British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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I am still amazed that the pilots on this forum still do not understand that they have been played by Walsh, being offered the cushy deal to get them onside. Walsh had to get a group to settle quickly so that would put pressure on the rest and of course it would look good in the Press. The pilots in BA are being lined up for a sucker punch later.
I don't think BA would be stupid enough to introduce Lord Haw-Haw characters onto this thread: BASSA are quite capable of making themselves look utterly stupid through publication of such letters as that 20 or so posts previously.
Just as you disagree with me and many others on this thread, that does not make us propaganda. It means we have a difference of opinion, which in adult-land, we debate.
A 16-year old not only has better grammar, but could write more effectively on the matters at hand, and not on emotional terms.
Last edited by Re-Heat; 17th Jul 2009 at 09:26.
PIB,
I am not BA, but I have experienced the "delights" of working with BASSA members and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Pilots were cosying up with WW to help sort out some of their more crazy practices.
For instance, Cabin Crew who on a relatively long MAN MXP sector refuse to serve their customers with a hot breakfast because they are working one down (three crew instead of four). They still managed to cook their own breakfast and in the process fill the cabin with the smell of hot food. Meanwhile, 100 meals get binned and many pax including some in Club decide to bin BA.
This nonsense only lasted for a short time before the pilots insisted if the pax weren't getting hot food, neither were the crew. Now where is that galley overrride switch?
I am not BA, but I have experienced the "delights" of working with BASSA members and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Pilots were cosying up with WW to help sort out some of their more crazy practices.
For instance, Cabin Crew who on a relatively long MAN MXP sector refuse to serve their customers with a hot breakfast because they are working one down (three crew instead of four). They still managed to cook their own breakfast and in the process fill the cabin with the smell of hot food. Meanwhile, 100 meals get binned and many pax including some in Club decide to bin BA.
This nonsense only lasted for a short time before the pilots insisted if the pax weren't getting hot food, neither were the crew. Now where is that galley overrride switch?
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Yes Re-Heat, but the little aircraft then (1-11's or 737-200's) did not hold 184 passengers.
Well Biddedout. You do not mention if there was turbulence on the flight or any other reason why the meals could not be served. Are you saying that the hot m eals are dumped every day? I don't think so. You have just "served up" one isolated incident to make a weak point. Even LGW cabin crew have admitted here that three crew on an A319 or 737-700 is an almost impossible task.
I frequently fly out of LGW and with three cabin crew on a 737-700, they barely have time to complete the bar round/sandwich service on a 1hr.45 minute sector.
However I would agree that it was insensistive of the crew then to cook their own meals. But with new low pay contracts, we don't attract the staff that we used to.
Well Biddedout. You do not mention if there was turbulence on the flight or any other reason why the meals could not be served. Are you saying that the hot m eals are dumped every day? I don't think so. You have just "served up" one isolated incident to make a weak point. Even LGW cabin crew have admitted here that three crew on an A319 or 737-700 is an almost impossible task.
I frequently fly out of LGW and with three cabin crew on a 737-700, they barely have time to complete the bar round/sandwich service on a 1hr.45 minute sector.
However I would agree that it was insensistive of the crew then to cook their own meals. But with new low pay contracts, we don't attract the staff that we used to.
Last edited by Poof in Boots; 17th Jul 2009 at 10:16.
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Just to mention that Price Waterhouse Cooper are in BA's pocket allegedly and it is a foregone conclusion they will side with BA.
It is purely an academic exercise and fools no one, especially BASSA. BASSA have had their own savings independently assessed and validated, so it does not move the argument on any further
It is purely an academic exercise and fools no one, especially BASSA. BASSA have had their own savings independently assessed and validated, so it does not move the argument on any further
Last edited by Poof in Boots; 17th Jul 2009 at 12:28.
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Lufthansa in job cuts to staunch losses
Poof in Boots
Don't tell BASSA, they think this has all been made up by Willie to screw their members
FT.com / Companies / Airlines - Lufthansa in job cuts to staunch losses
Don't tell BASSA, they think this has all been made up by Willie to screw their members
FT.com / Companies / Airlines - Lufthansa in job cuts to staunch losses
Lufthansa in job cuts to staunch losses
By Kevin Done in London and Gerrit Wiesmann in Frankfurt
Published: July 16 2009 18:19 | Last updated: July 16 2009 18:19
Lufthansa is being forced to cut jobs in its main airline division and to defer deliveries of new aircraft as part of emergency measures to staunch rising losses.
The German carrier said it was seeking to cut costs by about €1bn by the end of 2011 in an effort to reverse the rapid erosion of its competitive position against rival airlines.
Lufthansa has previously been slow to acknowledge publicly the scale of the challenge it faces, but Christoph Franz, the newly appointed chief executive of the main Lufthansa airline division and deputy group chief executive, warned on Thursday the airline industry was suffering “the worst crisis in its history.”
In a tough letter to airline division staff, he said the “exceptional” decline in demand and passenger numbers was being exacerbated by an “alarming” drop in yields (average fares).
The airline was “not earning enough to cover costs” and would report this month a continuing trend of losses for the first six months of the year.
Mr Franz said Lufthansa losses would “increase significantly” in the coming year due in particular to the rise in fuel costs, unless there was an improvement in market conditions.
Previous efforts to cut costs, reduce capacity and slow capital investment in the crisis had proved insufficient.
Mr Franz warned Lufthansa had become uncompetitive. ”Many of our competitors are today producing at distincly more favourable cost levels and can woo important customer groups away from us with more attractive fares,” he said. The economic crisis had “bluntly” exposed the group’s weakness, he said only days after taking over as head of the division.
Measures would include a 20 per cent cut in administrative staff in the airline, a loss of 400 jobs.
The German carrier, the biggest aviation group in Europe measured by turnover, warned suppliers they would have to share the pain and Mr Franz said shrinking cashflow would force the group to consider deferring deliveries of new aircraft from Boeing and Airbus from next year.
Lufthansa has one of the most ambitious order schedules for new aircraft of any airline in Europe with 160 jets – valued at €16bn at list prices before discounts – that must be financed between 2008 and 2014.
The group has already been one of the most active airlines in the capital market this year with two bond issues, the most recent this month to raise €750m, as it seeks to shore up its shrinking cash resources.
British Airways said this week it was being forced to raise fresh capital, most probably through a convertible bond issue.
In recent weeks Air France-KLM raised €661m through a six-year convertible bond issue, while airlines such as Qantas and All Nippon Airways have also raised fresh equity.
Iata, the global airline trade association, warned on Thursday that the latest passenger travel numbers cast doubt on the view a bottom had been reached in the in air travel.
Total passenger numbers fell by 9.2 per cent in May, the largest fall so far this year. Most alarmingly for long-haul network carriers like Lufthansa, Air France-KLM and BA, the numbers travelling on premium tickets were down by 23.8 per cent in May, after a decline of 22 per cent in April and a 19.2 fall in the first quarter.
Iata estimated revenues from premium passengers, traditionally the most lucrative segment, fell by 40-45 per cent in May.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2009
By Kevin Done in London and Gerrit Wiesmann in Frankfurt
Published: July 16 2009 18:19 | Last updated: July 16 2009 18:19
Lufthansa is being forced to cut jobs in its main airline division and to defer deliveries of new aircraft as part of emergency measures to staunch rising losses.
The German carrier said it was seeking to cut costs by about €1bn by the end of 2011 in an effort to reverse the rapid erosion of its competitive position against rival airlines.
Lufthansa has previously been slow to acknowledge publicly the scale of the challenge it faces, but Christoph Franz, the newly appointed chief executive of the main Lufthansa airline division and deputy group chief executive, warned on Thursday the airline industry was suffering “the worst crisis in its history.”
In a tough letter to airline division staff, he said the “exceptional” decline in demand and passenger numbers was being exacerbated by an “alarming” drop in yields (average fares).
The airline was “not earning enough to cover costs” and would report this month a continuing trend of losses for the first six months of the year.
Mr Franz said Lufthansa losses would “increase significantly” in the coming year due in particular to the rise in fuel costs, unless there was an improvement in market conditions.
Previous efforts to cut costs, reduce capacity and slow capital investment in the crisis had proved insufficient.
Mr Franz warned Lufthansa had become uncompetitive. ”Many of our competitors are today producing at distincly more favourable cost levels and can woo important customer groups away from us with more attractive fares,” he said. The economic crisis had “bluntly” exposed the group’s weakness, he said only days after taking over as head of the division.
Measures would include a 20 per cent cut in administrative staff in the airline, a loss of 400 jobs.
The German carrier, the biggest aviation group in Europe measured by turnover, warned suppliers they would have to share the pain and Mr Franz said shrinking cashflow would force the group to consider deferring deliveries of new aircraft from Boeing and Airbus from next year.
Lufthansa has one of the most ambitious order schedules for new aircraft of any airline in Europe with 160 jets – valued at €16bn at list prices before discounts – that must be financed between 2008 and 2014.
The group has already been one of the most active airlines in the capital market this year with two bond issues, the most recent this month to raise €750m, as it seeks to shore up its shrinking cash resources.
British Airways said this week it was being forced to raise fresh capital, most probably through a convertible bond issue.
In recent weeks Air France-KLM raised €661m through a six-year convertible bond issue, while airlines such as Qantas and All Nippon Airways have also raised fresh equity.
Iata, the global airline trade association, warned on Thursday that the latest passenger travel numbers cast doubt on the view a bottom had been reached in the in air travel.
Total passenger numbers fell by 9.2 per cent in May, the largest fall so far this year. Most alarmingly for long-haul network carriers like Lufthansa, Air France-KLM and BA, the numbers travelling on premium tickets were down by 23.8 per cent in May, after a decline of 22 per cent in April and a 19.2 fall in the first quarter.
Iata estimated revenues from premium passengers, traditionally the most lucrative segment, fell by 40-45 per cent in May.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2009
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Just to mention that Price Waterhouse Cooper are in BA's pocket and it is a foregone conclusion they will side with BA.
You are not right by simply repeating your unsubstantiated opinion repeatedly!!!
They are tasked to cost the proposals, not to form an opinion on anything at all!
It is purely an academic exercise and fools no one, especially BASSA.
Last edited by Re-Heat; 17th Jul 2009 at 10:36.
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I was starting to miss PiB's factless rantings. Is he not just a teenager trying to stir things up?
Lufthansa has just announced they will slash annual costs by 1 BILLION euros by 2011. But that's from ess news so it must be company propaganda
Don't let facts get in the way of a good rant. Oh hang on, you don't do facts, only threats
Lufthansa has just announced they will slash annual costs by 1 BILLION euros by 2011. But that's from ess news so it must be company propaganda
Don't let facts get in the way of a good rant. Oh hang on, you don't do facts, only threats
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Yes Re-Heat, but the little aircraft then (1-11's or 737-200's) did not hold 184 passengers.
British Airways - Club Europe seat maps
Assuming curtain is where it is on the flight:
B737-400: 114pax (128 domestic)
A319: 118pax (132 domestic)
B737-200 had a standard of 115pax, and B1-11 500 of 119pax
Pretty similar then.
Shall we return to aircraft recognition 101? You need a domestic A321 to fit 184pax with 4 free seats. Not many of those in the fleet, which would operate with larger legal minimum crew than 3 regardless...
Last edited by Re-Heat; 17th Jul 2009 at 10:58.
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Just to mention that Price Waterhouse Cooper are in BA's pocket and it is a foregone conclusion they will side with BA.
PIB,
This occured quite often and it was on a litle RJ on a 2 hour sector. I am not at all anti union, I just think that in this sort of situation, the BASSA reps would have been better employed tackling an ongoing undercrewing situation with management directly and issuing a formal warning (threat) if it was not sorted out, rather than just sticking rigidly to old outdated agreements and practices and p***ing of customers along the way.
I guess the whole thing is about electrics. There has been a long term intermittent electrical fault somewhere in the galley area. BASSA the fuse is getting hotter and hotter and is about to blow. Meanwhile, Willie the Central Eelectrical Distribution Computer is calmly diagnosing and illiminating the fault through a bit of load shedding. Once it is sorted he will press the override restore all services. The pilots might not fully trust Willie the clever computer, but they are doing their duty and considering all options in order to try and help save the airframe.
Fingers crossed all round though because the computer is not always right.
I have just read ths again, YUK
Sorry!
This occured quite often and it was on a litle RJ on a 2 hour sector. I am not at all anti union, I just think that in this sort of situation, the BASSA reps would have been better employed tackling an ongoing undercrewing situation with management directly and issuing a formal warning (threat) if it was not sorted out, rather than just sticking rigidly to old outdated agreements and practices and p***ing of customers along the way.
I guess the whole thing is about electrics. There has been a long term intermittent electrical fault somewhere in the galley area. BASSA the fuse is getting hotter and hotter and is about to blow. Meanwhile, Willie the Central Eelectrical Distribution Computer is calmly diagnosing and illiminating the fault through a bit of load shedding. Once it is sorted he will press the override restore all services. The pilots might not fully trust Willie the clever computer, but they are doing their duty and considering all options in order to try and help save the airframe.
Fingers crossed all round though because the computer is not always right.
I have just read ths again, YUK
Sorry!
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However I would agree that it was insensistive of the crew then to cook their own meals. But with new low pay contracts, we don't attract the staff that we used to.
Brilliant.
You really do represent the whole group and not just the senior crew now, don't you.
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I remember seeing ex-Concorde crew do a full service on a full 319 (50+ in Club) with just four crew , on a short flight, with time to spare. That flight would be rostered 6 crew out of LHR. It can be done, they just don't want to do it.
PWC will of course agree with BA. BA have done the sums on their figures, BASSA have just plucked the numbers out of thin air.
STOP PRESS: BASSA have now thrown a hissy fit because BA took down some offensive notices from their notice board. The temerity of BA! Imagine objecting to inflammatory notices being posted on their own premises. How dare they tell BASSA what to do?
PWC will of course agree with BA. BA have done the sums on their figures, BASSA have just plucked the numbers out of thin air.
STOP PRESS: BASSA have now thrown a hissy fit because BA took down some offensive notices from their notice board. The temerity of BA! Imagine objecting to inflammatory notices being posted on their own premises. How dare they tell BASSA what to do?
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PiB,
And yet they still get the job done. Oh and Bassa agreed to it!!!
Once again, they manage to complete the service!!! So it can be done! Maybe not at the leisurely pace that you are used to, but......
Yet another insult to 'other' crew eh? Bassa agreed to the new contracts, so the decline in 'service standards' (not my opinion by the way - ie new/temp contract crew are genarally excellent) is also Bassas' fault - just using your type of logic here!
So, as mentioned by a poster above, I'm sure that Bassa have therefore made a complaint to the appropriate authorities regarding the industrial/financial fraud that is about to take place - or is everyone in Willies pocket?
PiB,
Re Bassa's break down: Er has no one wondered how they managed to come up with the 'savings' value BEFORE they undertook detailed calculations? Basically, they plucked some 'value' out of thin air then did the 'sums' to make it work!!!!
so of course the PWC figures are highly likely to be different from Bassas!!!!
SS
Ps can you remind me of the financial qualifications that the Bassa reps have - and compare them to PWC
Even LGW cabin crew have admitted here that three crew on an A319 or 737-700 is an almost impossible task.
I frequently fly out of LGW and with three cabin crew on a 737-700, they barely have time to complete the bar round/sandwich service on a 1hr.45 minute sector.
But with new low pay contracts, we don't attract the staff that we used to
Just to mention that Price Waterhouse Cooper are in BA's pocket and it is a foregone conclusion they will side with BA.
It is purely an academic exercise and fools no one, especially BASSA.
It is purely an academic exercise and fools no one, especially BASSA.
PiB,
Re Bassa's break down: Er has no one wondered how they managed to come up with the 'savings' value BEFORE they undertook detailed calculations? Basically, they plucked some 'value' out of thin air then did the 'sums' to make it work!!!!
so of course the PWC figures are highly likely to be different from Bassas!!!!
SS
Ps can you remind me of the financial qualifications that the Bassa reps have - and compare them to PWC
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I do enjoy reading this thread, but can't see a pain free way out.
1/ Too hi above market rate.
2/ Too big a staff population. (15k out of 40k staff)
3/ Too hi T+Cs.
4/ Too many rules and regulations in CC favour.
The above is due to both the unions and management over many many years, management take the lions share, but the unions did not look after the long term interests of their members, between them both, they have left the average CC staff member in a bad position, they will now see 20 years of change in a very short time.
The change required appears to be very large and would expect IA at some time, the next few months may not be happy, my best wishes are with the CC for the longer term, your work/life balance will be taking a big hit forever.
1/ Too hi above market rate.
2/ Too big a staff population. (15k out of 40k staff)
3/ Too hi T+Cs.
4/ Too many rules and regulations in CC favour.
The above is due to both the unions and management over many many years, management take the lions share, but the unions did not look after the long term interests of their members, between them both, they have left the average CC staff member in a bad position, they will now see 20 years of change in a very short time.
The change required appears to be very large and would expect IA at some time, the next few months may not be happy, my best wishes are with the CC for the longer term, your work/life balance will be taking a big hit forever.
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It is tempting to write a 5000 word analysis in regards to the who's and why's etc.....however I would just like to contribute 3 points that really sum up the whole argument;
1) Yes - BA management bear a large proportion of the blame here as they have allowed the T&C's to develop as they have in LHR. In addition the awful stratefic decisions have put the company in a poor competitive position (the sale of 'GO', letting GB merge into EZY, atrociously poor route planning etc)
2) BASSA - all I can say about them is: LGW. It is all we need to show what you are and as much point 1 refers to poor management you are guilty of betrayel and an awful lot more.
3) Does LHR W&P need to change - oh boy! Yes they do! There seems to be this idea that LHR BA Crew are the best in the industry; you are not, you never have been and never will be. From a customers POV the GB Airways crew (in BA colours) were by far out performing you and working a damn side harder (and for a whole lot less money!). As do the great crew of other UK carriers such as TOM or TCX etc etc.....
It is tempting to state all the inconsistencies between LGW and LHR and it is a shame that in the media this distinction is not made. At the bottom end (BA LGW starting salaries and CC general working conditions (shift pay etc)) cabin crew deserve a whole lot more......at the top end (LHR) you need to come way down the mountain....
1) Yes - BA management bear a large proportion of the blame here as they have allowed the T&C's to develop as they have in LHR. In addition the awful stratefic decisions have put the company in a poor competitive position (the sale of 'GO', letting GB merge into EZY, atrociously poor route planning etc)
2) BASSA - all I can say about them is: LGW. It is all we need to show what you are and as much point 1 refers to poor management you are guilty of betrayel and an awful lot more.
3) Does LHR W&P need to change - oh boy! Yes they do! There seems to be this idea that LHR BA Crew are the best in the industry; you are not, you never have been and never will be. From a customers POV the GB Airways crew (in BA colours) were by far out performing you and working a damn side harder (and for a whole lot less money!). As do the great crew of other UK carriers such as TOM or TCX etc etc.....
It is tempting to state all the inconsistencies between LGW and LHR and it is a shame that in the media this distinction is not made. At the bottom end (BA LGW starting salaries and CC general working conditions (shift pay etc)) cabin crew deserve a whole lot more......at the top end (LHR) you need to come way down the mountain....
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The fact that BA has chosen PWC to do the analysis is not a libel to suggest that they will find in BA's favour
BA seeks buyer for OpenSkies airline - Telegraph
With this news, Willie Walsh'; tenure at BA must be over. There is no way that I or any of my colleagues should give a penny when money is squandered on this scale.
In the last three years, certainly since May 2005, British Airways has suffered a Board, CEO, CFO and Chairman ( who? what's his name?) that have brought it to the brink of disaster from record profits in less than 12 months. I am not again going to list all of the financial hits that BA has taken due to management alleged criminal contact, resultant fines, humiliation, the talking of the business down by its CEO and so on.
I would rather see the airline go bust than support the current LT in BA.
BA seeks buyer for OpenSkies airline - Telegraph
With this news, Willie Walsh'; tenure at BA must be over. There is no way that I or any of my colleagues should give a penny when money is squandered on this scale.
In the last three years, certainly since May 2005, British Airways has suffered a Board, CEO, CFO and Chairman ( who? what's his name?) that have brought it to the brink of disaster from record profits in less than 12 months. I am not again going to list all of the financial hits that BA has taken due to management alleged criminal contact, resultant fines, humiliation, the talking of the business down by its CEO and so on.
I would rather see the airline go bust than support the current LT in BA.
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It is a libel if you claim that that PWC will find in favour of BA because they are in some way biased or an impartial manner. It is not a libel if you say they will find in favour of BA because BASSA has in fact no case and BA is correct in its arguments.
As for Willie Walsh leaving I think if you look back to the AGM just a few days ago he was pretty well endorsed by the shareholders.
However, it does seem that merely saying something does make it fact in BASSA world - truth is an alien concept there.
As for Willie Walsh leaving I think if you look back to the AGM just a few days ago he was pretty well endorsed by the shareholders.
However, it does seem that merely saying something does make it fact in BASSA world - truth is an alien concept there.
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The fact that BA has chosen PWC to do the analysis is not a libel to suggest that they will find in BA's favour
If you find a conflict of interest for whatever reason, choose your own firm to do the work for you. Hire Deloitte. But don't accuse professional firms of being liars and bribe-takers: that is an insult to the professionalism of those people.
PWC is independent of BA and BA pay them the appropriate fee to cost the proposals independently. I see no conflict, and until you deliver proof that the team doing this work is indeed bribed by or has worked internally for BA before, then present it here and we shall all assess the situation independently. Otherwise, cease and desist from you libellous insinuations.
>99% of shareholders in favour of WW and the board. Really, you need to open your eyes - the shareholders are behind the management!