British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Woodley and Simpson offered a settlement that would have seen the strikes suspended if BA reversed staff cuts and made payments to cabin crew totalling about £400,000 per week.
"probably over the top"
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You have to hand it to BASSA they have made a first class job at making complete idiots out of their members .I wonder when all the bullying will be exposed in The Daily Mail .Any news of The Bassa six.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the Telegraph:
Senseless phantom flight epitomises BA woes
The story that British Airways managers tell of the empty 747 British Airways flight from Prestwick to London reveals a lot about the disastrous set of problems BA is facing this weekend. The strikes may have been postponed, hopefully for good if the unions have any sense, but the issues which they reveal run deep and are not yet solved.
By Kamal Ahmed
Published: 7:15PM GMT 19 Dec 2009
In February, when the snow lay thick on the ground and Heathrow was closed, many flights were diverted to airports which were still open for traffic. One such flight, a BA service from Cape Town to London, was sent to Prestwick, kept snow free because of its proximity to the mild gulf stream waters of the Atlantic. Cabin crew, pilots and passengers were put up in local hotels and plans were made to fly them out again as soon as possible.
That was until the dreaded "workplace agreements" came into place. These documents, by which all industrial relations in BA are governed, are some of the most Byzantine set of rules and allowances in existence in the private sector. They have been built up over decades, some of the provisions stretching back to the dim and distant world of BOAC.
The agreements make it clear that managers at BA can only make decisions on matters that cause "severe disruption", such as the weather, "after agreement with the Trades Unions" including "contacting the chairperson of each of the Trade Unions" and "fully debriefing the Trades Unions", with decisions recorded in the "Worldwide Steering Minutes".
It sounds like someone has reached back to the 1970s and pulled the document straight off a dusty shelf marked "industrial relations from a different era".
On that snowy weekend, senior BA sources have told me, the quickest and most passenger-friendly thing to do was fly the plane back from Prestwick the next day to London. OK, everyone would be a day late, but at least they would be at the right destination.
But this, the managers say, clashed with the workplace agreements on two nights off after a long-haul flight. The pilots were happy to fly. The cabin crew were happy to fly. But the unions said no.
So, with no cabin crew, the plane flew back to London empty, taxis had to be called for the stranded passengers to get them to Glasgow and onto other domestic flights to London. Everyone wasted more time and there was more disruption. Passengers were sacrificed on the sacred altar of "workplace agreements".
The key question is, who runs BA? The managers, answerable to the board and shareholders, or the unions, answerable to their members? If it is the latter – and this fight over, at its simplest, how many cabin crew there are on a flight, suggest that it is – then BA will never get itself out of the horrible hole it finds itself in.
Gordon Brown and Lord Adonis, the Transport Secretary, know the mess being stored up here. I am told the Prime Minister rang Tony Woodley directly, urging a conciliatory approach, last week. Peter Mandelson, the Business Secretary, must be tearing his hair out over the damage this dispute has already done to BA and its bottom line. If the strikes go ahead in the New Year, the cost could be up to £20m a day. This, for a company that is set to lose more than £400m this financial year.
There are some glimmers of hope. Many of the BA cabin crew at Gatwick – incidentally paid far less than many of their colleagues at Heathrow – are already on the new crewing arrangements, which are working perfectly well. If the strike does go ahead, BA expects many of the flights from Gatwick to operate.
Secondly, there has been clear shock among many BA staff at the idea that they were ever signing up to 12 days of action. The cheers from union officials when the ballot was announced has also left a very bad taste in the mouth for many staff. Some officials appear to delight in destructive action.
Unite has said it will reballot but this time staff may be less willing to back industrial action over crewing issues that are nothing to do with safety or compulsory redundancies, but more to do with the way staff work.
As my page on The Telegraph website reveals – as it does every time I write about BA – passions run high on this issue. Staff point out that they do not want to be put in a position where they lose money. That is perfectly understandable, but Willie Walsh has to change the cost structure of BA, and its very high fixed staff costs in comparison to the rest of the industry, if BA is to survive.
If anyone is in any doubt about the importance of this to BA's future, read how may people say on web forums that BA could well go the way of British Leyland. There is the old joke that BA is a massive pensions deficit with a few aircraft attached. If the strike goes ahead and is extended, the company could be sucked into a downward spiral which would damage its very core.
The story that British Airways managers tell of the empty 747 British Airways flight from Prestwick to London reveals a lot about the disastrous set of problems BA is facing this weekend. The strikes may have been postponed, hopefully for good if the unions have any sense, but the issues which they reveal run deep and are not yet solved.
By Kamal Ahmed
Published: 7:15PM GMT 19 Dec 2009
In February, when the snow lay thick on the ground and Heathrow was closed, many flights were diverted to airports which were still open for traffic. One such flight, a BA service from Cape Town to London, was sent to Prestwick, kept snow free because of its proximity to the mild gulf stream waters of the Atlantic. Cabin crew, pilots and passengers were put up in local hotels and plans were made to fly them out again as soon as possible.
That was until the dreaded "workplace agreements" came into place. These documents, by which all industrial relations in BA are governed, are some of the most Byzantine set of rules and allowances in existence in the private sector. They have been built up over decades, some of the provisions stretching back to the dim and distant world of BOAC.
The agreements make it clear that managers at BA can only make decisions on matters that cause "severe disruption", such as the weather, "after agreement with the Trades Unions" including "contacting the chairperson of each of the Trade Unions" and "fully debriefing the Trades Unions", with decisions recorded in the "Worldwide Steering Minutes".
It sounds like someone has reached back to the 1970s and pulled the document straight off a dusty shelf marked "industrial relations from a different era".
On that snowy weekend, senior BA sources have told me, the quickest and most passenger-friendly thing to do was fly the plane back from Prestwick the next day to London. OK, everyone would be a day late, but at least they would be at the right destination.
But this, the managers say, clashed with the workplace agreements on two nights off after a long-haul flight. The pilots were happy to fly. The cabin crew were happy to fly. But the unions said no.
So, with no cabin crew, the plane flew back to London empty, taxis had to be called for the stranded passengers to get them to Glasgow and onto other domestic flights to London. Everyone wasted more time and there was more disruption. Passengers were sacrificed on the sacred altar of "workplace agreements".
The key question is, who runs BA? The managers, answerable to the board and shareholders, or the unions, answerable to their members? If it is the latter – and this fight over, at its simplest, how many cabin crew there are on a flight, suggest that it is – then BA will never get itself out of the horrible hole it finds itself in.
Gordon Brown and Lord Adonis, the Transport Secretary, know the mess being stored up here. I am told the Prime Minister rang Tony Woodley directly, urging a conciliatory approach, last week. Peter Mandelson, the Business Secretary, must be tearing his hair out over the damage this dispute has already done to BA and its bottom line. If the strikes go ahead in the New Year, the cost could be up to £20m a day. This, for a company that is set to lose more than £400m this financial year.
There are some glimmers of hope. Many of the BA cabin crew at Gatwick – incidentally paid far less than many of their colleagues at Heathrow – are already on the new crewing arrangements, which are working perfectly well. If the strike does go ahead, BA expects many of the flights from Gatwick to operate.
Secondly, there has been clear shock among many BA staff at the idea that they were ever signing up to 12 days of action. The cheers from union officials when the ballot was announced has also left a very bad taste in the mouth for many staff. Some officials appear to delight in destructive action.
Unite has said it will reballot but this time staff may be less willing to back industrial action over crewing issues that are nothing to do with safety or compulsory redundancies, but more to do with the way staff work.
As my page on The Telegraph website reveals – as it does every time I write about BA – passions run high on this issue. Staff point out that they do not want to be put in a position where they lose money. That is perfectly understandable, but Willie Walsh has to change the cost structure of BA, and its very high fixed staff costs in comparison to the rest of the industry, if BA is to survive.
If anyone is in any doubt about the importance of this to BA's future, read how may people say on web forums that BA could well go the way of British Leyland. There is the old joke that BA is a massive pensions deficit with a few aircraft attached. If the strike goes ahead and is extended, the company could be sucked into a downward spiral which would damage its very core.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Netherlands
Age: 58
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
- each side can find fault with the 'other side'; and
- that it is a given that were two parties are fighting two parties are to blame
- an impartial negotiator should be appointed who can develop an independent and binding solution.
Would you be up for that if BA management is too?
By the way: I am representing neither BA Cabin Crew nor BA Management. I am representing the customer who wants a reliable and financially solid airline and a happy and proud crew to make his trips a pleasure.
Please...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ask your self why has the company walked away at the latest attempt to negotiate?
They are simply not interested and now that they have the public and the media on their side, why bother?
They are simply not interested and now that they have the public and the media on their side, why bother?
Why didn't the BASSA reps accept the NDA to allow them to have access to the confidential figures detailing the accounts that BA were operating under?
Why did the BASSA reps insist on temporary solutions for temporary problems and offer useless, ill thought out and inaccurate savings whilst demanding them back in two years?
Why, instead of actually getting to grips with the problem of change after 20 years of militant, unionistic bravado, did the BASSA reps embark on a campaign of personal slander against the company management?
The company have walked away from the latest attempt to negotiate because Unite/BASSA want to wind the clock back to Jan/Feb 09 and start with a 'clean sheet'. Too late. VR has been granted the crewing levels must be reduced as the company doesn't have the staff any more to return to the old levels and Unite have confirmed this. Why should BA go in with a clean sheet? Everyone else has, over the past 10 years, streamlined their operations, taken cuts, changed fundamental T's & C's and, in the eyes of the other Unions enough is enough. Time for BASSA to accept change.
BASSA want to have their cake and eat, like all the times in the past, this time however they want to have the cake, eat it and then force BA to bake another one so they can trough that too.
Time for change!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: M3 usually!
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would like to ask why it is that Eurofleet cabin crew break their areements when it suits them .
(IE) Delays in and out of LHR when going on to a link i see it quite alot .
Asking ops to keep them on some nightstops that are worth good allowances even if they are say five to fifteen minutes out .Oh yes BASSA have given us special dispensation to carry on what a load of
.
(IE) Delays in and out of LHR when going on to a link i see it quite alot .
Asking ops to keep them on some nightstops that are worth good allowances even if they are say five to fifteen minutes out .Oh yes BASSA have given us special dispensation to carry on what a load of
.The fact is that they will only ever be kept to an itinerary if it suits Current Ops to do so i.e. they can't re-crew the flight. Usually when you phone to see what the plan is, the deed is already done and the new crew have been called off standby.
Likewise, wanting to lose a link. This will only happen if they can re-crew otherwise you do the link at whatever time you have finished the minimum break. The Cabin crew relationship with Ops is very inflexible which actually makes it fairer. Don't ask for favours, don't expect any and we'll all stick to the rules. That way there can be no accusations of nepotism.
This even extends to running late. It'd be a rare day that we can call to say we're running late and still be on the trip (maybe a DME). There are rarely spare Captains and FOs sitting around on standby so they have to wait for them; there are usually plenty of crew on standby so bye bye trip. So don't be fooled by any optimists who think that by asking they'll buck the system. Ask anyone from Ops and they'll confirm what I have said is true.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, we don't. We can agree that since
Would you be up for that if BA management is too?
By the way: I am representing neither BA Cabin Crew nor BA Management. I am representing the customer who wants a reliable and financially solid airline and a happy and proud crew to make his trips a pleasure.
Please...
- each side can find fault with the 'other side'; and
- that it is a given that were two parties are fighting two parties are to blame
- an impartial negotiator should be appointed who can develop an independent and binding solution.
Would you be up for that if BA management is too?
By the way: I am representing neither BA Cabin Crew nor BA Management. I am representing the customer who wants a reliable and financially solid airline and a happy and proud crew to make his trips a pleasure.
Please...
......I would give everything for both parties to come to an agreement. No one likes what is going on,but we need to stand up to dictatorship. I hope you'd agree with that.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Likewise, wanting to lose a link. This will only happen if they can re-crew otherwise you do the link at whatever time you have finished the minimum break. The Cabin crew relationship with Ops is very inflexible which actually makes it fairer. Don't ask for favours, don't expect any and we'll all stick to the rules. That way there can be no accusations of nepotism.
This even extends to running late. It'd be a rare day that we can call to say we're running late and still be on the trip (maybe a DME). There are rarely spare Captains and FOs sitting around on standby so they have to wait for them; there are usually plenty of crew on standby so bye bye trip. So don't be fooled by any optimists who think that by asking they'll buck the system. Ask anyone from Ops and they'll confirm what I have said is true.
This even extends to running late. It'd be a rare day that we can call to say we're running late and still be on the trip (maybe a DME). There are rarely spare Captains and FOs sitting around on standby so they have to wait for them; there are usually plenty of crew on standby so bye bye trip. So don't be fooled by any optimists who think that by asking they'll buck the system. Ask anyone from Ops and they'll confirm what I have said is true.
Yes that is my recollection of the SH situation - but it doesn't stop the "we need five minutes for a CAT payment/ chocks by xx to stay on our lucrative ZRH n/stop / yy minutes to lose our linked trip" requests from the cabin crew.
But more than that, the above is symptomatic of the problems and areas in which BA need to make efficiencies in the operation. As you say, there aren't generally any pilots standing by at the airport (maybe one/two Airbus crews in the early morning) and certainly none to cater for industrial agreement reasons. Imagine the cost to BA of having about 50 or so cabin crew sitting around all day (in fact they number probably 100 or so in various shifts) to cater for the missed links and no-shows.
What should happen is that the pilots and cabin have the same roster for the 1, 2, 3 or 4 day trip and stay together - a novel solution, invented everwhere else but in BA! Yes, I know that the current agreements have crew leaving and joining for certain sectors due to the club loads/aircraft type, but fundamentally, if only your reps had been prepared to get around the table and negotiate, we would not be where we are now.
I know that this dispute is not about that and that these T&C's are not being changed ..... yet. They will form the SH side of the discussions yet to come alongside the LH disruption agreement. The point stands though, if BASSA had been pro-active, New Fleet could have been off the table, but their 'talk to the hand' approach has just hastened the day when it is formed.
Too little movement ..... too late.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Romans
Absolutely, we must all stand up to BASSA, they are the dictatorship here; they must be destroyed once and for all, and the company retaken for the benefit of all the employees and the shareholders and the British public alike.
No one likes what is going on, but we need to stand up to dictatorship. I hope you'd agree with that.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Netherlands
Age: 58
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or we forget about who is right or wrong, the cause, the culprit etc and we just start fresh with a mediator without all this baggage.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All of the other Unions have managed to negotiate some form of agreed settlement. Why is it that BASSA is the only Union who would not accept anything that was put to them
Even BALPA's agreement is not sealed yet. Their agreement will be implemented in its entirety once the company has reached an agreement with all the other departments.
I have friends who work on the ground and they tell me that no agreemnt has been reached for staff on the ground....
Do you know something they don't?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or we forget about who is right or wrong, the cause, the culprit etc and we just start fresh with a mediator without all this baggage.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
ever thought of getting a job as a mediator?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All of the other Unions have managed to negotiate some form of agreed settlement. Why is it that BASSA is the only Union who would not accept anything that was put to them
Even BALPA's agreement is not sealed yet. Their agreement will be implemented in its entirety once the company has reached an agreement with all the other departments.
I have friends who work on the ground and they tell me that no agreemnt has been reached for staff on the ground....
Do you know something they don't?
The pilot's backstop in their agreement (all reverts to normal end of March 2010 unless all other groups sign off) is as a result of the previous form of BASSA when BALPA have agreed to changes and BASSA have done their traditional (and in the past, quite successful) toy throwing.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As Human Factor has alluded to the 'backstop' was placed in the BALPA agreement as the hystrical hissy fit known as BASSA was, once again, throwing the entire contents of 'Toys 'R' Us' out of its oversized pram.
Once again those Unions, and I mean all the Unions not just BALPA, who are proactive have agreed deals. Unfortunately the nature of BASSA is so well known that the other Unions have decided to 'protect' themselves from having to stump up the BASSA savings as well.
Well done Lizanne!
Once again those Unions, and I mean all the Unions not just BALPA, who are proactive have agreed deals. Unfortunately the nature of BASSA is so well known that the other Unions have decided to 'protect' themselves from having to stump up the BASSA savings as well.
Well done Lizanne!
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What wobble is alluding to is the fact that BA and Unite reached agreement in November regarding the groundstaff. Unite have refrained from signing the agreement to avoid putting the cabin crew in the untenable position of being seen to be the only department not to have co-operated
I find that hard to believe but I don't know so I shall take your word for it.
Do you work on the ground?
I will pass your information to my friends and see what they make of it.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Netherlands
Age: 58
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have some experience mediating these kind of conflicts but never on this scale though. I am sure that very capable mediators can be found. Acas (?) is offering as far as I have understood.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As Human Factor has alluded to the 'backstop' was placed in the BALPA agreement as the hystrical hissy fit known as BASSA was, once again, throwing the entire contents of 'Toys 'R' Us' out of its oversized pram.
Do you actually believe that BALPA would allow BASSA to do that...How naive of you.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But would BASSA listen to an independant arbitrator...... me thinks......no, too mant vested interests
I presume that the pro strike posters on here could put this up as a suggestion to Lady Lala and her cronies and would be interested in the 'actual' respose from CF
Hey but who knows a way forward may be apparent. Henkybaby fancy one last job before you go on your holidays - you appear to be a voice both sides could listen to???!!!!!
I presume that the pro strike posters on here could put this up as a suggestion to Lady Lala and her cronies and would be interested in the 'actual' respose from CF
Hey but who knows a way forward may be apparent. Henkybaby fancy one last job before you go on your holidays - you appear to be a voice both sides could listen to???!!!!!
Last edited by cym; 20th Dec 2009 at 18:37. Reason: grammer