British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
Join Date: Jan 2007
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If as individuals you want to lay down and let willi FCUK you silly whilst you brown your noses, why dont you ask BILL if you folks can sign the agreement that he has put forward.
so called teachers pets
Threatening your colleagues is called 'bullying'..... have a look at the BASSA forum, apparently your reps feel very strongly about this issue! You may even find yourself on a 'list'. Then again you're not a BA pilot so maybe the same rules don't apply to you!!!!
kittenheals
Well said, and I assure you that you are not alone. I just did a trip with a fantastic crew. There was one really militant member that sparked a (I have to say civilised) debate. Lots of Q's were asked about the BALPA/pilot deal and the economics involved, and when the record was set straight even Ms Militant was lost for words!!!! (I later, lent her the same document which was made available to your BASSA reps! - no real comments were forthcoming from her after she read it)
The over-riding feeling at the end of the evening was as you (kittenheals) stated above.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I support the crew 100%, however you are not being represented professionally or even adequately. Bassa are sinking lower and lower with their desperate attempts to prevent accurate information reaching the crew community - be that by asking crew to report pilots or allowing threatening posts on the bassa forum to remain.
Keep thinking for yourselves and keep questioning bassas' motives!
SS
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The 3rd way?
So one the one hand we have bassa, on the other hand we have cc89. And clutching-on with an iron-like grip to both those hands, is unite.
Maybe time to make it interesting and have a 3rd, INDEPENDANT union.
Any takers? (or maybe more usefully, any ideas?)
Maybe time to make it interesting and have a 3rd, INDEPENDANT union.
Any takers? (or maybe more usefully, any ideas?)
Join Date: Jun 1999
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NJR - perhaps people belong to a union because they wish to be represented? In BASSAs case they seem to have forgotten this and instead wish to dictate to their members what they will or will not do. I fear you're going to be in for a big shock when the less militant majority finally tire of being dragged along the warpath to a battle they've no intention of fighting.
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I very rarely post here, although I read it many times... Just to say a big 
to kittenheals - very well said!!!
NJR, your last post is very sad really! I am W/W crew and really hope I never fly with you because if that is the sort of attitude you have on board with your colleagues with remarks such as "your life is made miserable"... I can tell you that I simply would not tolerate it. You asked us why are we with BASSA and implying the likes of kittenheals (and I include myselfand) should have our life made miserable i.e. be bullied and harrased; so may I ask you why dont you just leave BA if you feel so unhappy?
to kittenheals - very well said!!!NJR, your last post is very sad really! I am W/W crew and really hope I never fly with you because if that is the sort of attitude you have on board with your colleagues with remarks such as "your life is made miserable"... I can tell you that I simply would not tolerate it. You asked us why are we with BASSA and implying the likes of kittenheals (and I include myselfand) should have our life made miserable i.e. be bullied and harrased; so may I ask you why dont you just leave BA if you feel so unhappy?
NJR posts this:
Well BASSA are doing precisely the same thing to any of its members (or non-members) - making their lives a misery with barely veiled threats and the like! They don't need to belong to the RMT to experience the behaviour you so obviously approve of. And anyone who has to resort to calling those that have a differing, but valid, opinion as 'brown-nosers' or 'teachers pets' is clearly lacking an argument. You sound like a playground bully NJR - disgraceful!
Its a good thing that some of you do not belong to the RMT, if you belong to them and dont tow the line, your life is made misserable.
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NJR wrote:
RMT members may have good T&Cs but most members also work for what are tantamount to essential services and publicly subsidised near monopolies with little alternatives. Hence, why so many users of London Underground want Bob Crow's head on a plate.
BA has to stand on its own two feet and its customers (many of whom have already been pushed to the limit in recent years due to wildcat strikes, other strike threats, baggage handling problems etc) have plenty of alternatives.
Before you guys start slagging off the RMT, just have a look at their working practices,the best in the industry.Because as a membership they stick together. A lesson maybe learnt from them.
BA has to stand on its own two feet and its customers (many of whom have already been pushed to the limit in recent years due to wildcat strikes, other strike threats, baggage handling problems etc) have plenty of alternatives.
Last edited by LD12986; 16th Jul 2009 at 19:53.
Join Date: Jun 2009
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The union seems to be panicking more often (puerile attacks and questioning PWC's motives!). I do rather think that the more gobby supporters on crew forum have been primed (and brain washed), however, the regular postings of the usual suspects do not reflect how most of us feel, IMHO.
It's a brave person over there who dares to raise any questions - but the gobby ones daren't come on here cos you lot seem ready for them
It's a brave person over there who dares to raise any questions - but the gobby ones daren't come on here cos you lot seem ready for them
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Hmm, I'm no economist, but NJR really does need to wake up to market realities, with his rant about the RMT. There is only one way you can be a London Underground driver, and that is by working for them. There are many ways you can be cabin crew in this World. There is only one way many Londoners can get to work, and that is the Underground. There many ways you can fly to your destination in this World, and it doesn't have to be BA.
Do you understand NJR? The RMT can hold London to ransom, by withdrawal of labour. BA cabin crew can try, but the customers will go elsewhere, and the company will go bust. Unfortunately NJR, you are not such a rare commodity, in the labour market as a train driver, and your company does not have a monopoly; best wake up to the fact.
Do you understand NJR? The RMT can hold London to ransom, by withdrawal of labour. BA cabin crew can try, but the customers will go elsewhere, and the company will go bust. Unfortunately NJR, you are not such a rare commodity, in the labour market as a train driver, and your company does not have a monopoly; best wake up to the fact.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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It's a brave person over there who dares to raise any questions - but the gobby ones daren't come on here cos you lot seem ready for them...
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There seems a number of crew who belive that our T+C's are out of date and BASSA are to militant. Can I ask why these individuals belong to such a union.
The RMT is far from indutry-leading. It is a union that has imposed such high costs on TfL, that my rail travel through London cost more than most other cities, and I subsidise it further through my taxes as even the fares do not cover the inflated costs of RMT union members sitting on their rear for just 30 hours a week at a salary that is above that of most people I know for that level of expertise and training.
Further, the drivers are typically non-RMT: it is the station staff with "essential" safety functions that are RMT and hold the systme in hock to an outdated union. The problem is that nobody listens anymore when they claim that any such function is safety-related as so much has been unnecessarily included within that bracket. A dangerous situtation in my opinion were real safety concerns to arise.
There is a huge difference between defending good Ts and Cs, and being aware of what the competitive position in which you operate. The RMT operates on a tube system that has no competitor against it - people cannot get on flying scooters to work instead. BA however has plenty of strong competitors with lower and more flexible costs bases, and for that very reason, BASSA's position is wholly untenable.
I shall devote my next post to the crass insinuations about PWC, which have really, really infuriated me.
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Great news today that BA have taken £600m in convertible bonds etc. Now they definitely cannot afford to squander that money on a strike.
Time for Walsh to see the reality of the situation. BA is not Aer Lingus who were a pushover for him. Imagine how Aer Lingus staff must have felt when they were threatened with doom and gloom after 9/11 by Walsh, cut their pay and T&C's, only to see the company make a record profit of E107m in the financial year 2003/04.
It is not going to happen at BA.
Time for Walsh to see the reality of the situation. BA is not Aer Lingus who were a pushover for him. Imagine how Aer Lingus staff must have felt when they were threatened with doom and gloom after 9/11 by Walsh, cut their pay and T&C's, only to see the company make a record profit of E107m in the financial year 2003/04.
It is not going to happen at BA.
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Do you think BA are doing this for a laugh? It is highly expensive to raise more money from shareholders.
BBC: BA announces plan to raise £600m
The economic downturn has hit demand for air travel
British Airways plans to raise £600m to help it get through difficult trading conditions, the airline has said.
It will issue £300m in convertible bonds to existing shareholders and release bank guarantees from its UK defined benefit pension schemes.
Observers say the carrier wants a safety net in case it faces industrial action from cabin crew over pay, as well as tough summer trading.
BA predicts it lost about £100m in the three months to the end of June.
"Following discussions with institutional investors, we're taking action to improve our liquidity and strengthen our position within the industry," BA chief executive Willie Walsh said.
"This goes hand-in-hand with our cost reduction and efficiency initiatives which are designed to create the right conditions for our sustainable, long term profitability."
BBC: BA announces plan to raise £600m
The economic downturn has hit demand for air travel
British Airways plans to raise £600m to help it get through difficult trading conditions, the airline has said.
It will issue £300m in convertible bonds to existing shareholders and release bank guarantees from its UK defined benefit pension schemes.
Observers say the carrier wants a safety net in case it faces industrial action from cabin crew over pay, as well as tough summer trading.
BA predicts it lost about £100m in the three months to the end of June.
"Following discussions with institutional investors, we're taking action to improve our liquidity and strengthen our position within the industry," BA chief executive Willie Walsh said.
"This goes hand-in-hand with our cost reduction and efficiency initiatives which are designed to create the right conditions for our sustainable, long term profitability."
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Just to pick up on Re-Heats point. You and others here on this forum can quote other airlines with lower costs than BA until the cows come home.
Why don't you mention those competitors with higher costs than BA? That is most of the major US carriers, also Air France/KLM, Lufthansa, IBERIA...I could go on.
Why don't you mention those competitors with higher costs than BA? That is most of the major US carriers, also Air France/KLM, Lufthansa, IBERIA...I could go on.
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BA is not Aer Lingus who were a pushover for him. Imagine how Aer Lingus staff must have felt when they were threatened with doom and gloom after 9/11 by Walsh, cut their pay and T&C's, only to see the company make a record profit of E107m in the financial year 2003/04.
The shareholders are, ironically, largely pensions schemes investing through fund managers who are working to enhance the retirement provisions of the population at large. Think about it.
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I honestly believe there are robust plans already in place by the company if there is any IA. Unfortunatley, some blinkered sheeplike crew blindly follow Bassa without asking any "awkward" questions.
One who did actually had the "cheek" on a forum to ask why (quite reasonably, IMHO)Bassa had not attended some meetings (before ACAS was called in) got a robust telling off by the chairperson along the lines of "you should have emailed me about this".
I suspect we'll never know what's true or not
One who did actually had the "cheek" on a forum to ask why (quite reasonably, IMHO)Bassa had not attended some meetings (before ACAS was called in) got a robust telling off by the chairperson along the lines of "you should have emailed me about this".
I suspect we'll never know what's true or not
Ah well, PiB! Time will tell, and not much time either! And most here have little doubt that it will be BASSA and their noisy supporters who will be eating their hats - hope you enjoy eating yours!
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PWC is a global accounting firm. E&Y is BA's auditor, and PWC is therefore independent of the auditing process and of the preparation of BA's accounts that are produced internally. BA has not objected to BASSA running a similar exercise to BALPA, but in offering to facilitate the same process with BASSA find that the independent accountants are attacked as being biased.
Enron was a company that operated on the fringes, but within, US accounting rules for the purpose of hiding undislosed losses in off-balance sheet vehicles that were not disclosed to shareholders. Andersen (one audit team alone within the firm) failed to notice the big picture. PWC are not Andersen, nor are they auditing off balance sheet vehicles for the negotiations. They are auditing a cost structure and proposals thereon. What parallel that has to Enron I fail to see at all.
This is simply crass stupidity on the part of a union who neither understands BA's proposal or the true cost to the company of their own proposal.
Anyway - competitors costs - please feel free to post full details of salary and expense structure, and operational flexibility structure in the contracts of Lufthansa, AF-KLM and Iberia crew. We all like an open debate.
Go on.
Enron was a company that operated on the fringes, but within, US accounting rules for the purpose of hiding undislosed losses in off-balance sheet vehicles that were not disclosed to shareholders. Andersen (one audit team alone within the firm) failed to notice the big picture. PWC are not Andersen, nor are they auditing off balance sheet vehicles for the negotiations. They are auditing a cost structure and proposals thereon. What parallel that has to Enron I fail to see at all.
This is simply crass stupidity on the part of a union who neither understands BA's proposal or the true cost to the company of their own proposal.
Anyway - competitors costs - please feel free to post full details of salary and expense structure, and operational flexibility structure in the contracts of Lufthansa, AF-KLM and Iberia crew. We all like an open debate.
Go on.