would disagree with me..
If you really want to know what is going on, come and work for us then u can make your own mind up.
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AtlasDrawer
I'm sorry but just about every single crew member I have spoken to is adamant that the strike is about New fleet. I have tried to tell them its about the 'IMPOSITION' but I am really not getting anywhere.
I have even had one person say to me ' But if we don't win this strike Willy Walsh is going to bring in all these eastern europeans to do our jobs for half the price and I know its true cos they (BA) did a huge recruitment drive in eastern europe to replace us'. I have tried to reason with crew and say you can't go on strike about something that has not happened yet. But I am really not getting anywhere.
In my experience of talking to people, just about all crew think this is about the New Fleet'.
I'm sorry but just about every single crew member I have spoken to is adamant that the strike is about New fleet. I have tried to tell them its about the 'IMPOSITION' but I am really not getting anywhere.
I have even had one person say to me ' But if we don't win this strike Willy Walsh is going to bring in all these eastern europeans to do our jobs for half the price and I know its true cos they (BA) did a huge recruitment drive in eastern europe to replace us'.
I have tried to reason with crew and say you can't go on strike about something that has not happened yet. But I am really not getting anywhere.In my experience of talking to people, just about all crew think this is about the New Fleet'.
Forgive me but I know you can't strike for something that doesn't exist, that's what I try and explain to crew all the time.
And there you have it, from AtlasDrawer as well. That's exactly what I hear all the time. Why would I make it up?
What the crew do say is 'we're striking about New Fleet but we have to say "imposition" because that's what BASSA told us to say'. This was only on my flight on Friday!
As for salary increments that's part of our pay. It's contractual in most jobs.
How can you compare the salary of WW to that of the Easy Jet CEO?
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above are my personal views and not those of my employer's.
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Alurker,
Now you lost me. Why are we talking positions again? Is it important who is right? What will being right get you?
I was putting forward that if the cabin crew (not necessarily the union for reasons I mentioned before: self interest and power corrupts) are willing to accept that they also need to sacrifice some of the T&C's they have earned over the years given the state of the economy, BA management may be willing to discuss what they can give you in return.
In all honesty I believe that the union (and maybe BA management) have been discussing positions, not interests.
I am also still surprised that you (and most pro strike posters) consistently refer to BA as the other party in this conflict. You are BA too. You cannot distinguish yourself from BA. It is not you against BA.
The way things are worded are often a clear sign of the real problem.
Now you lost me. Why are we talking positions again? Is it important who is right? What will being right get you?
I was putting forward that if the cabin crew (not necessarily the union for reasons I mentioned before: self interest and power corrupts) are willing to accept that they also need to sacrifice some of the T&C's they have earned over the years given the state of the economy, BA management may be willing to discuss what they can give you in return.
In all honesty I believe that the union (and maybe BA management) have been discussing positions, not interests.
I am also still surprised that you (and most pro strike posters) consistently refer to BA as the other party in this conflict. You are BA too. You cannot distinguish yourself from BA. It is not you against BA.
The way things are worded are often a clear sign of the real problem.
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Thanks 4468 im off to bed now thanks for your numbers at the end of the day the money has to come from somewhere but BA value some of us more than others thanks for your honest views on this subject of pay. bye for now pay later more for less as Villie says.
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First thing. Force draft isn't comparable to working one down. We've already reduced our complements by a measure as part of our agreements (it's not the same as taking a crew member off as our complement is defined by the length of the flight). Force draft is about being forced to come in after minimum rest to do a trip on days you thought you had off. Correct me if I'm wrong but that just doesn't exist in the CC agreements.
Second thing. The payment isn't defined in the way that main crew get an amount, psrs get an amount, and csds a different one. The payment for force draft is paid at the NCP rate (which is our overtime rate) x 1.25 (which, in part, compensates for the fact you've just lost your days off - a situation not reflected in the CC agreements) x the credited hours for the trip. Each pilots' NCP rate is a function of their basic salary very roughly divided by 1100.
So there isn't a single FD payment, as such. The variables are rank, LH, MH, SH, trip length and seniority.
Second thing. The payment isn't defined in the way that main crew get an amount, psrs get an amount, and csds a different one. The payment for force draft is paid at the NCP rate (which is our overtime rate) x 1.25 (which, in part, compensates for the fact you've just lost your days off - a situation not reflected in the CC agreements) x the credited hours for the trip. Each pilots' NCP rate is a function of their basic salary very roughly divided by 1100.
So there isn't a single FD payment, as such. The variables are rank, LH, MH, SH, trip length and seniority.