British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Just been for another look at CF. I wont bother transcribing the content here as I will be banned. Those of you who are not part of the cult will understand when I say it appears to me to be a lost cause in terms of attitude. There are some seriously brainwashed childish, vindictive people. Classic cult signs of denial of the truth and blind obedience to the leaders. No free thinkers.It is nothing more than a cult. The employment version of Jonestown Guyana (I think. Google it).
Their hatred for BA, the management and total disdain for the customers and public opinion is breathtaking. Their inability to see that most of what they enjoy is not a right but a consequence of their employment which they are throwing away for some self serving idiots. So lets speed them on their way to nirvanna.
No disrespect Henky but its too malevolent now. A surgical tactic is the only thing that will focus the mind.
Take advantage of the booking damage they have caused and sack the first thousand on the list. Replace them with known non strikers and temps.Go to a contract agency and get the XL and GSM lot.(many of which were BCAl And BA airtours before) Keep doing this until you have control again. Unfortunately some healthy tissue will be damaged in the operation but it will focus their minds. Cut out the cancer to save the host.Simple. They have the facts and ignore them.IE They havent resonded to treatment. (dontcha love analogies).
What is not as easily fixed is the society that has produced an educated bunch on paper who turn everything they are presented with into some camp offensive drama queen tabloid type debate.THIS IS NOT X FACTOR.IT IS THE LIVELIHOOD OF THOUSANDS YOU ARE RISKING.Grow up and wake up. I wonder what would happen if the press "hacked " into CF..MMMMM.
You cannot negotiate with stroppy foulmouthed teenagers.
Their hatred for BA, the management and total disdain for the customers and public opinion is breathtaking. Their inability to see that most of what they enjoy is not a right but a consequence of their employment which they are throwing away for some self serving idiots. So lets speed them on their way to nirvanna.
No disrespect Henky but its too malevolent now. A surgical tactic is the only thing that will focus the mind.
Take advantage of the booking damage they have caused and sack the first thousand on the list. Replace them with known non strikers and temps.Go to a contract agency and get the XL and GSM lot.(many of which were BCAl And BA airtours before) Keep doing this until you have control again. Unfortunately some healthy tissue will be damaged in the operation but it will focus their minds. Cut out the cancer to save the host.Simple. They have the facts and ignore them.IE They havent resonded to treatment. (dontcha love analogies).
What is not as easily fixed is the society that has produced an educated bunch on paper who turn everything they are presented with into some camp offensive drama queen tabloid type debate.THIS IS NOT X FACTOR.IT IS THE LIVELIHOOD OF THOUSANDS YOU ARE RISKING.Grow up and wake up. I wonder what would happen if the press "hacked " into CF..MMMMM.
You cannot negotiate with stroppy foulmouthed teenagers.
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That is a logical impossibility. What you (and all people who say this in whatever circumstance) mean is "we had no choice we liked". A completely different claim and one that acknowledges the responsibility of all parties.
I am not debating whatever you claim to have no choice in, just saying that it most always is a faulty claim.
I am not debating whatever you claim to have no choice in, just saying that it most always is a faulty claim.
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However in my defence, EasyJet in on on the edge of collapse
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What you (and all people who say this in whatever circumstance) mean is "we had no choice we liked
Yes, I guess we could have just accepted what it was coming our way.
If we did we would probabbly not be in this mess.
But accepting an imposition with no fight would simply open a biger door, surely you must agree with that.
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Hi henkybaby, I see no fault in that.
Yes, I guess we could have just accepted what it was coming our way.
If we did we would probabbly not be in this mess.
But accepting an imposition with no fight would simply open a biger door, surely you must agree with that.
Yes, I guess we could have just accepted what it was coming our way.
If we did we would probabbly not be in this mess.
But accepting an imposition with no fight would simply open a biger door, surely you must agree with that.
Sadly BASSA wanted to totally dictate the direction, content and purpose of those negotiations as usual and BA said no. BASSA wanted to limit, correctly, the threat of CR. BA agreed and was willing to discuss productivity issues to minimise the threat but BASSA wouldn't agree to discuss anything except to clarify how many CR threats there were.
Off went the negotiations down a rabbit hole leading to the mess we have now.
Although BA management are not without blame in this whole case I feel the fact that ALL other Unions have agreed negotiated settlements leaves BASSA a little out in the cold.
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Arguably BASSA imposed this on themselves by not negotiating meaningfully on how to find permanent savings of 140m. Instead they chose on a show of hands "not to negotiate" - how is this meant to find a non imposed solution ?? And you had months of notice of it !
If it is your belief that easyJet are on the brink of collapse (they are in a much healthier position than BA) - then it does illustrate the business competence of BASSA and some of their members. easyJet are growing, are profitable, have shiny new aeroplanes, high load factors and great frequency ex LGW and to quote Andy Harrison "do not see BA as competition, they have ceded LGW and the UK regions to us, we do not see them as a competitive threat". They are now focused on mainland Europe.
BA are having to match them (or near as) on price on leisure SH routes ex LGW, and still with higher costs (even with SF LGW) and a lot more complexity (read restrictive agreements, more layers at all levels, not just CC). As someone said on here when those 737-400's are for the scrap heap I cannot see how BA will be able to create a robust business case to replace them and convince investors.
If it is your belief that easyJet are on the brink of collapse (they are in a much healthier position than BA) - then it does illustrate the business competence of BASSA and some of their members. easyJet are growing, are profitable, have shiny new aeroplanes, high load factors and great frequency ex LGW and to quote Andy Harrison "do not see BA as competition, they have ceded LGW and the UK regions to us, we do not see them as a competitive threat". They are now focused on mainland Europe.
BA are having to match them (or near as) on price on leisure SH routes ex LGW, and still with higher costs (even with SF LGW) and a lot more complexity (read restrictive agreements, more layers at all levels, not just CC). As someone said on here when those 737-400's are for the scrap heap I cannot see how BA will be able to create a robust business case to replace them and convince investors.
Last edited by TOM100; 20th Dec 2009 at 13:30.
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Interesting article here on the legal error made by Unite. It seems they've made rather a habit of it.
Right to strike is being eroded, says BA union | Politics | The Guardian
Most interesting is:
I say nail the 
's!
Right to strike is being eroded, says BA union | Politics | The Guardian
Most interesting is:
It is understood that other companies caught up in the Metrobus strike, which hit bus operators across the capital, have been able to sue Unite for compensation for organising strike action which was retrospectively unlawful. The BA and Metrobus rulings could inspire more compensation claims, because companies can sue over strikes that occurred six years ago if they discover voting irregularities.
's!
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What's this rumour over at CrewForum that Judge Cox is travelling LHR-GAV on December 23rd?
This rumour is right up there with "Rod Eddington's dog".
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All the blame for this mess is down to BASSA.It's a monster that is out of control.BA and Unite are already aware of this i would say some crew are as well.
Please lets not forget that it's nearly xmas we all have our diffrent opinions but i would like to wish all on here a Happy Xmas and very best wishes for 2010 .Please lets hope that this mess gets sorted out for all of our sakes.
Please lets not forget that it's nearly xmas we all have our diffrent opinions but i would like to wish all on here a Happy Xmas and very best wishes for 2010 .Please lets hope that this mess gets sorted out for all of our sakes.
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is simply that BA DID give them time to negotiate, extra time to negotiate and ACAS
Hi Wobblezplank, it is unforunate that people don't realise that, yes, while you are right in saying that the company gave the union time, this was only done so that we would accept their conditions.
How can you negotiate with someone who is not listening? I have already said this, so my apologies for repeating myself..
There was no need for ACAS. The union was, and still is, more than willing to negotiate.
Ask your self why has the company walked away at the latest attempt to negotiate?
They are simply not interested and now that they have the public and the media on their side, why bother?
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I am sure that with proper representation more choices could have been found. The problem is that black and white are always and immediately obvious to anybody. It is finding the grey, seeing alternatives that requires leadership. On both sides.The only way to do that is to communicate. Listen and learn.
I am going to out on a limb here, but my interpretation is that BA management had put a proposal forward that already safeguarded the wages of the current staff and required them to compromise by working harder and accept that new staff will need to be hired on 'lesser contracts'.
Since the conflict is about BA management implementing their proposal without talking to the cabin crew first (and not about the actual proposal itself!) there is still a chance that the cabin crew can agree the proposed measures are in fact the lesser of all evils. It requires dialog to find out the interests of all parties.
Striking will never make people understand anything, as you must have noticed by now.
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The problem in this dispute is that over the last 20plus years, the BASSA 'leadership' has just repeated the 'no' mantra to anything BA suggested. In doing so, both sides have dug themselves deeply into their respective trenches.
Throughout this time, BASSA messages to the CC community have been to tell them to listen to nobody but them, that everyone else is lying, be they management or espeially their bette noire, the pilots. As has been said before, it has become a witches coven or sect where the mantra being chanted over and over has become their reality.
The trench dug by the BASSA sect is now so deep that they can't see out of it into the real world. The only solution is for the trench to be filled in, burying the leadership in it to decaptitate the ogre. There can be no lasting peace between BA and the BASSA without total eradication of the current culture. Willie has, rightly, decided that this is the defining moment in finally divesting BA of the 1970's style union control of the business.
On a slightly more humouress note ......
From Jeremy Clarkson in the Times:
Throughout this time, BASSA messages to the CC community have been to tell them to listen to nobody but them, that everyone else is lying, be they management or espeially their bette noire, the pilots. As has been said before, it has become a witches coven or sect where the mantra being chanted over and over has become their reality.
The trench dug by the BASSA sect is now so deep that they can't see out of it into the real world. The only solution is for the trench to be filled in, burying the leadership in it to decaptitate the ogre. There can be no lasting peace between BA and the BASSA without total eradication of the current culture. Willie has, rightly, decided that this is the defining moment in finally divesting BA of the 1970's style union control of the business.
On a slightly more humouress note ......
From Jeremy Clarkson in the Times:
That’s why I was so amazed about the BA nonsense. I can’t imagine for a minute that those pretty boys who point at doors for a living wanted to spend their Christmas break in donkey jackets, chanting: “Willie, Willie, Willie. Out, out, out.” They might have thought it’d be nostalgic and fun to throw a stone at a policeman and call a pilot a scab. But if they’d all turned up for picket-line duty in their Audi TTs — the car of choice for cabin crew — I doubt they would have got many honks of support from passing motorists. They’d have just been rather cold and bored.
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It's inevitable on a thread of this length that we end up going round in circles. Newcomers cannot be bothered to read what has gone before. Some seem to think that if they keep repeating the BASSA mantra, somehow that will overcome the logical arguments that have been patiently outlined here.
The deadline for negotiation was 6 months ago and BASSA refused to talk. To state otherwise is to deny that the Sandown 'show of hands' led to a no-negotiation policy by BASSA! Or did I dream that one?
Perhaps it's time for a new thread to coincide with the latest suicidal strike vote?
The deadline for negotiation was 6 months ago and BASSA refused to talk. To state otherwise is to deny that the Sandown 'show of hands' led to a no-negotiation policy by BASSA! Or did I dream that one?
Perhaps it's time for a new thread to coincide with the latest suicidal strike vote?
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I would like to ask why it is that Eurofleet cabin crew break their areements when it suits them .
(IE) Delays in and out of LHR when going on to a link i see it quite alot .
Asking ops to keep them on some nightstops that are worth good allowances even if they are say five to fifteen minutes out .Oh yes BASSA have given us special dispensation to carry on what a load of .
However when it comes to a quick link on the end of the trip i tend to hear oh i'm not doing that link .NO WAY i am two minutes out .
Special dispensation from BASSA it does make me laugh.Surely crew should be working to their agreements or not .It's when it suits which is just not credible.No none of it is about money of course not.
(IE) Delays in and out of LHR when going on to a link i see it quite alot .
Asking ops to keep them on some nightstops that are worth good allowances even if they are say five to fifteen minutes out .Oh yes BASSA have given us special dispensation to carry on what a load of
.However when it comes to a quick link on the end of the trip i tend to hear oh i'm not doing that link .NO WAY i am two minutes out .
Special dispensation from BASSA it does make me laugh.Surely crew should be working to their agreements or not .It's when it suits which is just not credible.No none of it is about money of course not
.
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Desertia, I will not reply to you as I don't support any form of abuse or bad language in any way or shape.
Stop procrastinating in true BASSA style.
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Clarkson
"those pretty boys who point at doors for a living"
Thanks Top Bunk. Jeremy does have a way with words, even if his car appraisals do suffer from major 'thread drift' at times.
The quote is diamond, and anyone who disagrees has absolutely no sense of humour!
Thanks Top Bunk. Jeremy does have a way with words, even if his car appraisals do suffer from major 'thread drift' at times.
The quote is diamond, and anyone who disagrees has absolutely no sense of humour!
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Now you are just playing the victim... 
I am sure that with proper representation more choices could have been found. The problem is that black and white are always and immediately obvious to anybody. Now The only way to do that is to communicate. Listen and learn.
I am sure that with proper representation more choices could have been found. The problem is that black and white are always and immediately obvious to anybody. Now The only way to do that is to communicate. Listen and learn.
no I am not playing the victim
, just stating some facts.
It is finding the grey, seeing alternatives that requires leadership. On both sides.
The only way to do that is to communicate. Listen and learn
The only way to do that is to communicate. Listen and learn
I totally agree with you and I like what you say about' BOTH SIDES'
Unfortunatelly, in my opinion , this is all one sided.
Now, you say it is BASSA I say is the company...
I Guess, we would have to agree to disagree on this one.
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from the Guardian United or divided? The union tensions that lay behind the BA strike plans | Business | The Observer
United or divided? The union tensions that lay behind the BA strike plans
Right until the last minute there were disagreements within Unite over the plans for the 12-day protest
There were emotional scenes at the announcement of the British Airways cabin crew strike ballot last week, but the most important spectacle will not be posted on YouTube. Amid an expectant atmosphere at Sandown racecourse, a heated exchange took place whose outcome changed the direction of a momentous few days for industrial relations in the UK. Indeed, had it gone another way the week might not have ended with a high court hearing that saw BA secure an injunction against a 12-day strike.
Thousands of BA employees gathered in the shadow of the Heathrow flightpath to await a resounding vote in favour of strike action that would ground many of the planes flying overhead. However, a press conference was delayed as the assembled hacks and TV crews were told that a few details were still being sorted out. In fact, a row had broken out behind the scenes after a last-minute legal hitch ignited an argument over whether a breathtaking strike period of 12 days – the longest in BA's history – should be announced as well.
Gathered in a function room next to the cavernous main hall, some of the most influential trade unionists in British aviation were in disagreement over the next step. Len McCluskey, the assistant general secretary of Unite, and Steve Turner and Brian Boyd, Unite's aviation officers, were aware of daunting legal warnings from BA that pointed to potential irregularities in the voting process. Facing them were representatives from Bassa, the Unite cabin crew branch that represents 12,700 BA staff and was determined to send a signal to Willie Walsh, BA's combative chief executive.
Unite agreed with the message: unilaterally cutting staff numbers on flights was an intolerable act and a serious breach of industrial relations. The problem was the method chosen to deliver it – Unite was worried a 12-day strike would force Walsh into legal action with crushing consequences. There was also concern in its upper echelons about public reaction to a strike that would knock out BA from 22 December to 2 January.
A source with knowledge of the meeting said: "Some time over that weekend a letter was received threatening legal action. Unite was worried about a successful injunction." The source added that a Unite official, mindful of multimillion-pound compensation claims if a huge strike went ahead but was later ruled unlawful, then suggested a compromise of announcing the ballot result while putting off declaring a 12-day walkout for at least one day. The temperature soared. It was enough to reignite suspicions that Unite was not fully behind its cabin crew branch and accusations flew amid the kind of language that is banned on inflight announcements.
It was then that McCluskey, a rising power in Unite, is believed to have ducked out of the room to hold a phone conversation. Bassa sources believe it was with Tony Woodley, the joint general secretary of Unite. Indeed, McCluskey may just have escaped for a moment's peace on a still winter afternoon. Whatever happened, he returned 10 minutes later with a statement that convulsed Britain's flag carrier and nearly a million passengers: the 12-day strike was on.
When the Liverpudlian former dock worker told the press an hour later that Unite had taken the decision to disrupt Christmas with "a heavy heart", he probably meant it. Bassa is in no danger of splitting from Unite – for practical reasons alone it needs Unite's financial and legal support – but the relationship is tempestuous. Tension has lingered since Woodley brokered a peace deal with Walsh to call off a looming cabin crew strike in 2007 as general secretary of the T&G, Unite's predecessor. Some Bassa members were so determined to strike that there was anger over Woodley's determination to hammer out a truce – even if it came with a pay rise.
A source who observed Walsh's behaviour last week says the BA chief executive appeared to act "with sorrow more than anger" in ordering his lawyers to the high court. The source says that Walsh appeared to be shocked by cabin crew's determination to inflict damage on the airline that could have run to more than £200m. The prospect of a peace deal still seems remote, however. Woodley and Simpson offered a settlement that would have seen the strikes suspended if BA reversed staff cuts and made payments to cabin crew totalling about £400,000 per week. However, that was not getting anywhere in private talks with Walsh before Mrs Justice Cox intervened on Thursday.
There is admiration within Unite for Bassa's communications set-up – a well-run leafleting and internet campaign that drove an 80% turnout and an overwhelming majority in the vote. But there is also concern about Bassa's distance from the rest of the union and from other BA staff. One former BA executive has told the Observer that antipathy between cabin crew and other BA employees – pilots were seen congratulating the airline's lawyers at the hearing that threw out the strike – might have boiled over had the strike gone ahead. Bassa's mindset is strengthened by a degree of financial independence, taking around £5 out of every member's £16 monthly dues, with the rest going to Unite.
At the end of a tumultuous week, a Bassa source called for more support as Unite prepared to launch a new strike ballot in January. Bassa had wanted to take out a full-page advert in the Daily Mail to argue the union's case because the paper is the most popular of the giveaway papers among BA passengers. Unite said no and after a week of Daily Mail reporters doorstepping Bassa representatives, a Bassa source admits ruefully: "We probably won't do it with the Daily Mail even if we do run an advert next time." Woodley's counterpart, joint general secretary Derek Simpson, gave an insight into the thinking of senior figures in Unite when he admitted in a TV interview that a 12-day walkout was "probably over the top".
The Bassa source said: "We recognise that it is a marriage that has to work and we just want Unite to come to marriage guidance counselling with us. It's just that we are all used to working 24/7, 365 days per year and we would like a service like that in return." The opinions on Bassa's internet forum are less conciliatory, labelling the unlawful ballot "a disgrace" due to Unite's role in it. Nonetheless, if some cabin crew uttered a desire to split from Unite in 2007, the rift is not wide enough for those thoughts to gain traction this time around.
About 24 hours after voices were raised in that Sandown meeting room, Woodley and Simpson met Bassa representatives to say that they were behind the strike and would fight hard for concessions in talks with Walsh. Thursday's high court hearing gave them no time to keep that promise, but it is likely that January will give them another chance.
United or divided? The union tensions that lay behind the BA strike plans
Right until the last minute there were disagreements within Unite over the plans for the 12-day protest
There were emotional scenes at the announcement of the British Airways cabin crew strike ballot last week, but the most important spectacle will not be posted on YouTube. Amid an expectant atmosphere at Sandown racecourse, a heated exchange took place whose outcome changed the direction of a momentous few days for industrial relations in the UK. Indeed, had it gone another way the week might not have ended with a high court hearing that saw BA secure an injunction against a 12-day strike.
Thousands of BA employees gathered in the shadow of the Heathrow flightpath to await a resounding vote in favour of strike action that would ground many of the planes flying overhead. However, a press conference was delayed as the assembled hacks and TV crews were told that a few details were still being sorted out. In fact, a row had broken out behind the scenes after a last-minute legal hitch ignited an argument over whether a breathtaking strike period of 12 days – the longest in BA's history – should be announced as well.
Gathered in a function room next to the cavernous main hall, some of the most influential trade unionists in British aviation were in disagreement over the next step. Len McCluskey, the assistant general secretary of Unite, and Steve Turner and Brian Boyd, Unite's aviation officers, were aware of daunting legal warnings from BA that pointed to potential irregularities in the voting process. Facing them were representatives from Bassa, the Unite cabin crew branch that represents 12,700 BA staff and was determined to send a signal to Willie Walsh, BA's combative chief executive.
Unite agreed with the message: unilaterally cutting staff numbers on flights was an intolerable act and a serious breach of industrial relations. The problem was the method chosen to deliver it – Unite was worried a 12-day strike would force Walsh into legal action with crushing consequences. There was also concern in its upper echelons about public reaction to a strike that would knock out BA from 22 December to 2 January.
A source with knowledge of the meeting said: "Some time over that weekend a letter was received threatening legal action. Unite was worried about a successful injunction." The source added that a Unite official, mindful of multimillion-pound compensation claims if a huge strike went ahead but was later ruled unlawful, then suggested a compromise of announcing the ballot result while putting off declaring a 12-day walkout for at least one day. The temperature soared. It was enough to reignite suspicions that Unite was not fully behind its cabin crew branch and accusations flew amid the kind of language that is banned on inflight announcements.
It was then that McCluskey, a rising power in Unite, is believed to have ducked out of the room to hold a phone conversation. Bassa sources believe it was with Tony Woodley, the joint general secretary of Unite. Indeed, McCluskey may just have escaped for a moment's peace on a still winter afternoon. Whatever happened, he returned 10 minutes later with a statement that convulsed Britain's flag carrier and nearly a million passengers: the 12-day strike was on.
When the Liverpudlian former dock worker told the press an hour later that Unite had taken the decision to disrupt Christmas with "a heavy heart", he probably meant it. Bassa is in no danger of splitting from Unite – for practical reasons alone it needs Unite's financial and legal support – but the relationship is tempestuous. Tension has lingered since Woodley brokered a peace deal with Walsh to call off a looming cabin crew strike in 2007 as general secretary of the T&G, Unite's predecessor. Some Bassa members were so determined to strike that there was anger over Woodley's determination to hammer out a truce – even if it came with a pay rise.
A source who observed Walsh's behaviour last week says the BA chief executive appeared to act "with sorrow more than anger" in ordering his lawyers to the high court. The source says that Walsh appeared to be shocked by cabin crew's determination to inflict damage on the airline that could have run to more than £200m. The prospect of a peace deal still seems remote, however. Woodley and Simpson offered a settlement that would have seen the strikes suspended if BA reversed staff cuts and made payments to cabin crew totalling about £400,000 per week. However, that was not getting anywhere in private talks with Walsh before Mrs Justice Cox intervened on Thursday.
There is admiration within Unite for Bassa's communications set-up – a well-run leafleting and internet campaign that drove an 80% turnout and an overwhelming majority in the vote. But there is also concern about Bassa's distance from the rest of the union and from other BA staff. One former BA executive has told the Observer that antipathy between cabin crew and other BA employees – pilots were seen congratulating the airline's lawyers at the hearing that threw out the strike – might have boiled over had the strike gone ahead. Bassa's mindset is strengthened by a degree of financial independence, taking around £5 out of every member's £16 monthly dues, with the rest going to Unite.
At the end of a tumultuous week, a Bassa source called for more support as Unite prepared to launch a new strike ballot in January. Bassa had wanted to take out a full-page advert in the Daily Mail to argue the union's case because the paper is the most popular of the giveaway papers among BA passengers. Unite said no and after a week of Daily Mail reporters doorstepping Bassa representatives, a Bassa source admits ruefully: "We probably won't do it with the Daily Mail even if we do run an advert next time." Woodley's counterpart, joint general secretary Derek Simpson, gave an insight into the thinking of senior figures in Unite when he admitted in a TV interview that a 12-day walkout was "probably over the top".
The Bassa source said: "We recognise that it is a marriage that has to work and we just want Unite to come to marriage guidance counselling with us. It's just that we are all used to working 24/7, 365 days per year and we would like a service like that in return." The opinions on Bassa's internet forum are less conciliatory, labelling the unlawful ballot "a disgrace" due to Unite's role in it. Nonetheless, if some cabin crew uttered a desire to split from Unite in 2007, the rift is not wide enough for those thoughts to gain traction this time around.
About 24 hours after voices were raised in that Sandown meeting room, Woodley and Simpson met Bassa representatives to say that they were behind the strike and would fight hard for concessions in talks with Walsh. Thursday's high court hearing gave them no time to keep that promise, but it is likely that January will give them another chance.